Any defense against Intimidate?


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, one of my players has designed a character to take advantage of the Intimidate skill. I usually do not balk about his use of the skill, but a new situation has arisen.

Currently, he is using Intimidate on a Raging Barbarian. The Barbarian is a higher level, is raging, and has a much higher Intimidate bonus than the PC. Yet, he is now scared of the PC.

Is there something I am missing that can be done to limit this skill?


Hmm.

Besides giving him more hit dice or a higher Wisdom (I think), you could always say he's just shaken. Because that's what intimidating does.

It takes a standard action and lasts a round plus a round for every 5 above the DC.

A lot of people actually misuse the Intimidate rules.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It is a fear effect, so anything that gives immunity to that.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Can a currently Intimidated NPC use Intimidate against the PC while still Shaken? I cannot see anything in the rules that prevents it, though there will obviously be a -2 penalty to the skill check.


bigrig107 wrote:

Hmm.

Besides giving him more hit dice or a higher Wisdom (I think), you could always say he's just shaken. Because that's what intimidating does.

It takes a standard action and lasts a round plus a round for every 5 above the DC.

A lot of people actually misuse the Intimidate rules.

You can also force someone to be friendly for a short duration.


Buri Reborn wrote:
bigrig107 wrote:

Hmm.

Besides giving him more hit dice or a higher Wisdom (I think), you could always say he's just shaken. Because that's what intimidating does.

It takes a standard action and lasts a round plus a round for every 5 above the DC.

A lot of people actually misuse the Intimidate rules.

You can also force someone to be friendly for a short duration.

That's not really a combat option, as it requires 1 minute of conversation.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

He is not scared of the PC. He is shaken by the PC's "Prowess". The (combat) intimidated Barbar is SHAKEN. Nothing more, nothing less. Now, how would a Barbar that has been shamed react? Face/Axe comes to mind. Use intim at your own peril.

In Non-Combat situations, Intim can force a NPC to behave 'Friendly' for a short time. However, after that all bets are off. Maybe the NPC has friends and does not like to be made a fool of. And, is keen on making an example of people that bully or insult him...

Again, use Intimidate at your own peril.


Yes the barbarian can use intimidate on the bard.
From an RP point of view I'd have the barbarian be angered because of his fear and let him vent that fear on the bard's friends first.

Defenses against intimidate: Immunity to fear is the best. Then there are some traits/abilities/perhaps even feats, not sure that increase the DC needed to intimidate you a little.


Just because you're scary doesn't mean you cannot be scared.


Calth wrote:
That's not really a combat option, as it requires 1 minute of conversation.

Truth. It's best as a precursor before combat, perhaps even the trigger of combat once the friendliness wears off.


I don't think immunity to fear will help. The Whispering Tyrant was able to demoralize the Knights of Ozem, an order of Paladins lead by Arazni, when the Tyrant defeated her and threw her lifeless body among their ranks. Yes, he is a wizard-king lich and he did kill a demigod in front of her order, but if paladins are immune to fear, then how did he demoralize them.


BlingerBunny wrote:
I don't think immunity to fear will help. The Whispering Tyrant was able to demoralize the Knights of Ozem, an order of Paladins lead by Arazni, when the Tyrant defeated her and threw her lifeless body among their ranks. Yes, he is a wizard-king lich and he did kill a demigod in front of her order, but if paladins are immune to fear, then how did he demoralize them.

Special trumps general. He might have an ability that removes or ignores fear immunity. Like there are abilities that allow to deal fire damage to fire immune creatures.


Green Eyed Liar wrote:

So, one of my players has designed a character to take advantage of the Intimidate skill. I usually do not balk about his use of the skill, but a new situation has arisen.

Currently, he is using Intimidate on a Raging Barbarian. The Barbarian is a higher level, is raging, and has a much higher Intimidate bonus than the PC. Yet, he is now scared of the PC.

Is there something I am missing that can be done to limit this skill?

Depending on the level of said barbarian, give him Fearless Rage. While raging, he is now immune to shaken, and therefore Intimidate.

Also, as per the somewhat recent dev ruling, immunity to fear or immunity to mind-affecting effects will make you immune to Intimidate, as the use of said skill is a mundane, mind-affecting fear effect.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
BlingerBunny wrote:
I don't think immunity to fear will help. The Whispering Tyrant was able to demoralize the Knights of Ozem, an order of Paladins lead by Arazni, when the Tyrant defeated her and threw her lifeless body among their ranks. Yes, he is a wizard-king lich and he did kill a demigod in front of her order, but if paladins are immune to fear, then how did he demoralize them.

The Whispering Tyrant is probably a mythic creature.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Just because you're scary doesn't mean you cannot be scared.

