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I noticed that paladins with the Oath against Fiends can cast Plane Shift as a 4th level spell.
Is now this spell capable of being cast from a wand? (Assuming that the paladin crafts himself the wand)
Any repercussion?
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Yup, this is completely craftable. Repercussions may include an increased need for the planar adaptation spell some slight stomach queasiness which is easily solved with some crackers. :)
Technically, yes, wands of it can exist.
But they should only be craftable by paladins with the craft wand feat.
If I were your GM you would need to be the paladin and have the feat craft wand. It would not be available for sale on the general market, as the likelihood of having a level 13 oath against fiends paladin with craft wands feat should be incredibly small. Thus, it would be extremely unlikely to see this available on the market.
By the same token, I don't allow the general existence of items based on the summoner spell list because it gets several spells at lower levels than wizards do. The summoner should really be modified to have 9th level spell casting progression.
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That's not true. A paladin can supply the spell to anyone else who had the craft wand feat.Wrong. Potion makers, scroll writers, and wand crafters MUST know the spell to create the respective items in question.
Perhaps you could provide a source for those not in the know?
To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the wand: 375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required (one for each charge). Material components are consumed when work begins, but focuses are not. A focus used in creating a wand can be reused. The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand's creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)
Crafting a wand requires 1 day per each 1,000 gp of the base price.
Cooperative Crafting
Your assistance makes item crafting far more efficient.
Prerequisites: 1 rank in any Craft skill, any item creation feat.
Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting mundane and magical items. You must both possess the relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.
Cooperative crafting would allow for an exception, but would be required for two people to work on a wand together.
Of course, because of the requirements the paladin would already be able to craft it himself since the use of the feat would require him to have craft wand.
Those are general item creature rules. The rules for crafting wands are more specific and must be followed.
EDIT: Ninja'd by four posts. Whatever, my point was solid, so I'm leaving my post. :)
Sigh.
Look, you're all quoting the wrong bits at each other.
The part Claxon quotes is mentioned in every magic item entry.
The part _Ozy_ quotes is not the full text.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.
Then, here...
Activation: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
Okay, now that all of it has been properly cited, the discussion over which parts take precedence can continue.
Technically, yes, wands of it can exist.
But they should only be craftable by paladins with the craft wand feat.
If I were your GM you would need to be the paladin and have the feat craft wand. It would not be available for sale on the general market, as the likelihood of having a level 13 oath against fiends paladin with craft wands feat should be incredibly small. Thus, it would be extremely unlikely to see this available on the market.
By the same token, I don't allow the general existence of items based on the summoner spell list because it gets several spells at lower levels than wizards do. The summoner should really be modified to have 9th level spell casting progression.
I disagree, do you know what the market is for that? Just because it is not accessible to some people but is accessible to others should not lessen the chances of finding it but heighten it! Summoners and paladins are unique in their ability to craft these things so any smart person would flood the market with those things and make a quick buck.
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Summoners and paladins are unique in their ability to craft these things so any smart person would flood the market with those things and make a quick buck.
It is well known that high level Paladins are just in it for the money.
Summoners and paladins are unique in their ability to craft these things so any smart person would flood the market with those things and make a quick buck.It is well known that high level Paladins are just in it for the money.
I said summoners and paladins.
Paladins in need of cash might be paladins trying to help out some cause. Perhaps a paladin of a lesser deity has found a local church of his deity in ruin and needs the cash to help fund repairs.
This is a revenue stream that is usually not available to them so they would of course take advantage of it.
Aren't paladins of that high level off fighting demons and devils? ;)
Plus, that's a pretty specific flavor of Paladin, most paladins don't get plane shift.
Then not FLOODING the market but the summoners would definitely be flooding the market like crazy nonstop.
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It is well known that high level Paladins are just in it for the money.
In my campaign world, most large paladin orders are funded almost exclusively by selling wands, potions, and scrolls of lesser restoration to magic item shops. Of course, you don't need to be so high level to make those.
