Oracle class underpowered?

[Neo2151]

What I find interesting though is that the spells you list for the Divine casters really aren't all that impressive.

Antilife Shell is a pretty impressive defense (when it works), but it does nothing to help you actually defeat your foe. And since hit-and-run tactics are incredibly expensive (feat-intensive) and not very good for the cost, most people won't take them, which makes dashing in, hitting someone on the other side of the shield, and retreating a non-option in most games.

Planar Ally is always touted as a great spell. And it is a great spell. But no one ever mentions the totally unreliable, up-to-the-GM, cost. Yes, maybe that outsider COULD help in this situation, but maybe you can't afford them.

Harm is, basically, the only really good offensive spell on the entire Divine list, and it definitely has it's drawbacks: It cannot kill your target and it must be used in melee.
It's basically the Divine version of Disintegrate, except nowhere near as good.

Greater Dispel Magic is an amazing spell, but is not Divine only (which is relevant to this particular discussion).

Spellcrash is an awful spell. You're using your action, and a spell slot, in order to stop their spell. It's just like you counterspelled (which is an awful strategy in this ruleset), except you're guaranteed to remove only your foe's weakest spell option, because the spell lost is chosen by the target, not picked at random.

[Anzyr]

Neo2151 wrote:

What I find interesting though is that the spells you list for the Divine casters really aren't all that impressive.

Antilife Shell is a pretty impressive defense (when it works), but it does nothing to help you actually defeat your foe. And since hit-and-run tactics are incredibly expensive (feat-intensive) and not very good for the cost, most people won't take them, which makes dashing in, hitting someone on the other side of the shield, and retreating a non-option in most games.

Planar Ally is always touted as a great spell. And it is a great spell. But no one ever mentions the totally unreliable, up-to-the-GM, cost. Yes, maybe that outsider COULD help in this situation, but maybe you can't afford them.

Harm is, basically, the only really good offensive spell on the entire Divine list, and it definitely has it's drawbacks: It cannot kill your target and it must be used in melee.
It's basically the Divine version of Disintegrate, except nowhere near as good.

Greater Dispel Magic is an amazing spell, but is not Divine only (which is relevant to this particular discussion).

Spellcrash is an awful spell. It's like you counterspelled (which is an awful strategy in this ruleset), except you're guaranteed to remove only your foe's weakest spell option, because the spell lost is chosen by the target, not picked at random.

Read a guide on all the good divine spells there are then come back. Harm is the only good offense? I think you aren't looking hard enough.

[avr]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Y'all might notice that the OP hasn't been back once, since posting. :-)

Have we been trolled or did we scare off the OP, do you think?

[Melkiador]

Troll or not. I just like to think of it as a chance to celebrate a versatile class

[Neo2151]

Anzyr wrote:

Neo2151 wrote:

What I find interesting though is that the spells you list for the Divine casters really aren't all that impressive.

Antilife Shell is a pretty impressive defense (when it works), but it does nothing to help you actually defeat your foe. And since hit-and-run tactics are incredibly expensive (feat-intensive) and not very good for the cost, most people won't take them, which makes dashing in, hitting someone on the other side of the shield, and retreating a non-option in most games.

Planar Ally is always touted as a great spell. And it is a great spell. But no one ever mentions the totally unreliable, up-to-the-GM, cost. Yes, maybe that outsider COULD help in this situation, but maybe you can't afford them.

Harm is, basically, the only really good offensive spell on the entire Divine list, and it definitely has it's drawbacks: It cannot kill your target and it must be used in melee.
It's basically the Divine version of Disintegrate, except nowhere near as good.

Greater Dispel Magic is an amazing spell, but is not Divine only (which is relevant to this particular discussion).

Spellcrash is an awful spell. It's like you counterspelled (which is an awful strategy in this ruleset), except you're guaranteed to remove only your foe's weakest spell option, because the spell lost is chosen by the target, not picked at random.

Read a guide on all the good divine spells there are then come back. Harm is the only good offense? I think you aren't looking hard enough.