Or to switch this around, based on GEL's comment about the Intimidated (Demoralise) NPC Intimidating (Demoralise) a PC - If you are scared, or in this case shaken can you be scary?

Can a shaken creature use Intimidate to demoralise? As GEL says, there is nothing in the rules preventing it, and there is a penalty, but it is a good question.


BlingerBunny wrote:
I don't think immunity to fear will help. The Whispering Tyrant was able to demoralize the Knights of Ozem, an order of Paladins lead by Arazni, when the Tyrant defeated her and threw her lifeless body among their ranks. Yes, he is a wizard-king lich and he did kill a demigod in front of her order, but if paladins are immune to fear, then how did he demoralize them.

Because some people cant stick to their own stuff.

Antipaladins have some thing that negates pala's fear immunity tho.


A piece of fluff text description of a one off mythic event is not something that covers rule mechanics.
Also demoralised does not mean intimidate skill used to induce shaken , it means
1.to deprive (a person or persons) of spirit, courage, discipline, etc.; destroy the morale of:
The continuous barrage demoralized the infantry.
2.
to throw (a person) into disorder or confusion; bewilder:
We were so demoralized by that one wrong turn that we were lost for hours.
3.
to corrupt or undermine the morals of.

In this context convincing the Knights of Ozem that they had no hope of victory would demoralise them without any of them being subject to any sort of fear effect


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Arachnofiend wrote:
BlingerBunny wrote:
I don't think immunity to fear will help. The Whispering Tyrant was able to demoralize the Knights of Ozem, an order of Paladins lead by Arazni, when the Tyrant defeated her and threw her lifeless body among their ranks. Yes, he is a wizard-king lich and he did kill a demigod in front of her order, but if paladins are immune to fear, then how did he demoralize them.
The Whispering Tyrant is probably a mythic creature.

Is definitely a mythic creature.


BlingerBunny wrote:
I don't think immunity to fear will help. The Whispering Tyrant was able to demoralize the Knights of Ozem, an order of Paladins lead by Arazni, when the Tyrant defeated her and threw her lifeless body among their ranks. Yes, he is a wizard-king lich and he did kill a demigod in front of her order, but if paladins are immune to fear, then how did he demoralize them.

There is a difference between causing fear and convincing people that they cannot win. The latter also describes being demoralized. And thinking that victory is outside your grasp is no the same thing as being afraid.


What exactly is the PC doing that you want to limit?

In combat, it only lasts 1 rnd (+1 rnd for every 5 above the DC) and would make the Barbarian shaken. Hardly abusive.

In social use, he might be able to intimidate the Barbarian to offer him limited assistance for 10 minutes to 1 hour, and then the effect fades and lowers the NPC's disposition toward the PC.

It seems the social aspect lends itself more toward abuse than the combat, but the extent to which an intimidated NPC assists, gives information, or takes an action directed by the PC, is up to the GM.


Otherwhere wrote:

What exactly is the PC doing that you want to limit?

In combat, it only lasts 1 rnd (+1 rnd for every 5 above the DC) and would make the Barbarian shaken. Hardly abusive.

In social use, he might be able to intimidate the Barbarian to offer him limited assistance for 10 minutes to 1 hour, and then the effect fades and lowers the NPC's disposition toward the PC.

It seems the social aspect lends itself more toward abuse than the combat, but the extent to which an intimidated NPC assists, gives information, or takes an action directed by the PC, is up to the GM.

You will find that characters built around intimidate will routinely cause their opponent to be shaken for 4+ rounds, which is to say the rest of the fight.

Shaken itself may not end the fight, but that -2 to saves makes it much more likely that the caster will end the fight with a SoD/S spell.

Grand Lodge

Ashram wrote:
Also, as per the somewhat recent dev ruling, immunity to fear or immunity to mind-affecting effects will make you immune to Intimidate, as the use of said skill is a mundane, mind-affecting fear effect.

Where was this said?

Grand Lodge

claudekennilol wrote:
Ashram wrote:
Also, as per the somewhat recent dev ruling, immunity to fear or immunity to mind-affecting effects will make you immune to Intimidate, as the use of said skill is a mundane, mind-affecting fear effect.
Where was this said?

The FAQ from January 30th this year.

Sovereign Court

thorin001 wrote:
Otherwhere wrote:

What exactly is the PC doing that you want to limit?

In combat, it only lasts 1 rnd (+1 rnd for every 5 above the DC) and would make the Barbarian shaken. Hardly abusive.

In social use, he might be able to intimidate the Barbarian to offer him limited assistance for 10 minutes to 1 hour, and then the effect fades and lowers the NPC's disposition toward the PC.

