Imagine a hypothetical collaboration facilitated by Mr Dancey


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

This may seem like a pie in the sky notion but pie in the sky notions that succeed are called groundbreaking events. Ryan has a bit of a history of bringing companies together for a mutually beneficial outcome(WOTC saving D&D). This UE4 demo is 100 square miles of rolling hills forests lakes and you guessed it GRASS(in fact it has a special grass script relating the grass composition/dispersion to the textures). What if Ryan had a meeting with the Leads on this project with the simple question what could UE4 do for PFO? This is a fascinating talk about how this open world demo was built. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clakekAHQx0

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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He'd bring in his network guy, the tech conversation would go like:
"Here's what we have to do and have already done. What libraries do you have that do this, and how quickly can we adapt them to our needs?"
"The libraries don't exist."
(Up to the director)
"Shifting the networking code will take six months and three people."

"Here's the requirements for the shaders that we use."
"You'll have to redo all of that."
(Up)
"Graphics will take ten months, four people, plus art."

After a few more cases of "you'd have to redo that entirely", the time allotted for the meeting is over.

Goblin Squad Member

I didn't get any traction in my previous thread, so I'll create a new one!

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:

He'd bring in his network guy, the tech conversation would go like:

"Here's what we have to do and have already done. What libraries do you have that do this, and how quickly can we adapt them to our needs?"
"The libraries don't exist."
(Up to the director)
"Shifting the networking code will take six months and three people."

"Here's the requirements for the shaders that we use."
"You'll have to redo all of that."
(Up)
"Graphics will take ten months, four people, plus art."

After a few more cases of "you'd have to redo that entirely", the time allotted for the meeting is over.

first id like to point out where the negativity is starting in my threads(and it sure as F aint me with maby two exceptions). Moving on despite the utterly retarded notion that transferring ALL art assets would take over a month, if everything did need to be redone it would take waaaay lesss time in UE4. DeciusButus do you work for unity by any chance?

Goblin Squad Member

Kadere wrote:
I didn't get any traction in my previous thread, so I'll create a new one!

Not what happend at all I was just watching all the GDC 2015 vids. I saw that one was inspired and started a thread about it. The response is typical of you forum tyrant's.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pyronous Rath wrote:
This may seem like a pie in the sky notion but pie in the sky notions that succeed are called groundbreaking events. Ryan has a bit of a history of bringing companies together for a mutually beneficial outcome(WOTC saving D&D).

For a fair number of us though "that mutually beneficial outcome" included the unapologetic destruction of the original network campaign, Living City.


<Just imagine I did another thought out reply in this space that will be casually ignored via some random promotional material link and the goal of doggedly pursuing an agenda that will never be picked up by GW for fairly obvious reasons>

Goblin Squad Member

G&S Thannon Forsworn wrote:
<Just imagine I did another thought out reply in this space that will be casually ignored via some random promotional material link and the goal of doggedly pursuing an agenda that will never be picked up by GW for fairly obvious reasons>

I had to imagine a thought out reply from you in the first place because you have never downloaded UE4....It's a bit like having a brick layer try to advise an apprentice mason on weather to use sandstone limestone or slate for a patio. He may know how to make a brick driveway that has similarities but hes clueless about stone.

Goblin Squad Member

Sometimes when we want something badly enough, it's hard to see opposition as reasonable. There's nothing wrong with wanting what you want, but not all, or even most, of the responses here are knee-jerk. There are at least a couple of trained programmers in this collection of conversations that believe the underlying premise is underestimating the difficulty of switching engines at this point.

It might well produce a superior product. The game's existence is in a fragile state, and probably couldn't survive the attempt to find out.

Goblin Squad Member

Pyronous Rath wrote:
Kadere wrote:
I didn't get any traction in my previous thread, so I'll create a new one!
Not what happend at all I was just watching all the GDC 2015 vids. I saw that one was inspired and started a thread about it. The response is typical of you forum tyrant's.

To be a tyrant, you need to have some sort of authority. I don't - I just disagree with you. Do you feel oppressed?

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

Sometimes when we want something badly enough, it's hard to see opposition as reasonable. There's nothing wrong with wanting what you want, but not all, or even most, of the responses here are knee-jerk. There are at least a couple of trained programmers in this collection of conversations that believe the underlying premise is underestimating the difficulty of switching engines at this point.

It might well produce a superior product. The game's existence is in a fragile state, and probably couldn't survive the attempt to find out.

What I want badly is for the game to succeed. With the current player population my understanding is it will not. Wasting 4 million by gently rocking pfo into the grave is not a strategy for success.

Be honest do you really thing at the current rate of progress with unity pfo's population could be doubled in 6 months? I don't see where all those players would come from or more importantly why they would come. I dare the fanboy's to go on some normal mmo forums and try arguing pfo's case. Go get GW the players they need by all means.

