Questions about Vika's powers


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Question 1:
Vika's blacksmith power states

"When you would discard a weapon ([] or armor) for its power, you may recharge it ([] or another card of the same type in your discard pile) instead."

Just by reading the text, if you were to take the second check mark, it would read "When you discard a weapon ... for its power ... you may recharge another card of the same type in your discard pile instead." The naive reading of this would say that the recharging of another card of the same type replaces the original discard, so you have to discard nothing. I'm guessing that is not what it is going for and instead the power should read something like:

"When you would discard a weapon ([] or armor) for its power, you may recharge it instead ([] or discard it and recharge another card of the same type in your discard pile)."

Question 2:
In the blacksmith role there is another power that says

"[] When you would bury a weapon or armor, discard it instead"

Does this combine with her other power above so that if you were to bury a weapon ([] or armor) for its power, you can recharge it instead?


The Lemb wrote:

Question 1:

Vika's blacksmith power states

"When you would discard a weapon ([] or armor) for its power, you may recharge it ([] or another card of the same type in your discard pile) instead."

Just by reading the text, if you were to take the second check mark, it would read "When you discard a weapon ... for its power ... you may recharge another card of the same type in your discard pile instead." The naive reading of this would say that the recharging of another card of the same type replaces the original discard, so you have to discard nothing. I'm guessing that is not what it is going for and instead the power should read something like:

"When you would discard a weapon ([] or armor) for its power, you may recharge it instead ([] or discard it and recharge another card of the same type in your discard pile)."

I think you've got the intent. The weapon goes in the discard pile and another weapon from your discard pile gets recharged. (And note it isn't random, which is very nice.) This is probably just a case of the premium on space.

The Lemb wrote:

Question 2:

In the blacksmith role there is another power that says

"[] When you would bury a weapon or armor, discard it instead"

Does this combine with her other power above so that if you were to bury a weapon ([] or armor) for its power, you can recharge it instead?

Hmmm....Good question. I'm going to guess no. But I'm not sure how I'd argue for that.

Sovereign Court

For question 2, I'd say yes. It completely replaces the bury, you're now discarding it for your power instead.


Yeah. As written, I'd agree. It just doesn't feel like that is how it should be. But I guess it isn't too powerful really. And it takes some power feats to get there.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Both are on the Blacksmith role, so it makes sense for me that the two powers would synergize with each other. As such, I'd go with a "yes" for Q2 both based on wording and what I feel the intent was.

For Q1, the wording does indicate you'd be able to recharge a different weapon and keep the current one, but intent-wise it seems like if you recharge a different one then you need to discard the first card. A better wording would either be what you wrote or worded as "After you discard a weapon..." (and then drop the "instead" at the end).

Sovereign Court

It does say "instead". So instead of discarding that card, you recharge one from your discard pile. That's pretty poweerful, so I could see the intent going either way, since recharging another from the pile means you'd still have to somehow discard that card first. As written, you wouldn't discard that first played card even if you are recharging a different one, but intent could be either...


Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Yeah. As written, I'd agree. It just doesn't feel like that is how it should be. But I guess it isn't too powerful really. And it takes some power feats to get there.

Actually, I'd say no. You're not discarding the weapon for its power; you're using the other ability to discard it instead of burying it.

I could see an interpretation where you're using the other ability to replace a bury with a discard.

I thought there was discussion on this type of thing before, but I can't find it.

As for the power level, I'm not too concerned; Invincible Breastplate is already a thing, and it hasn't broken the game wide open yet.


Hmmm...Maybe. So if your power replaces the action you are using for the card, it doesn't change that you did the original action for the power of the card.

The only related discussion I can think of is Lini at the Farmhouse.

Sovereign Court

It says "instead" though. I'd say it very much changes whether you did the original action.

Liberty's Edge

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Hawkmoon269 wrote:

Hmmm...Maybe. So if your power replaces the action you are using for the card, it doesn't change that you did the original action for the power of the card.

The only related discussion I can think of is Lini at the Farmhouse.

Not sure how relevant that discussion is since that talks more about the possible conflict between Lini and Location, than the possible synergy of two powers on a single card.

Golden Rule clearly wouldn't apply here - because both effects are from the character card.

Nearest thing to a related discussion I can find is probably here. But I don't see any dev answer in that thread, just a lot of speculation there as well.

Sovereign Court

It's been pointed out, by Vic I believe, on multiple occasions how imported words like "would" and "instead" are, and that they replace the alternative action.


Isn't this a conflict where you cannot use two powers in the same step of a turn, the same way that two cards of the same type is forbidden?

Liberty's Edge

I'm pretty sure you are allowed to use multiple powers in the same step.
You just can't use the SAME power multiple times (i.e. Lem can't recharge multiple cards for multiple d4's on a check).

From P10 of S&S Rule book under encountering a card: wrote:

During each of these steps, you and the other players may perfrom only the specified actions.

Players may only play cards or use powers that relate to each step (or relate to cards played or powers used in that step).
Each player may play no more than 1 card of each type during each step;
...
Each player may activate any power no more than once each step.


Mistarrel wrote:
Nearest thing to a related discussion I can find is probably here. But I don't see any dev answer in that thread, just a lot of speculation there as well.

That guy doesn't know anything.

I don't think I've looked at Vika too much since my initial read over of her after I got the Fighter Class Dec.

What she does with the played weapon when she used her upgraded power is a good question. I've obviously personally read it both ways.

Sovereign Court

iMonkey wrote:
Isn't this a conflict where you cannot use two powers in the same step of a turn, the same way that two cards of the same type is forbidden?

You can use as many powers as you want, as long as they apply to the step and you don't use the same one twice.


Andrew L Klein wrote:
iMonkey wrote:
Isn't this a conflict where you cannot use two powers in the same step of a turn, the same way that two cards of the same type is forbidden?
You can use as many powers as you want, as long as they apply to the step and you don't use the same one twice.

Ah, okay. For some reason I thought it wasn't allowed. Can't think of an instance where I might have come across it. Thanks.


I'm certainly not a reference in using the english language, but seems to me that "until instructed otherwise" as would say Mike, you can indeed both :
1) Not discard your weapon when you INSTEAD recharge a card from your discard
2) Not bury your weapon (keep it in hand) when you INSTEAD recharge a card from your discard (if you took both powers).

Basically applying the "cards/powers do what they say".

Mike? Vic?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

We are investigating.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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The synergy between those feats, and their wordings, are as intended.

If she has all those feats, she could play a weapon that would normally be buried, keep it in her hand, and recharge another weapon from her discard pile. (Of course, once she runs out of weapons in her discard pile, she'll need to recharge that weapon if she uses it again.)


Vic Wertz wrote:

The synergy between those feats, and their wordings, are as intended.

If she has all those feats, she could play a weapon that would normally be buried, keep it in her hand, and recharge another weapon from her discard pile. (Of course, once she runs out of weapons in her discard pile, she'll need to recharge that weapon if she uses it again.)

Thanks Vic. As usual, crystal clear and simple.

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