I've read several guides on divine spells. Offense is just not that spell list's forte. Granted, when I was describing Harm, I was talking in terms of direct-damage. (I mean, what else do they have? Flame Strike? Weak sauce!)

Yes, Divine can be good at debuffing, but almost all the good offensive debuffs are touch range, and being in melee combat isn't where I want my spellcaster to be.

[kestral287]

Why not?

I mean, you're an armored caster with literally the best saves in the game. Who cares how close you are to the front lines?

[Arbane the Terrible]

kestral287 wrote:

Why not?

I mean, you're an armored caster with literally the best saves in the game. Who cares how close you are to the front lines?

Oracles only have a good Will save, for some asinine reason. And none of the stats they want maxed are save-boosters, except Con. Which I suppose makes Divine Protection a class feature you get at level 5 instead of a Feat. :-P

[Rennaivx]

Magda Luckbender wrote:

Y'all might notice that the OP hasn't been back once, since posting. :-)

Doesn't mean it's not fun. :) Could potentially be helpful for someone too, if they're thinking about playing an oracle.

[strayshift]

It's an immense class but as a spontaneous caster you build it in a very different way to a prepared caster. A lot is made of 'slightly' slower spell progression but ultimately spontaneous casting offers far more situational flexibility IF you plan your spells right and that is the trick: getting the spells you are highly likely to use. You cannot afford to take spells you'll only need very rarely.

Also the oracle can be adapted to a number of play styles, I've played two both very different. One, a flame oracle was built like a mini-one-class-mystic theurge (blast/buff/heal), the other was an oracle of life who had masses of healing (it was THAT kind of party) and who summoned for offense. Both were good to play. The game I currently run has an war oracle AND a cleric in the party (I run THOSE kind of games) and they synergise well with neither seeming stronger than the other - and theory crafting aside, whether you can enjoy playing one is ultimately what matters.

[Silver Surfer]

Are you mad?!?!?!?!

CHR to everything and anything just by itself = OP!!!!

[Silver Surfer]

Neo2151 wrote:

I've read several guides on divine spells. Offense is just not that spell list's forte. Granted, when I was describing Harm, I was talking in terms of direct-damage. (I mean, what else do they have? Flame Strike? Weak sauce!)

Yes, Divine can be good at debuffing, but almost all the good offensive debuffs are touch range, and being in melee combat isn't where I want my spellcaster to be.

Cold Ice Strike, Hellfire Ray, Elemental Assessor, Harm, Blade Barrier... all v.good

Destruction = one of the v.best single target damage dealers in the game.

And it has possibly the best mid level spell in the game.... Plane Shift at 5th = SOD

Disintegrate is good superficially but then you look closer and see that with a save its damage goes WAAAAAAAAY down

Where the cleric spell list fails in this aspect is AOE spells

Touch spells can be rectified with MM Rods or feats

[andreww]

The cleric list has some decent AoE but they tend to be status inflicting spells not damage. Burst of Radiance, Holy Smite and Order's Wrath all inflict some of the most debilitating status conditions in the game. Late game it isn't difficult to be throwing CL20+ Holy Words from level 15 onwards if you bring spell perfection into the mix.

[kestral287]

Arbane the Terrible wrote:

kestral287 wrote:

Why not?

I mean, you're an armored caster with literally the best saves in the game. Who cares how close you are to the front lines?

Oracles only have a good Will save, for some asinine reason. And none of the stats they want maxed are save-boosters, except Con. Which I suppose makes Divine Protection a class feature you get at level 5 instead of a Feat. :-P

Exactly. That feat was made for them. Hence, best saves in the game, since you should have more Cha than anyone else who can access the feat (and the Paladin).

[Just a Guess]

NyctophobicNinja wrote:

I have found it to be very weak, thoughts?

What makes you think it is?

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding or some house-rule that is to the oracle's disadvantage.

[Buri Reborn]

nicholas storm wrote:

In my opinion oracle is the most powerful class in the game. Access to CHA to AC, CHA to saves, CHA to initiative. Full level 9 cleric list. Access to some wizard spells with the right archtype/mystery.

