[Legendary Games] Help select our next print compilation!


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Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

We are just finishing up our giant MYTHIC MANIA Kickstarter, but we also are thinking ahead to possibly doing a compilation project this fall (and possibly one every fall), taking some of our product lines and combining them into a single glorious print product like our fantastic Gothic Campaign Compendium. It needs to be a product line that is near completion (rather than one we've just started, like the Metal Gods AP Plug-Ins), but we have several great options from which to choose. The question is, which one would YOU like to see next?

Far East AP Plug-Ins
Kingdom-Building AP Plug-Ins
Pirate AP Plug-Ins
Righteous Crusade AP Plug-Ins
Ultimate Plug-Ins

Give us your top three in order of preference! Inquiring minds want to know!


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

1. Ultimate plugins combined with Kingdom building AP plugins as one mega tome. (I like big books, I cannot lie).
2. Righteous Crusade AP plugins
3. Pirate AP plugins.

If I can't have number 1, then Kingdom building AP plugins drops off the list (or becomes number 4).


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

1) Ultimate Plug-ins.
2) Righteous Crusade plug-ins
3) Kingdom-building AP plug-ins.

I was going to just put Ultimate plug-ins as all three, but figured that wouldn't actually help.

Seriously, Ultimate plug-ins compilation will be a day-one purchase from me, even with shipping costs to the UK, and might even end up with a purchase direct (rather than through paizo.com), because I just want it that badly.


1. Ultimate,
2. Kingdom-building,
3. Righteous.

I think that an Ultimate compilation would be of the most use to the greatest number of GMs.


1)Pirates!
2)Righteous
3)Ultimates


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

1. Ultimate Plug-ins
2. Kingdom Building Plug-ins
3. Righteous Plug-ins


1: Righteous
2: Pirate
3: Ultimate


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

UGH! Top three??

Personally, I think Ultimate is a must, and should probably be alongside the Kingdom-Building AP Plug-Ins :)

Kingdom-Building AP Plug-Ins/Ultimate Plug-Ins
Righteous Crusade AP Plug-Ins
Pirate AP Plug-Ins

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

An interesting quirk about the Ultimate line is that, as it stands, it would make a very short compilation, at around 130 pages. Even once Ultimate Armies is completed, that will probably add about another 35-40 pages.

We'd probably need one more product in the series to bring us up over 200 pages to where doing a print compilation starts to make sense. What would people like to see as the NEXT product in the series after Ultimate Armies?


Jason, what are the current Ultimate books? I'm not familiar with the line, but I would like to make a suggestion if I see a missing niche/area.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Ultimate Rulership - kingdom building and management

Ultimate Battle - mass combat - tactics, strategy, recruitment, aftermath, armies, equipment

Ultimate War - alternate/additional mass combat rules, including integrated aerial and naval combat and siege warfare and magic items for mass combat

Ultimate Relationships - building relationships over the course of a campaign

upcoming

Ultimate Armies - mercenaries and mercenary companies, armies and the troop subtype, premade army stat blocks, including national and cultural characteristics


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The ultimates one is a no-brainier & the only thing I can think of to add there would be an expansion on the downtime rules.

So besides that the 3 I would most like to see done are:

1) Ultimate Kingdom (Not sure if we want the kingdom building rules in it if there is an ultimate book coming out but maybe we could get some of the fey themed stuff in to fill it out)

2) Pirates

3) Righteous cursade


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1) Ultimate

2) Kingdom building

3) Righteous

As for additions maybe Ultimate politics/court intrigue or Ultimate spy network maybe Ultimate merchant prince.

I have literally hundreds of Books on an endless array of topics but I don't think I have one on spying either from a kingdom building point of view or as PCs who belongs to a spy network. I think that would be a good topic to cover in a book on kingdom building and war.


1: Ultimate
2: Pirates
3: Kingdom Building


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jason Nelson wrote:

An interesting quirk about the Ultimate line is that, as it stands, it would make a very short compilation, at around 130 pages. Even once Ultimate Armies is completed, that will probably add about another 35-40 pages.

We'd probably need one more product in the series to bring us up over 200 pages to where doing a print compilation starts to make sense. What would people like to see as the NEXT product in the series after Ultimate Armies?

I've been wracking my brains trying to answer this question, and it's really hard since the existing Ultimate plug-ins cover a whole heck of a lot of the rules needed.

But I think I've thought at least one bit of design space that's missing.