Then not FLOODING the market but the summoners would definitely be flooding the market like crazy nonstop.
To what end? The market for wands in general, much less specific wands like these, would be extremely limited in most fantasy worlds.
The ones where you can't throw a stone and hit a mid- to high-level adventurer.
If that's the kind of story you wish to tell, more power to you. In my world Paladins who survive to that level, are so rare, they don't have time for such nonsense.It is well known that high level Paladins are just in it for the money.In my campaign world, most large paladin orders are funded almost exclusively by selling wands, potions, and scrolls of lesser restoration to magic item shops. Of course, you don't need to be so high level to make those.
Saving a church of your deity is not nonsense to a paladin.
Then not FLOODING the market but the summoners would definitely be flooding the market like crazy nonstop.To what end? The market for wands in general, much less specific wands like these, would be extremely limited in most fantasy worlds.
The ones where you can't throw a stone and hit a mid- to high-level adventurer.
To the end that they are as common as the others of the same level really.
Yeah, summoners have an insane list. Maybe there's a secret cabal of wizards who go around and threaten summoners to keep them out of the market. ;)
You jest but that is the only possible thing that could happen for the worlds run by the above people who don't permit summoner-made magic stuffs.
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I take the specific for wands over the general for all created items.I saved this quote because it's come up before:
Spell-Trigger & Spell-Completion Items
- a constant debate I've seen here on the boards and around my own gaming table (with 2 DMs we have 2 different house rules). (1) Does the *crafter* (the person with the feat) personally have to have the spell? Examples: Can a Sorcerer (with the spell) and Wizard (with the feat) team up to create a scroll of one of the Sorc's spells known?
(2) The same thing would apply towards any other combination of classes where 1 character has the creation feat and another (or multiples) have the spells
(3) Would there possibly be a question of divine vs arcane getting in the way (such as wizard with scribe scroll and cleric with flame strike)?
(4) Here's another variation: Could a sorc (or any other arcane class) teach a wizard a spell to put in his spellbook directly? Or would they be forced to go through the scroll creation route?
(5) Even trickier: could a multiclass Wiz/Sorc (say 5 & 5) transcribe their spells known into their spellbook?Quick answer, as these have come up several times in the thread.
1) That sort of team-up works fine.
2) That sort of team-up works fine.
3) It's not a problem.
4) That's not clear, but isn't technically part of the item crafting rules.
5) No official rule for this, but I'd let him (I recall we had a discussion about that back at Wizards for 3E, and Jonathan felt it wasn't a problem).I don't know if it's RAW, but when both SKR and Johnathon Tweet, the guy who literally created the system we are all playing, say that team-ups should be allowed for crafting wands, I think that makes it RAI.
...
and since apparently people are apparently discussing house rules now, I'll say that my rewritten summoner has its spell list adjusted so that its...
Unusual nerfing...?
Not sure why you bring it up?| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So your Paladins save their churches.... by wielding wands of plane shift???If that's the kind of story you wish to tell, more power to you. In my world Paladins who survive to that level, are so rare, they don't have time for such nonsense.It is well known that high level Paladins are just in it for the money.In my campaign world, most large paladin orders are funded almost exclusively by selling wands, potions, and scrolls of lesser restoration to magic item shops. Of course, you don't need to be so high level to make those.Saving a church of your deity is not nonsense to a paladin.
Then not FLOODING the market but the summoners would definitely be flooding the market like crazy nonstop.To what end? The market for wands in general, much less specific wands like these, would be extremely limited in most fantasy worlds.
The ones where you can't throw a stone and hit a mid- to high-level adventurer.
To the end that they are as common as the others of the same level really.
Yeah, summoners have an insane list. Maybe there's a secret cabal of wizards who go around and threaten summoners to keep them out of the market. ;)You jest but that is the only possible thing that could happen for the worlds run by the above people who don't permit summoner-made magic stuffs.