The truth is that in UE4 with ZERO coding using only the blueprint system the auction house would have been done and done better in a day or two. Changing around the vault system would have taken a few hours. I am not speaking out of my arse here UE4's visual scripting/blueprint system is that streamlined. If you don't believe me maby instead of just refuting me because of what you have experienced you should go look at UE4. In fact if you would like me to take any reply seriously you will start you reply with "I downloaded UE4 and played with the blueprint/content creation system and...".

Goblin Squad Member

I downloaded UE4 and played with the blueprint/content creation system is what I would say if there was any point in doing it. Even if an engine change could be accomplished in 3 months, which it can't, it would be too late. It would kill the game. PFO can not afford to backward, at all. It has to move forward, quickly. I won't bother you with any more responses, though I will continue to read your posts and seeth quietly at your inability to understand that.

Goblin Squad Member

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Cal B,

There is no one more blind than those who refuse to see. I avoid this Troll (in the literal and figurative sense) as he clearly understands the implications of what he is asking for, but refuses to take any feedback, criticism, information or viewpoints different from his.

As to the Graphics, some nice info below.

rsdancey wrote:

Originally posted by ElirionLoth:
Do you guys think it would attract more players if you spent some development time each cycle improving the graphics and animations

No, I don't.

Frankly, we can't afford to move the needle enough on graphics and animations to make the people who have issues with them now give us a passing grade. It's not just a matter of a few weeks of work. A major overhaul to get the graphics anywhere close to "AAA" (which is what they're comparing us to) is a $10 million, 20-30 person commitment. It just does not make sense to pursue that goal.

A lot of people who see it "live" in high quality (as opposed to the low quality a lot of streamers use) are really surprised by how good the game looks when you play it. Industry folks who have taken a look are also pretty impressed. Over time, we'll iterate on the graphics like we do on everything else, and we have been doing so all along. Folks who remember what the game looked like when we started the Alpha test will tell you that we've already made huge improvements.

Some of what people critique isn't graphics or animation. It's system-level functions like causing the characters to turn and face their targets when they attack (which also requires camera moves, etc.) We don't have kinematics in the game so hits don't cause visible reactions on targets yet. And the visual effects ("VFX") are very basic. Those are things we are going to be spending time on in the near future (actually, we spent a lot of time on some of the kinematics in the work for Early Enrollment v6, but they're not ready to deploy yet). Those kinds of improvements have a big impact on how people perceive the game's "graphic quality". Same deal with things like making the grass look better, and reducing the tiling effects on steep slopes. Little things, but big impacts. It all just takes time, and we have to allocate that time wisely and balance it against all the other things that people want, like more weapons (requires graphics & animations), more monsters (ditto), more roles (ditto), more structures (ditto), etc.

Goblin Squad Member

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I just want to be able to stab people my character is standing right next to. Is that to much to ask for?

Goblin Squad Member

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Gol Phyllain wrote:
I just want to be able to stab people my character is standing right next to. Is that to much to ask for?

I could not stab them here or there.

I could not like them anywhere.
I could not stab them where I am.
I could not stab them, Sam-I-Am.


Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Gol Phyllain wrote:
I just want to be able to stab people my character is standing right next to. Is that to much to ask for?

I could not stab them here or there.

I could not like them anywhere.
I could not stab them where I am.
I could not stab them, Sam-I-Am.

Could have been so much better with last line

I could not stab them Phyl-li-an

Goblin Squad Member

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Gol Phyllain wrote:
I just want to be able to stab people my character is standing right next to. Is that to much to ask for?

not with UE4

Goblin Squad Member

GripGuiness wrote:

Could have been so much better with last line

I could not stab them Phyl-li-an

but that's not his name. Pretty sure Phyllain is two syllables.

Probably should have been "Gol Phyllain" or maybe "goblinworks."

And if I hadn't missed changing the second "like" to a "stab."


my advice?, take ur troll to stroll in "greener pastures", like i did. this one wont get any better.


Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
GripGuiness wrote:

Could have been so much better with last line

I could not stab them Phyl-li-an

but that's not his name. Pretty sure Phyllain is two syllables.

Probably should have been "Gol Phyllain" or maybe "goblinworks."

And if I hadn't missed changing the second "like" to a "stab."

Change stab to fillet and it's all good.

Goblin Squad Member

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Maybe they should convert to this engine.

hmm:
Sorry, I don't like being dismissive (although Pyronous often is, I'm afraid), but I felt this was too funny to pass up.

Goblin Squad Member

Kabal362 wrote:
my advice?, take ur troll to stroll in "greener pastures", like i did. this one wont get any better.

It's funny, the game has already gotten better in the almost-three months since EE began, but people still like to make a point to come onto these boards to slam the game.