No idea what you might call it, but there's precious little in the existing rules as GM aids for designing other kingdoms (IIRC, size plus 2d6 for economy in diplomatic edicts). I'd like something that lets me do a (relatively) quick and dirty approximation of some real kingdom statistics (all of them, including settlement stats) without needing a full-blown kingdom statblock built from the ground up.

The basic idea I'm thinking of is "here's the Kingdom size, here's the ruler, there's this number of settlement of these sizes. [???] And out pops a set of kingdom stats, there's this many armies of these sizes".


The next print compilation?

Kingdom-Building AP Plug-Ins
Ultimate Plug-Ins
Pirate AP Plug-Ins

I also agree with Chemlak's idea about a quick build for non-PC kingdoms; if you use the various trade edicts, trade, unification and other acts of diplomacy, it would be very helpful to be able to swiftly come up with some needed stats for them.

For that idea some guidelines on how big an army your neighbors/enemies might have would be a help too.

Grand Lodge

1. Far East AP Plug-Ins
2. Far East AP Plug-Ins
3. Far East AP Plug-Ins

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

GarnathFrostmantle wrote:

1. Far East AP Plug-Ins

2. Far East AP Plug-Ins
3. Far East AP Plug-Ins

Come on, tell us what you REALLY want! :)


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1. Ultimate Plug-Ins
2. Kingdom-Building AP Plug-Ins
3. Far East AP Plug-Ins

And to answer your NEXT question for the Ultimate Plug-Ins, I have 3 proposals:

1. Ultimate Strongholds - Back in 3.0/3.5 the stronghold builders guide book was crazy popular with just about every DM/player I ever encountered. That being said, ultimate campaigns had a nice section dedicated to building but as with everything in that book, the systems were great, yet felt lacking in overall depth/coverage. As such, your ultimate plug-ins have been much appreciated by this DM.

2. Ultimate Factions - I'd like to see more tools to assist DMs/PCs in making their very own factions from thieves guilds, to bardic colleges, to magical academies, to fighting schools, to secret societies, and more. Inner sea combat/magic and occult mysteries have definitely hooked my group in on the faction/organization ruleset, and left us wanting more. So give us a robust tool set for making that happen, and maybe a few plug & play examples ready to throw right into the mix.

3. Ultimate Downtime - Same line of thought here. I'd like a more robust system for setting up and running shops / businesses.

Besides that, more material for each of the existing ultimate plug-ins, like more settlement attributes (no joke, before I was doing my morning check of the paizo forums I was stating up a small city for some home-brew and I still have the Ultimate Rulership pdf open sitting at the civic attributes XD )

Also, that reminds me, Well Educated now has the exact same modifiers as the Brod-Minded attribute introduced in Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars pg 11, minus flavor text. Though I think Brod-Minded would be an attitude. Would you leave Well Educated alone or tweak it in light of that?


I'd go with ultimate pug-ins. If you added a strongholds section to it that'd just be fantastic.


1. Ultimates
2. Kingdom building

I have a definite preference for hard copy over digital. While the digital copies can be handy in a pinch, the hard copy is easier for me to reference when I need to (control F only works so well in some books). I like the Ultimate Factions idea from Lurion Coravoss, that would help me greatly with converting the secret societies within my campaign.
Also, as I have not had an opportunity to pick those PDFs up yet, would they happen to contain non Player Character info? Specifically, I remember a series about Bloodstone Lands a while back that included mass combat with undead and infernal legions as well as the good guys. If the PDFs do not have much on the bad guys, that could be something very useful for a GM to create opposing forces to challenge the PCs with...another idea if not included would be combined arms (something like a mob of orcs with a giant or troll added in) and tactics (like shield walls, block formations, charging effects, fatigue effects for prolonged battles and forced marches, etc.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thedmstrikes wrote:

1. Ultimates

2. Kingdom building

I have a definite preference for hard copy over digital. While the digital copies can be handy in a pinch, the hard copy is easier for me to reference when I need to (control F only works so well in some books). I like the Ultimate Factions idea from Lurion Coravoss, that would help me greatly with converting the secret societies within my campaign.
Also, as I have not had an opportunity to pick those PDFs up yet, would they happen to contain non Player Character info? Specifically, I remember a series about Bloodstone Lands a while back that included mass combat with undead and infernal legions as well as the good guys. If the PDFs do not have much on the bad guys, that could be something very useful for a GM to create opposing forces to challenge the PCs with...another idea if not included would be combined arms (something like a mob of orcs with a giant or troll added in) and tactics (like shield walls, block formations, charging effects, fatigue effects for prolonged battles and forced marches, etc.)