I don't see how you can get those three in the same build. That makes it kind of disingenuous. A feat gets you saves leaving you to pick AC or initiative based on your mystery. That's two. It's not bad at all. However, to make a list like that which you have to pick from is certainly not the same as getting all of them.

[avr]

Buri Reborn wrote:

nicholas storm wrote:

In my opinion oracle is the most powerful class in the game. Access to CHA to AC, CHA to saves, CHA to initiative. Full level 9 cleric list. Access to some wizard spells with the right archtype/mystery.

I don't see how you can get those three in the same build. That makes it kind of disingenuous. A feat gets you saves leaving you to pick AC or initiative based on your mystery. That's two. It's not bad at all. However, to make a list like that which you have to pick from is certainly not the same as getting all of them.

Check out the Noble Scion feat, especially the War option. Yes, you have to spend 2 feats and take either the Lunar or Nature mystery, but it can be done in one character.

[andreww]

Buri Reborn wrote:

I don't see how you can get those three in the same build. That makes it kind of disingenuous. A feat gets you saves leaving you to pick AC or initiative based on your mystery. That's two. It's not bad at all. However, to make a list like that which you have to pick from is certainly not the same as getting all of them.

Cha to Initiative is from Noble Scion of War at level 1, a feat.

Cha to Saves is from Divine Protection at level 5, a feat.
Cha to AC is from your mystery, using Nature will also add it to CMD. Lore or Lunar add it to Reflex from level 1 but wont stack with Divine Protection.

[Buri Reborn]

avr wrote:

Check out the Noble Scion feat, especially the War option. Yes, you have to spend 2 feats and take either the Lunar or Nature mystery, but it can be done in one character.

Right. So, that displays the strength of feats and not the class itself.

[Elder Basilisk]

A number of people have written that battle and metal oracles are excellent melee combatants. What is the trick to make that so? When I started out a lvl 11 battle oracle for a red hand of doom conversion, (following the guide on this forum) I was rather underwhelmed and found an inquisitor build to be several orders of magnitude more effective-at least in theory since I haven't playtested both versions.

[avr]

Buri Reborn wrote:

Right. So, that displays the strength of feats and not the class itself.

Sort of. An oracle is the only class with access to the divine protection feat which is also a charisma based spellcaster though, and you do need the lunar, nature or lore oracle (thanks Andreww, I forgot that last) for Cha to AC.

You could play a cleric or warpriest with noble scion of war & divine protection for cha to initiative and to saves, but you wouldn't get cha to AC and you'd need to push wisdom as your casting stat, which makes it noticeably less efficient.

[avr]

Elder Basilisk wrote:

A number of people have written that battle and metal oracles are excellent melee combatants. What is the trick to make that so? When I started out a lvl 11 battle oracle for a red hand of doom conversion, (following the guide on this forum) I was rather underwhelmed and found an inquisitor build to be several orders of magnitude more effective-at least in theory since I haven't playtested both versions.

I haven't playtested (or even made up detailed builds for) a high level melee oracle either but the obvious advantages at that level are the Cha to many stats just discussed and 5th level spells (righteous might, true seeing & quickened 1st level spells). Did your builds include these?

[Kaouse]

At level 11 you can and should have access to Improved Eldritch Heritage. Those things definitely make a difference, let me tell you.

[Just a Guess]

Elder Basilisk wrote:

A number of people have written that battle and metal oracles are excellent melee combatants. What is the trick to make that so? When I started out a lvl 11 battle oracle for a red hand of doom conversion, (following the guide on this forum) I was rather underwhelmed and found an inquisitor build to be several orders of magnitude more effective-at least in theory since I haven't playtested both versions.

The battle oracle can have pseudo-charge some times per day via sudden charge. heavy armor and martial weapons (if wanted), swift action heals.

The metal oracle gets pseudo armor training, heavy armor and martial weapons (if wanted), additional movement speed and other bonuses.