It seems the social aspect lends itself more toward abuse than the combat, but the extent to which an intimidated NPC assists, gives information, or takes an action directed by the PC, is up to the GM.

You will find that characters built around intimidate will routinely cause their opponent to be shaken for 4+ rounds, which is to say the rest of the fight.

Heck - my current level 7 character has caused an opponent to be shaken for more than 30 rounds after frightening it for 1. (Heck yeah Enforcer/Blade of Mercy!)


Just a Guess wrote:
BlingerBunny wrote:
I don't think immunity to fear will help. The Whispering Tyrant was able to demoralize the Knights of Ozem, an order of Paladins lead by Arazni, when the Tyrant defeated her and threw her lifeless body among their ranks. Yes, he is a wizard-king lich and he did kill a demigod in front of her order, but if paladins are immune to fear, then how did he demoralize them.
Special trumps general. He might have an ability that removes or ignores fear immunity. Like there are abilities that allow to deal fire damage to fire immune creatures.

Or, not everything Paizo does is married to mechanics. People on these boards surprisingly miss the fact that time and again there is a game beyond the game. You can role play and have whole sessions where you don't touch dice or involve mechanics at all. Being "demoralized" isn't just some specific mechanic that can only happen one certain way. Paladins can get bummed out. They're not perfect beings. This "it's not in the rules"/"it's not on my sheet" mentality needs to be put to rest. If you, as a player, wanted to continue fighting like normal when the herald of your god was just slain before you would make me flip a table as a GM.


Sweet, so my Oracle can get around a monster's immunity to fear by claiming that my intimidation demoralization check is just trying to bum the guy out.


_Ozy_ wrote:
Sweet, so my Oracle can get around a monster's immunity to fear by claiming that my intimidation demoralization check is just trying to bum the guy out.

double facepalm


Joke, dude, put the table down. ;)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think you just demoralized him.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Otherwhere wrote:

What exactly is the PC doing that you want to limit?

In combat, it only lasts 1 rnd (+1 rnd for every 5 above the DC) and would make the Barbarian shaken. Hardly abusive.

In social use, he might be able to intimidate the Barbarian to offer him limited assistance for 10 minutes to 1 hour, and then the effect fades and lowers the NPC's disposition toward the PC.

It seems the social aspect lends itself more toward abuse than the combat, but the extent to which an intimidated NPC assists, gives information, or takes an action directed by the PC, is up to the GM.

He is not abusing anything, and everything he is doing is legal. I just feel Intimidate is able to affect things it should not.

The -2 to hit does affect iterative attacks. It is also tough on the saving throw front.


Yes, it is tough on the Intim'd subject. But that's the point. Please don't be a DM that gets upset with the player's success :)

Oh, and I still think the shaken but much tougher Barbarian can still go and take some revenge out of the pip-squeak's hide :D


JohnHawkins wrote:

A piece of fluff text description of a one off mythic event is not something that covers rule mechanics.

Also demoralised does not mean intimidate skill used to induce shaken , it means
1.to deprive (a person or persons) of spirit, courage, discipline, etc.; destroy the morale of:
The continuous barrage demoralized the infantry.
2.
to throw (a person) into disorder or confusion; bewilder:
We were so demoralized by that one wrong turn that we were lost for hours.
3.
to corrupt or undermine the morals of.

In this context convincing the Knights of Ozem that they had no hope of victory would demoralise them without any of them being subject to any sort of fear effect

All I'm saying is that the shaken condition, through intimidation, could be a demoralizing attack to instill doubt, not fear.


To the OP: The main counter to intimidate is to use things that are immune to fear or fear effects. You can fluff it anyway you want, but intimidate will always be a fear effect.

Don't get me wrong, intimidate is great and all, but it's just a one shot pony, succeed or fail. If you're really having trouble with it, just slap on the undead template things or make them run into oozes or things that are just too mindless to be intimidated.

Also, I -think- intimidate is a mind affecting effect? Not sure, but if it is, anything that gives you immunity to that works as well.


If you don't want to be demoralized by the Intimidate skill you could invest in the Sense Motive skill. I don't find the Intimidate skill unfair, but I do think the mechanics for using it are a little clunky. I'd rather see the results based on a Will save since the monster's bonus to Will saves is a number that the DM is almost certain to have handy whereas very few DMs seem to calculate the DC to Intimidate a monster before somebody attempts it even if the party has a PC who uses Intimidate in most fights.

Sometimes DMs are also reluctant to tell the players a monster's hit dice and Wisdom modifier. This can cause the calculations to take a while since I often have to tell the DM the formula for calculating the DC repeatedly. There are similar problems with using Bluff for feinting (though maybe that would be better opposed with a Reflex save)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Any defense against Intimidate? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.