Just touching the last bit: for combined arms, see Ultimate War. Legendary Games has got you covered.

Dark Archive

1) Metal Gods (wait, that wasn't an option!)
2) Kingdom Building
3) Ultimates


I'm not sure if I should vote since I only by PDFs (with the exception of core rules for systems), but I'm watching this thread for hints you drop about upcoming products.
For Ultimate stuff, I'd like to see something that combines Mythic and Kingdom rules. Perhaps mythic path which focuses on rulership. Or at least a few path abilities.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

There is always room for more mythic content. True, we're producing a huge pile of mythic print content this summer, but if the appetite is there for more we can certainly do more.

That said, we could add in mythic elements to a product that is not primarily designed as mythic content. If we did do an ultimates compilation, that might be a stretch goal, or we could just do a separate product.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I will also back up Chemlak in saying some quick build rules for neighboring countries would be nice. I also like Lurion Coravoss ideas of having a stronghold guide & faction guide for the ultimate book. Looks like he/she also like my idea of expanding the downtime rules.

Another thing that you can add would be references to where rules are found in the original books. I understand that you don't want to reprint the information from the Ultimate campaign, but giving the page number of where the other info is found would make it easier when referring to two books.


Oh, yes, mythic content should it apply, definitely! It could be its own chapter since the entire element is an option that overlays all other options...

Liberty's Edge

Lurion Coravoss wrote:

1. Ultimate Plug-Ins

2. Kingdom-Building AP Plug-Ins
3. Far East AP Plug-Ins

And to answer your NEXT question for the Ultimate Plug-Ins, I have 3 proposals:

1. Ultimate Strongholds - Back in 3.0/3.5 the stronghold builders guide book was crazy popular with just about every DM/player I ever encountered. That being said, ultimate campaigns had a nice section dedicated to building but as with everything in that book, the systems were great, yet felt lacking in overall depth/coverage. As such, your ultimate plug-ins have been much appreciated by this DM.

2. Ultimate Factions - I'd like to see more tools to assist DMs/PCs in making their very own factions from thieves guilds, to bardic colleges, to magical academies, to fighting schools, to secret societies, and more. Inner sea combat/magic and occult mysteries have definitely hooked my group in on the faction/organization ruleset, and left us wanting more. So give us a robust tool set for making that happen, and maybe a few plug & play examples ready to throw right into the mix.

3. Ultimate Downtime - Same line of thought here. I'd like a more robust system for setting up and running shops / businesses.

While I'm not sure there would be enough for three separate products, he's pretty much expressed my feelings.


Just putting a LINK to a thread requesting a Dungeon-building handbook - in effect Ultimate Dungeon.

I like the idea of Ultimate Stronghold - perhaps Ultimate Dungeon could be another facet...


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

1: Far East
2: Pirate


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

1)Kingdom Building
2)Far East
3)Righteous Crusade

Thanks for askin!


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Ultimate (incl. Strongholds)
Righteous AP
Kingdom Building AP


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1. Ultimate
2. Kingdom Building
3. Far East

Jason Nelson wrote:

An interesting quirk about the Ultimate line is that, as it stands, it would make a very short compilation, at around 130 pages. Even once Ultimate Armies is completed, that will probably add about another 35-40 pages.

We'd probably need one more product in the series to bring us up over 200 pages to where doing a print compilation starts to make sense. What would people like to see as the NEXT product in the series after Ultimate Armies?

What I want to see is options for characters focused specifically on being better at running a Kingdom. Feats, archetypes, maybe even a class or two focused on being a leader. You might also want to consider rules for how lower level groups might affect a Kingdom. How does a really good thieves guide impact the kingdom, or top quality Mage college. Things that a player might setup that could have an impact on a Kingdom. Alternatively, you might scale it up to world spanning or Planar empires for high level or Mythic games. Mythic Kingdom building rules would be interesting too.


I want all those NPC PDFs in one book. NPCs are the most tedious thing to make that last for a minute. We got enough bestiaries to make that less cumbersome but one NPC codex.

Other than that: Far East, Metal, and Mythic.

Grand Lodge

1)Pirates
2)Metal Gods
3)Pirates

Will "Fort Scurvy" come out soon?