No silly! Not wielding, but selling!
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So your Paladins save their churches.... by wielding wands of plane shift???
When you can't convince people to come to your church, you bring your church to them.
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Sir Agariel:" Sir Lordan, we planned an assault to the hellish castle, and we have all the resources given by the king."
Sir Lordan:" I see. Are our troops well equipped and trained?"
Sir Agariel:" I'm sorry, Sir Lordan, but our troops are mostly made by untrained volunteers. They are strong willed, yet they can't stand a battle now."
Sir Lordan:" Understood. We need to spend more resources than our first expectation."
Sir Agariel:" Reason is yours, Sir Lordan. We might be powerful, but we still are just two swords."
Sir Lordan:" Bring me the Paizo-group-of-optimizers-players. It is said, in the legend, that they can alter any fate."
Sir Agariel:"Yes, Sir Lordan."
Time passes...
Sir Agariel:" Sir Lordan, they say that they cannot meet you. They say that we are actually a mere example of what can be done with optimization, all inside their imagination. They still had compiled a short list of advices."
Sir Lordan:" That's very un-respectful in our regard. Nonetheless, read what they wrote. It might help us anyway, Sir Agariel."
Sir Agariel:" That's strange, I can read: "Dump wis, sword-and-board doesn't work, exploit your class ability." This looks like a blasphemy."
Sir Lordan:" It could be a prophecy, instead. What can be done?"
Sir Agariel:" Well, royal analysts say that our rare power of moving through the planes is unmatched when money is the must. By accounting this information, we could pay for another 30 people's equipment and training."
Sir Lordan:" What we are supposed to do?"
Sir Agariel:" They say that we must "spend a feat on craft wands" to have that power. I'm not sure, but maybe it means that we should learn how to transfer our magic into other objects.
Sir Lordan:" I shall learn myself how to achieve this power. As if even I don't unsheathe my own sword, we shall bless our god with the victory of goodness."
Sir Agariel:" You are an example of enlightenment and sacrifice for all of us, Sir Lordan."
This is for the people who thinks that the only people who matters are the PC (with little to no interest in spending resources on people outside the group). And also for the people who believe that paladins should only smite harder or lay-on-hands better. They are about winning over the evilness, and not winning over a single fiend.
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There are some spells magic items that require the spell to be cast by the crafter.
As I understand it, the only spells that you can get from an outside provider, are the ones that you could bypass by upping the DC in the first place.No, none of them do. You can always use a spell from another source. This has been confirmed repeatedly by the devs.
The faq you are linking to merely says that some item's prerequisites can't be bypassed by a +5 increase to the DC.
Dude, this was laid out just a few posts back.
How are you getting that? There's nothing in the wording to suggest this would be the case.
Somewhat irrelevant anyway: the issue has been discussed by SKR as quoted above and confirmed as legal.
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Like I said, if that's the kind of Paladin stories you want to tell, fine. To me, that's like Green Lantern saving the Corps and the universe, by opening up a Haberdashery.No silly! Not wielding, but selling!So your Paladins save their churches.... by wielding wands of plane shift???If that's the kind of story you wish to tell, more power to you. In my world Paladins who survive to that level, are so rare, they don't have time for such nonsense.It is well known that high level Paladins are just in it for the money.In my campaign world, most large paladin orders are funded almost exclusively by selling wands, potions, and scrolls of lesser restoration to magic item shops. Of course, you don't need to be so high level to make those.Saving a church of your deity is not nonsense to a paladin.
Then not FLOODING the market but the summoners would definitely be flooding the market like crazy nonstop.To what end? The market for wands in general, much less specific wands like these, would be extremely limited in most fantasy worlds.
The ones where you can't throw a stone and hit a mid- to high-level adventurer.
To the end that they are as common as the others of the same level really.