As an oracle you are a full caster, have some very powerful feats you can take (like divine protection) and you can get additional revelations as a feat.

[thenovalord]

Played scythe wielding battle Oracle in serpents skull. Just trip everything
Oracle's are awesome. It's all I play in PF

[andreww]

Kaouse wrote:

At level 11 you can and should have access to Improved Eldritch Heritage. Those things definitely make a difference, let me tell you.

Not really, the Arcane spells trick doesn't work anymore and the other options are underwhelming given the number of feats you have to sink into it.

[kestral287]

andreww wrote:

Kaouse wrote:

At level 11 you can and should have access to Improved Eldritch Heritage. Those things definitely make a difference, let me tell you.

Not really, the Arcane spells trick doesn't work anymore and the other options are underwhelming given the number of feats you have to sink into it.

If you want to front-line the +2/4/6 Str makes a fair difference.

[Rycaut]

Hijacking the thread a bit but what Oracle mysteries (and curse) would suggest for a Rage Prophet build? I'm considering making a rage prophet - though it has a lot of moving parts and I don't know if the pfs char I am thinking about it for would actually work well.

(He's an urban barbarian and is Dex / CHA focused though very much not min-maxed. He's an Aasimar and is one feat so far is weapon finesse and his rage power is lesser spirit totem - if he does go rage prophet I have to take the basically wasted rage power of moment of clarity which is why I've been debating whether to go rage prophet with him)

If I don't go rage prophet Oracle is still an interesting option as I always intended to multi lass wtb him. My debate as been which class. I also am not striving for the most optimized character ever - but for one who can contribute at all levels possibly in ways that surprise his party (he's a STR 8 barbarian for example... - but between rage, lesser spirit totem and his Aasimar spell like ability to cast summon natural ally level 2 once per day he has contributed a lot at early levels)

[Eponine Lokrien Savet]

^ Battle + Lame.

[Troll Detector]

NyctophobicNinja wrote:

I have found it to be very weak, thoughts?

*beep*

[Arbane the Terrible]

Rycaut wrote:

Hijacking the thread a bit but what Oracle mysteries (and curse) would suggest for a Rage Prophet build? I'm considering making a rage prophet - though it has a lot of moving parts and I don't know if the pfs char I am thinking about it for would actually work well.

For Barbarian/Oracle, I believe Barb 8/Oracle 1 with the Lame curse is a popular choice - you get the Lame curse's level 5 immunity to fatigue, allowing you to turn all your 'once per rage' powers into 'once per turn'.

As for Mystery, pick one with Revelations that go well with face-breaking.

[bookrat]

Troll Detector wrote:

NyctophobicNinja wrote:

I have found it to be very weak, thoughts?

*beep*

I was thinking that when I first saw the thread. I'm thinking it even more since the OP hasn't responded past the first post.

[Buri Reborn]

Imo, the only strongly redeeming thing going for the oracle is that they draw from the cleric spell list. If they had their own list that was basically a subset or mix of another class's spells which is more common with the recent classes, it wouldn't be nearly as strong. The shaman/cleric differences, for instance, filter out summon monster spells and other classics like liberating command.

[catman123456]

Well here is a LV 6 Oracle. 25 pt

Oracle:

O
Half-elf oracle 6 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 42)
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +10; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception +12
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 22, touch 17, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +6 Dex)
hp 72 (6d8+24)
Fort +12, Ref +15, Will +14; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 longspear +5 (1d8+1/×3)
Oracle Spells Known (CL 6th; concentration +14)
. . 3rd (4/day)—cure serious wounds, paragon surge[ARG], rage
. . 2nd (7/day)—cure moderate wounds, dust of twilight[APG] (DC 18), instrument of agony[UC], ironskin, levitate, minor image (DC 18)
. . 1st (8/day)—bless, command (DC 17), cure light wounds, fumbletongue[UM] (DC 17), obscuring mist, protection from evil
. . 0 (at will)—create water, detect magic, enhanced diplomacy, ghost sound (DC 16), light, mage hand, mending, read magic, stabilize
. . Mystery Lunar
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 23
Base Atk +4; CMB +4; CMD 15
Feats Divine Protection[ACG], Improved Initiative, Noble Scion Of War[ISWG], Skill Focus (Use Magic Device)
Traits desperate focus, underlying principles
Skills Diplomacy +15, Knowledge (religion) +9, Perception +12, Use Magic Device +19; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Common, Elven
SQ elf blood, oracle's curse (haunted), revelations (eye of the moon, prophetic armor)
Other Gear +1 mithral shirt, +1 longspear, belt of mighty constitution +2, cape of free will +1/+2, headband of alluring charisma +2, ring of protection +1, 95 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Cape of free will +1/+2 Spend 1 power as immediate action to reroll failed Will save.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Haunted Retrieving stored gear is a Standard action or worse, dropped items land 10' away.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Prophetic Armor (Ex) You may apply your Charisma modifier instead of Dexterity to AC and Reflex saves.

Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.

Its not bad.

[Atarlost]

Dasrak wrote:

Quote:

The oracle lacks a front liner's traditional fortitude.

They have 3/4 BAB, good proficiencies, and access to a plethora of excellent self-buffing spells. If you don't build your Oracle for front-lining then you won't get much in that regard, but if you do it's excellent in that role.

They lack fortitude. It's the save for ghoul paralysis, disease (that often comes on melee attacks), poison (that is also usually on melee attacks), and permanent negative levels (usually from melee touch attacks). Clerics have it.

chbgraphicarts wrote:

The main difference between Divine and Arcane full-casters is that Arcane Casters have a much-wider and superior list of spells, while Divine Casters have a decent BAB & Hit Dice, but both categories are more potent than all other classes at the end of the day regardless (with the exception of maybe the Summoner, who is a half-full-caster in its own right).

That may be true of the druid and shaman, but the cleric has always been the dumping ground for spells to fix other peoples' problems. Every time the original developers came up with a new idea for a way to make the party miserable they gave the cleric a way to reverse it. Those all make the cleric weaker, not stronger. More of their resources have to be devoted to being the first aid kit and less to being an adventurer in their own right. Mid-day preparation into open slots has done a lot to fix the bloated spell list, but for the oracle it's every bit as bad as it's ever been.

The other big difference is that the arcane list was written with the understanding that not every wizard would learn every spell. The cleric list was written with the understanding that every cleric would learn every spell. The cleric is the game's backstop. It's okay to throw permanent negative effects at the party because there's always a cleric to clear them up the next day if not earlier, but having all the tools spread among so many different spells leaves the oracle unable to fill a cleric's shoes. They may be powerful, but they're unfit for any purpose.

They make questionable front liners because of their poor fortitude save. They fine as long as you're only facing HP damage or will saves, but that's not filling the role.

They make terrible healers. They can do HP damage maybe better than the cleric, but a monkey with maxed UMD can do HP damage adequately most of the time. Dealing with other kinds of damage and permanent debilitation requires the spells known they don't have.

They make lousy archers for lack of feats or big per attack bonuses and lousy blasters because they lack blasts that don't hit fire resistance.

They make lousy anvils. They have summon monster so they can do it, but in the most boring and table unfriendly way possible. One mystery spell per spell level can't make up for the dullness of the cleric list.

They make lousy skill monkeys at 4+int on a class with a primary stat other than int.

Oracles are like one of those flashy sports cars with no back seat and a boot the size of a wellington. You struggle to carry groceries, can't carry more than one passenger, can't carry groceries and a passenger at the same time, and get lousy gas mileage. They're powerful, but a sedan or van or wagon of pickup/ute is able to actually fill the purposes for which people own motor vehicles. An oracle is the class you tack on when you already have all the roles filled.

[Rycaut]

catman123456 wrote:

Well here is a LV 6 Oracle. 25 pt

** spoiler omitted **...

Where is the Cape of Free Will from? Not familiar with that item.