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Silver Griffin wrote:

I will also back up Chemlak in saying some quick build rules for neighboring countries would be nice. I also like Lurion Coravoss ideas of having a stronghold guide & faction guide for the ultimate book. Looks like he/she also like my idea of expanding the downtime rules.

Another thing that you can add would be references to where rules are found in the original books. I understand that you don't want to reprint the information from the Ultimate campaign, but giving the page number of where the other info is found would make it easier when referring to two books.

To address this issue, 3rd-party publishers are not allowed to reference page numbers in Paizo books. We can republish information that's published in the PRD, though it's considered bad form to just cut/paste big chunks of text (and also, for that matter, would be reselling you text you already own)q.


HARK wrote:
What I want to see is options for characters focused specifically on being better at running a Kingdom. Feats, archetypes, maybe even a class or two focused on being a leader.

I thought about this after I read it and I think this could turn into a good archetype or (prestige) class, something along the lines of a "noble" archetype or (prestige) class. Something a character can be and grow into once they have taken the mantle of leadership over a kingdom (or whatever you are calling your new land). The harsh reality of running a kingdom is that you pretty much have to put aside whatever career you had in order to be any good at the new one.


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If an Ultimate compilation is 40 pages short, how about either:

1. An adventure using the mass combat systems as rival Kingdoms attack the PCs' lands (although the maps might be a problem),

or

2. "Ultimate Apocalypse". 40 pages of help for GMs to destroy the players' hard work. (More generally useful for the end of campaigns).


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Lurion Coravoss wrote:

And to answer your NEXT question for the Ultimate Plug-Ins, I have 3 proposals:

1. Ultimate Strongholds - Back in 3.0/3.5 the stronghold builders guide book was crazy popular with just about every DM/player I ever encountered. That being said, ultimate campaigns had a nice section dedicated to building but as with everything in that book, the systems were great, yet felt lacking in overall depth/coverage. As such, your ultimate plug-ins have been much appreciated by this DM.

2. Ultimate Factions - I'd like to see more tools to assist DMs/PCs in making their very own factions from thieves guilds, to bardic colleges, to magical academies, to fighting schools, to secret societies, and more. Inner sea combat/magic and occult mysteries have definitely hooked my group in on the faction/organization ruleset, and left us wanting more. So give us a robust tool set for making that happen, and maybe a few plug & play examples ready to throw right into the mix.

3. Ultimate Downtime - Same line of thought here. I'd like a more robust system for setting up and running shops / businesses.

Besides that, more material for each of the existing ultimate plug-ins, like more settlement attributes (no joke, before I was doing my morning check of the paizo forums I was stating up a small city for some home-brew and I still have the Ultimate Rulership pdf open sitting at the civic attributes XD )

Also, that reminds me, Well Educated now has the exact same modifiers as the Brod-Minded attribute introduced in Numeria, Land of Fallen Stars pg 11, minus flavor text. Though I think Brod-Minded would be an attitude. Would you leave Well Educated alone or tweak it in light of that?

Great ideas! I especially like the Ultimate Factions one.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Some very interesting ideas in this thread.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just in case it helps in the decision-making process: I love the 3.0 Stronghold Builders Guidebook. It had flaws, but was really good. Something along those lines would be really fantastic, particularly if it integrated well with the Downtime rules.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

What did you feel made that particular book so good?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

it was lots of things. The detail around the construction of buildings, like the materials used and how easy they are to come by, how those materials can affect how the room interacts with other game mechanics, the different enhancements that could be added, and the items.

Then there's the fact that it's very "plug-n-play" so, like with the buildings in the downtime rules, it was quick and easy to do the paperwork involved with what rooms make up your stronghold, so you could make it as simple or as complex as you wanted.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm about to go to bed, and don't have the book in front of me. I'll see if I can come up with more tomorrow.

Shadow Lodge

From most-wanted to least cared about:

1. Righteous Crusade AP Plug-Ins
2. Pirate AP Plug-Ins
3. Far East AP Plug-Ins
4. Ultimate Plug-Ins
5. Kingdom-Building AP Plug-Ins

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

I'm actually a little surprised at the amount of love that the Righteous Crusade AP line has gotten in this survey. It has fewer products put out for it than any of the other lines. I wonder what additional products people who are Righteous fans would most like to see.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I have no experience with it myself, nor much theorycrafting ability, but if the legendary games guys agree with the "wrath of the righteous sucks" crowd, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on house rules and/or other approaches to make it not suck.