Yeah, summoners have an insane list. Maybe there's a secret cabal of wizards who go around and threaten summoners to keep them out of the market. ;)You jest but that is the only possible thing that could happen for the worlds run by the above people who don't permit summoner-made magic stuffs.
That's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, and I agree that it depends on what kind of stories you want to tell.
But I would like to point out that there's something of a tradition in comic-book-type fiction of heroes using their powers to pay the bills. Some examples:
1. In the Men in Black film franchise, the titular organization is funded by patents they own on certain technology (e.g. velcro) of an alien origin.
2. Tony Stark certainly uses his powers of invention to make money, which is required to fund his superpowers. Indeed, of all of the comic book superheroes, he seems to be the only one whose power is based almost entirely on crafting feats.
3. Peter Parker and Clark Kent both use their status as superheroes surreptitiously to get ahead in their mundane careers.
I'm sure there are other good examples. The point is that I think a clever and resourceful group of paladins would use all means at their disposal to increase their power. It doesn't fit into the classic heroic conception of paladins, but as you said, it depends on what type of stories you want to tell.
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As for Clark Kent, I've never been able to view him the same way since watching Kill Bill pt 2.
Superman is my favorite superhero, and Bill is full of s~%$ in that scene. Not only is Clark the main personality and identifies himself as just another human, Bill completely got Batman wrong - Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the personality. Batman would rather be Batman 24/7, except that there would be too many questions about Bruce Wayne, where he went to, etc. etc., and that would make being Batman much harder.
Clark from Smallville is the product of the Kents' rearing, and that's who he is deep down - Superman is one mask he wears to protect his family & friends and to be an icon for the world he wants to see come about ($10 says Clark is a HUGE Trekker); Clark in Metropolis is another mask he wears to not draw attention to himself, really.
But deep down Clark/Superman is an awkward farmboy mama's boy from Kansas who could have turned into the world's biggest despot had it not been John & Martha finding him.
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2. Do we really want to model our fantasy on Marvel Comics?
Considering how powerful PF characters are, "yes". Some of us do.
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Now yal got me thinking about creating a silver surfer character now of a sorcerer with some type of bloodline to turn them a silver color floating and surfing the skies on a floating disk in the shape of a surfboard specced in shooting Rays all day.....
Tyvm my players will either love yal or hate yal lmao
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Like I said, if that's the kind of Paladin stories you want to tell, fine. To me, that's like Green Lantern saving the Corps and the universe, by opening up a Haberdashery.No silly! Not wielding, but selling!So your Paladins save their churches.... by wielding wands of plane shift???If that's the kind of story you wish to tell, more power to you. In my world Paladins who survive to that level, are so rare, they don't have time for such nonsense.It is well known that high level Paladins are just in it for the money.In my campaign world, most large paladin orders are funded almost exclusively by selling wands, potions, and scrolls of lesser restoration to magic item shops. Of course, you don't need to be so high level to make those.Saving a church of your deity is not nonsense to a paladin.
Then not FLOODING the market but the summoners would definitely be flooding the market like crazy nonstop.To what end? The market for wands in general, much less specific wands like these, would be extremely limited in most fantasy worlds.
The ones where you can't throw a stone and hit a mid- to high-level adventurer.
To the end that they are as common as the others of the same level really.
Yeah, summoners have an insane list. Maybe there's a secret cabal of wizards who go around and threaten summoners to keep them out of the market. ;)You jest but that is the only possible thing that could happen for the worlds run by the above people who don't permit summoner-made magic stuffs.That's a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, and I agree that it depends on what kind of stories you want to tell.
But I would like to point out that there's something of a tradition in comic-book-type fiction of heroes...
and as I said, if you don't want to have paladins who save their broken down churches then that is fine, but there is no reason why a summoner wouldn't abuse their unique capabilities.
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Paladins should earn their money the honorable way - by killing people and taking their stuff.
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Paladins should earn their money the honorable way - by killing people and taking their stuff.
That is apparently the general consensus.