[bsctgod]

Atarlost wrote:

Oracles are like one of those flashy sports cars with no back seat and a boot the size of a wellington. You struggle to carry groceries, can't carry more than one passenger, can't carry groceries and a passenger at the same time, and get lousy gas mileage. They're powerful, but a sedan or van or wagon of pickup/ute is able to actually fill the purposes for which people own motor vehicles. An oracle is the class you tack on when you already have all the roles filled.

Roles are overrated.

[Kolokotroni]

bsctgod wrote:

Atarlost wrote:

Oracles are like one of those flashy sports cars with no back seat and a boot the size of a wellington. You struggle to carry groceries, can't carry more than one passenger, can't carry groceries and a passenger at the same time, and get lousy gas mileage. They're powerful, but a sedan or van or wagon of pickup/ute is able to actually fill the purposes for which people own motor vehicles. An oracle is the class you tack on when you already have all the roles filled.

Roles are overrated.

Roles are overrated in the strictest definition. But at the end of the day, SOMEONE needs to do each of those things, at least at the basic level. If the divine caster isnt the guy capable of removing diseases, curses, negative levels, ability damage etc, then someone else has to do it. Same thing for all the other basic roles. In a large party that matters less, but in a campaign that includes a wide variety of challenges, and is not more then 4 people, being able to do the basic thing that is needed of your 'category', is important.

And if the oracle wants to fill a role, he has to devote a lot of resources to it, really the super oracle that some people consider the standard, isnt going to be the reality for a lot of actual groups where the divine caster needs to be able to be the divine caster.

The oracle sort of has the opposite problem of the summoner. The summoner is too easy to optimize. The oracle, while powerful when optimized, has a very low optimization floor compared to most other classes.

[Kaouse]

If Oracles are poor frontliners for lacking a good Fort save, what about Fighters who lack a good Will save?

[Arachnofiend]

Kaouse wrote:

If Oracles are poor frontliners for lacking a good Fort save, what about Fighters who lack a good Will save?

This. An Oracle wants a reasonable CON anyways for HP purposes and can shore up the poor fort save with feats much like the Fighter can with his will save. Having one good save is only an untenable situation if that one good save is reflex... And if I had to pick, I'd rather have a good will save than a good fortitude.

[chbgraphicarts]

Cleric and Oracle are underpowered because their spells suck.

That's why the Cleric and Oracle can regularly replace full BAB warriors as the frontline tanks.

... wait...

[Chess Pwn]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Kaouse wrote:

If Oracles are poor frontliners for lacking a good Fort save, what about Fighters who lack a good Will save?

This. An Oracle wants a reasonable CON anyways for HP purposes and can shore up the poor fort save with feats much like the Fighter can with his will save. Having one good save is only an untenable situation if that one good save is reflex... And if I had to pick, I'd rather have a good will save than a good fortitude.

Plus as others have already mentioned, at lv5 they pick up the feat to get CHA to all their saves, and now their saves are up there with the Paladins.

[Rycaut]

the issue I have with building an Oracle is the same issue I have with any spontaneous caster - picking the very very very limited spells known really constrains much of what I find fun around playing a caster (adjusting what you prepare for the likely needs of a scenario). It means that Oracles (and Bards, Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters) get this glimpse of the wide array of options but in most cases end up getting very specialized.

Which isn't to say they can't be powerful and fun - but the casting ability generally has to be very specialized and focused.

In contrast one of the most powerful components of playing a Cleric is the extreme flexibility you have with picking your spells each day - sure many clerics take feats and domains that suggest certain spells most days - but in most cases you can completely change your role in the party by your spell selection (healing vs buffing others vs buffing yourself vs control). Yes, specialized characters focused on a specific set of spells will cast those better and more effectively than you - but the Cleric can change up their role every day. This makes a well played Cleric very useful in PFS where your party may change from scenario to scenario.