I really like the look of the AP, but have steered clear of running it given it's bad press.


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Been a crazy weekend on my part, but glad to see this thread still going.

To answer a couple of things:

I'm a guy Silver Griffin. ^_^

Jason Nelson wrote:
What did you feel made that particular book so good?

On a number points I agree with Chemlak there Jason. But vagueness is no path to take here so let me crack open my copy and the Ultimate Campaign and compare.

1) First things first construction materials. Ignoring rarer materials like Mithral, with the stronghold builder's guidebook (SBG) I can make a Defensive Wall made out of Iron to protect the open parts of my theoretical dwarven mountain fortress. Ultimate Campaign (UC) gives no support for this. My defensive walls are wooden or at double cost stone. On top of that, SBG also covers wall augmentations very well with over two dozen options. UM we get a single option for a guard post to make it walkable, that's it. To continue with this line of thought, in SBG we also get rules and tables for a variety doors and windows.

2) Lets look at some rooms for a sec. UM I can get a book repository that gives a +3 to a single knowledge check, and that's it. I can buy some furnishings for it and make it look a little cooler but that money sink has no bonus to it. SBG I have a choice between three grades of libraries that come with varying book lot spaces, with a side bar on book lots and how to create scaling ones for better bonuses on specific or general topics. The higher the bonus, the more it costs and the more lots it takes up. Simple but effective, and a system I dearly wish you guys at Paizo would adopt. You have so many different setups when it comes to pricing your book collections that grant circumstance bonuses to knowledge skills. It honestly makes me wana rip my shirt off and go Tarzan in the trees outside. Which sucks, because in a fantasy game with Wizards, Sages, and more you'd think book collections would actually make good nonmagical player loot and great additions to player strongholds. Heck books come up so much in this game there is a reoccurring thread that shows up in the Houserules/homebrew where people have posted hundreds of unique/interesting books they've created. But now I'm getting off topic. Its this kind of extra info and rulesets that turn SBG from a decent product into a great one. And considering Paizo did a Dragon Magazine with extra rooms and a huge example castle I'm inclined to think that some of you, at least at the time, agreed. I'd like to see this kind of scaling available for other rooms as well if possible. Better tiers of forges, alchemy labs, etc. Oh and more room types Is always awesome. I can come up with a list of some I'd like to see if you want.

3) Mobile strongholds (sequels in delight) I can list a number of times in pathfinder that mobile bases have shown up so far, such as cloud castles or how about homes that walk around on legs. SBG gives us the rules and costs. UM does not.

4) Magic item uses for, and interactions with rooms is another good point for SBG which I find very odd to be lacking in the UM considering even the kingdom building rules got magical street lamps and everflowing springs using decanters of endless water. On top of that they brought out a bunch of new magic items and room enchantments designed to augment strongholds. These are concepts you're already using in Paizo adventure paths but not giving us a way to recreate them for player homes. Point in case: Serpent's Skull #42 Sanctum of the Serpent God, pg 44-45 the Tower of Preservation room. The entire massive room has been enchanted with a levitate effect that can be used by anyone who makes a DC 25 spellcraft check. That's honestly an awesome idea and our group's battle in the room was kinda epic. So how do I recreate that effect? My players really wanted to use that idea for their own base in several rooms.

5) Portal creation/costs. Other than teleportation circles I can't find rules for creating permanent portals in pathfinder yet. Would love to see something like what they had in SBG.

I'm sure I could think of more things but I'm running out of time here. I'll check back later tonight or tomorrow.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games

Steve Geddes wrote:

I have no experience with it myself, nor much theorycrafting ability, but if the legendary games guys agree with the "wrath of the righteous sucks" crowd, I'd be interested to read your thoughts on house rules and/or other approaches to make it not suck.

I really like the look of the AP, but have steered clear of running it given it's bad press.

I love the Wrath concept, though I wish they had skipped the "I know you're super-good guys and questing against a demon invasion, but now you have to go be friendly with a sleazy demon lord because that's the ONLY entity willing to help you against the main demon lord villain" chapter. I felt like they did that story already in Savage Tide, and if they wanted to have a "go find a rival power to help" I'd have been happier with something other than another demon (or, for that matter, another evil power of any kind). No chance to make friends with another power of good or neutrality that might have an interest in thwarting the demon invasion?