Personally, I think the game has mostly room for improvement, it's definitely far from perfect, but I love the vision for the game and I see where it's going. It will take time for it to get there, of course.

I hope GW/Paizo has planned their finances such that this game can at least survive long enough to get to the point where it has enough content that one could say it's ready for a release that is closer to the amount of content with which other MMOs release. Then we could start to see whether the game continues to grow incrementally enough to be sustainable, or whether it appears that the writing is on the wall, as has happened with many other MMOs.

But to come here and spew a highly subjective opinion that the game "won't get any better" is in poor taste, in my (also highly subjective) opinion. The game is not for you in some way or another, we get it. Please take your money elsewhere and stop coming back, trying to poison this community.


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Alzaric wrote:
Kabal362 wrote:
my advice?, take ur troll to stroll in "greener pastures", like i did. this one wont get any better.

It's funny, the game has already gotten better in the almost-three months since EE began, but people still like to make a point to come onto these boards to slam the game.

Personally, I think the game has mostly room for improvement, it's definitely far from perfect, but I love the vision for the game and I see where it's going. It will take time for it to get there, of course.

I hope GW/Paizo has planned their finances such that this game can at least survive long enough to get to the point where it has enough content that one could say it's ready for a release that is closer to the amount of content with which other MMOs release. Then we could start to see whether the game continues to grow incrementally enough to be sustainable, or whether it appears that the writing is on the wall, as has happened with many other MMOs.

But to come here and spew a highly subjective opinion that the game "won't get any better" is in poor taste, in my (also highly subjective) opinion. The game is not for you in some way or another, we get it. Please take your money elsewhere and stop coming back, trying to poison this community.

we are talking about "the grass", it wont get in a state cool enough for us anytime soon.

Goblin Squad Member

Shifting engines is very rarely easy or quick. We would need to measure the perceived increase in quality as well as whether it would speed future feature development with the time it would take to get back to where we are now. In most, not all, cases that equation does not pan out.


Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
GripGuiness wrote:

Could have been so much better with last line

I could not stab them Phyl-li-an

but that's not his name. Pretty sure Phyllain is two syllables.

Probably should have been "Gol Phyllain" or maybe "goblinworks."

And if I hadn't missed changing the second "like" to a "stab."

You are correct ... I got the name wrong ... apologies to all involved

Goblin Squad Member

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I don't think the engine change is the answer for "better graphics". I'd suggest a re-design of the SCALE of representation of everything to fit:-

1. Perspective
2. Faster Development
3. Leaner/Cheaper Graphical development
4. Unity of Aesthetic of Design + Art

I explained this previously: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s202&page=2?UDK4-Just-Went-Free#58

There's a game called Fallen London http://www.failbettergames.com/fallen-london/ and it has strong story-telling, it does not need stunning cutting edge Engine.

I think a lot of PFO would work just fine with the above SCALE change and be more conducive to creating a simulated fantasy world.

The vids of running, combat look like gameplay from 10 years ago and I think it's the EQ/WOW perspective that is always going to be compared to single player games or other non-truly-massively mo games.

If you remember EVE combat turns into dots.

I think it's the story + social + (massive) scale that could make PFO.

I just worry that the perspective choice of WOW/EQ is too much baggage from old systems to serve the above?

You saw great stories in FTL for example and the characters were tiny yet characterful by the end of the story!

Ooh, here's another one on story and change: Upsilon Circuit = a dungeon-crawl live feed with audience "interaction" and x1 chance only per person (ever) with only x8 characters playing during the daily 3hr live feed per day or something like that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue0C7iHMwUM

This focus on sharing story I think is how to think about PFO -> rest eg graphics

Goblin Squad Member

I don't know what the cause of this is, but when grouped, combat animations frequently stop completely. There is no indication that my character is doing anything, let alone actually participating in combat.

I've also noticed that keystroke registering is either very delayed or not occurring, and I was forced to hit the attack keys a 2nd or even 3rd time.

Also noticed, although this is infrequent, a spontaneous switch from one weapon to another. This unfortunately occurred while trying to heal a party member, and I ended up shooting him with Overdraw.

Animations are not just a matter of visuals, they produce the perception that the mechanics of combat are "clunky".

Having to log out when dying is also a major issue, but that is likely being caused by something other than the engine.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Bluddwolf wrote:


Also noticed, although this is infrequent, a spontaneous switch from one weapon to another. This unfortunately occurred while trying to heal a party member, and I ended up shooting him with Overdraw.

"Accident"

;)


Bluddwolf wrote:


Also noticed, although this is infrequent, a spontaneous switch from one weapon to another. This unfortunately occurred while trying to heal a party member, and I ended up shooting him with Overdraw.

Who says there is no roleplay in PFO? Classic CE! Well played!

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