I don't disagree that Oracles are really powerful - but my reluctance to play one really comes down to this specialization - it makes me feel like there is less room for flexibility which is something I really like having with all of my characters (even the most otherwise optimized ones - I usually have at least some other roles they can play if needed)

[TriOmegaZero]

Atarlost wrote:

They lack fortitude. It's the save for ghoul paralysis, disease (that often comes on melee attacks), poison (that is also usually on melee attacks), and permanent negative levels (usually from melee touch attacks). Clerics have it.

What you are saying does not hold out in my experience. I've run a Battle Oracle in Dragon's Demand, I've run a Winter Oracle in Reign of Winter. They've done just fine. My Life Oracle is the quintessential white mage, and handles the issues that crop up just fine. My Flame Oracle is the closest to what you are saying, and he still makes a fine armored rogue because that's what I built him to be.

[kestral287]

Kaouse wrote:

If Oracles are poor frontliners for lacking a good Fort save, what about Fighters who lack a good Will save?

Well you see, as an ultimately Str-based class, the Fighter of course has the option to add his Str stat to his Will save.

Wait, what? No? That's only the Oracle? No other class can run everything except attacks and damage off one stat? Oh. Pity.

Seriously. Initiative, AC, saves, and spells all working off the same stat. The Oracle's Fort save is awesome once it hits level 5.

I'm really not sure what more people want from a front-line class. Medium Armor? Check. 3/4ths BAB? Check. Fantastic saves in all categories? Check. Fantastic AC? Check. Ability to pump Str all day because if you decide to run a front-line Oracle you only need two stats? Check.

What else is there?

[catman123456]

Rycaut wrote:

catman123456 wrote:

Well here is a LV 6 Oracle. 25 pt

** spoiler omitted **...

Where is the Cape of Free Will from? Not familiar with that item.

Mythic Adventures

[Just a Guess]

Rycaut wrote:

the issue I have with building an Oracle is the same issue I have with any spontaneous caster - picking the very very very limited spells known really constrains much of what I find fun around playing a caster (adjusting what you prepare for the likely needs of a scenario). It means that Oracles (and Bards, Sorcerers and other spontaneous casters) get this glimpse of the wide array of options but in most cases end up getting very specialized.

Mnemonic vestments and pages of spell knowledge help lessen that drawback a little.

[Arbane the Terrible]

As long as people are posting advice, my Oracle's hit a bit of a jam. I made her to be a combat-monster in her own right (a few self-buff spells and a big sword), but currently our party is a bit overstocked on damage dealers. The rest of the part are a Monk, a Ranger, a Rogue, and a Witch, but the Witch's player is planning on switching to a Gunslinger, and there's an NPC/Cohort Evoker Wizard joining us.

Yeah, this is not the most optimized group ever. :-P

So, we're getting pretty close to level 8 - what are some good crowd-control/mass buff tricks for an Oracle? Already got Bless & Prayer, planning on taking Blessing of Fervor next level. Battle Mystery, so I have Fog Cloud and I get Wall of Fire, so that's good. I may branch out into more 'utility' spells like Stone Shape and Speak with Dead when I have the chance.

[TriOmegaZero]

Beacon of Luck.

[Arbane the Terrible]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Beacon of Luck.

Oooh, and it's not a Resistance bonus! I'll have to write that one down.

[Ms. Pleiades]

kestral287 wrote:

Kaouse wrote:

If Oracles are poor frontliners for lacking a good Fort save, what about Fighters who lack a good Will save?

Well you see, as an ultimately Str-based class, the Fighter of course has the option to add his Str stat to his Will save.

Wait, what? No? That's only the Oracle? No other class can run everything except attacks and damage off one stat? Oh. Pity.

Seriously. Initiative, AC, saves, and spells all working off the same stat. The Oracle's Fort save is awesome once it hits level 5.

I'm really not sure what more people want from a front-line class. Medium Armor? Check. 3/4ths BAB? Check. Fantastic saves in all categories? Check. Fantastic AC? Check. Ability to pump Str all day because if you decide to run a front-line Oracle you only need two stats? Check.

What else is there?

Wait, which mystery can get STR to Will saves?