Setting aside my personal preference for a no-holds-barred ALL-GOOD story, though, I think Wrath has great thematics. I've been very happy with the products we've made for it. They just haven't been great sellers compared to some of our other lines, so I thought perhaps folks weren't loving the AP in general (and there's certainly a contingent of folks who do dislike it). At least the folks who have chimed in on this thread and elsewhere, though, have supported it very strongly.

That makes me think there is at least a core of interest, which makes me interested in what additional products people would like to see in this line.

As to your question about 'fixing' the AP, the Mythic Hero's Handbook has a section devoted to addressing the challenges of playing with the mythic rules, as many issues people have with Wrath are more rooted in the mythic rules rather than the AP itself. We have a full roster of mythic demons in the Mythic Monster Manual (and Mythic Monsters: Demons, of course), so certainly those could see a lot of play in a souped-up run-through of the AP.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

A quick note before I investigate the SBG and give a more detailed answer than yesterday's (and figure out what events I'm going to play in at UK Games Expo this year, but that's a different matter).

I love the mythic rules. I also think the Wrath of the Righteous is a fantastic AP, but what failed was actually a playtest issue, where there was a lack of data on high level, high tier games, so judging how extremely the game would go was missing, which meant that there was insufficient information about how easy the "challenges" presented in the AP would be.

My home game recently ticked up to tier 6, and non-mythic challenges may as well not exist.

I don't know if this is something that Legendary a Games are able to address, but seems to be the fundamental problem most people have with how mythic turned out: once you get past about tier 4, it ramps player power up to 12. Challenging that is a lot of work, especially when the AP expects them to be at 11.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Right, finally sitting down at my desk with the SBG in front of me. Sorry if I repeat a lot of what Lurion (or indeed, my self) said.

1) Factoring in how the local climate/terrain, proximity to settlements, and natural/socialogical features affect the price of building things.
2) Differentiation between "components" (rooms, to use the closest UCam terminology), walls (no UCam equivalent), "extras" (UCam: Augmentations), and the ability to add wondrous architecture and "augmentations" (no UCam equivalent) to the building.
3) Variety of components/rooms (not saying I dislike the ones in the UCam Downtime rules, I just love the ones in SBG, and the fact that some are just bigger and better than others - the basic, fancy, and luxury split).
4) Helpful details on using a stronghold/building in a game, such as how to defend it, what to use it for as a character, and rules for damaging the structure physically or with spells.

Now, that was just a quick run-through, but what I take away from that is pretty much what Ultimate Rulership did for the Kingdom Building rules - it adds a level of detail to the existing rules that you don't need to have, but that is great to have available.

For example, in UCam, if I build a house, it's a house.

Quote:

Create 32 Goods, 1 Influence, 31 Labor (1,290 gp)

Rooms 1 Bedroom, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Sewer Access, 1 Sitting Room, 1 Storage
A small cottage that can house up to two adults or a new family.

Is it wood, stone, brick, or adamantine? I don't know.

Does the material affect the cost? Probably should, but the rules don't tell me.

What the SBG does is really give you the ability to play with the details, and account for them. I've had a player turn to me and say: "I want a ten-level stone tower protected from teleportation, scrying, and all that jazz - maybe a double-walled building with prismatic walls? I need a teleportation trap at the door, and teleportation traps at the bottom step of each staircase. At the top step approaching the 10th floor, I need another teleportation trap, a prismatic wall behind the door, and in the room is a prismatic sphere. All of that needs to be permanent." (Yes, he was trying to make what amounted to a frustrating and difficult time-wasting building, but that's beside the point).

I can make that with SBG, but it's a bit trickier with the Downtime rules.

Now, I know that the downtime rules are mostly focused on characters constructing buildings and organisations as a means to make (a small amount of) money and have interesting background stuff happening such as owning a tavern, or running a bank, or setting up a school, but there's also a fair amount of desire to be able to make their home, be it a castle, a house, or an extradimensional palace with a doorway carried on a howdah on the back of a dragon, and trick that home out with all the mod cons.

I'm stream-of-consciousnessing, here, so sorry if this seems a bit disjointed, but I hope I've managed to get at least the following essential points across:

A) Downtime rules simulate buildings and organisations run by the players perfectly well.
B) Not enough detail in the Downtime rules for buildings in which the players actually live (the ones they want to add traps to, and fit exceptional locks on the exterior doors, and have the walls made of darkwood rather than oak).

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