Regarding the sales of the Righteous AP support materials, I have not bought any, but would buy a compilation. I don't buy PDFs, I only buy hardcopy. The Gothic compilation is the only Legendary Games product that I own (until the "Mythic Mania" trilogy arrives). As an aside, your "Path of Villains" and "Path of Dragons" look very tempting. Will they be included in the KS trilogy, in a later compilation, or should I just give you my money now?
Back again, and I still find myself in total agreement with Chemlok here (great examples btw Chem). Looking back at my post I think I failed to focus on the fact that there are indeed good qualities to the Ultimate Campaign's system.
For one thing it synergizes with downtime rules very well, and I'm actually a big fan of the goods ruleset. For anouther, I see rooms like the Throneroom that never appeared in SBG, and in my books new rooms equals more variety, which translates into more unique / memorable locations.
That being said, I bleave that anouther big part of our enthusiasm for this idea comes from how well you guys did with the Ultimate Rulership, which is by far my favorite Ultimate plug-in. Chem is right, nothing in Rulership is actually needed but in my games and the games of two other Dms I know it's been very well received and incorperated with the same kind of enthusiasm that SBG was back in the days of 3.0/3.5. If Legendary Games could bring even half the badassness of Ultimate Rulership to an Ultimate Strongholds type product it would still be a cornerstone product in my games.
As for Rightious plug-ins it would've been a fourth on my list but I stuck to three. A big reason being that I'm well aware of many of the additions/changes to Mythic coming with your 3 books. I highly suspect/hope that they will drasticly alter the community's views on Mythic content in general, and I also hope that Paizo will acknowledge / utilize them as they have the Advanced Bestiary and Tome of Horrors products.
Which brings me to my next point, Mythic and Technolgical content for Ultimate Rulership and possibly an Ultimate Strongholds product. Both of these aspects are massively missing gaps with the realease of Mythic and Technology into the game. Point in case, my players want to turn Iron Gods into a kingdom building campaign after the last adventure. I have 0 idea how they would build/pay for a stronghold like the Technique League's base, and even less of a clue on how to reflect the Advanced technology in settlement/ kingdom stats. I know that's a lot to heap on Legendary Games, but again I come back to the whole massive faith in you guys to produce high quality content with an emphasis on final product over time tables.
Oh and one last thing Jason, as is WotR highly relies on the PCs going to Noticula's domain to deal with the mining operation that is the very reason why we are facing so many mythic demons (a key part of the plot) I don't see how they could've avoided using her and still stayed within the limit of 6 adventures, so I won't fault Paizo for reusing an idea from Savage Tide there. I think it's a better example/argument for breaking from the structured mold of six adventures to better cover a story thoroughly. It does however leave room for legendary to add in side adventures to get different allies though, so I guess I'm curious as to who you would've brought to the table then?/might we see this in a future Rightous plug-in?
Wrath AP:
I'm going to play this when our current AP is finished, so I have skipped parts of the thoughts regarding this topic, but for additional material I'd like to see more adventures, like Baleful Coven for the Far East or the Pirate adventure plug-ins. Paizo always has some places not fleshed out in its adventures that needs additional materials, subplots for something, even some new rooms in a dungeon or a new sub-chief.
In short: More awesome places, inspiring enemies to meet there and plots connecting them to the main theme would be nice to have!
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Regarding the sales of the Righteous AP support materials, I have not bought any, but would buy a compilation. I don't buy PDFs, I only buy hardcopy.
All of the Righteous Crusade AP Plug-Ins are available in print right now through the Legendary Games webstore, as well as right here on Paizo.com, and even on amazon.com and createspace.com, our print-on-demand service.
Given the support, we might do a full compilation as well. We'll see where things stand as we continue to gather information through a variety of channels. In addition to seeing what people want, we also want to look closely at each product line and see which ones we are prepared to finish vs. which ones we foresee doing more products. We wouldn't want to make one compilation, then keep adding more stuff. We want to be sure we are at or close to the finish line as far as the products we'd really like to do.
The Gothic compilation is the only Legendary Games product that I own (until the "Mythic Mania" trilogy arrives). As an aside, your "Path of Villains" and "Path of Dragons" look very tempting. Will they be included in the KS trilogy, in a later compilation, or should I just give you my money now?
Both of those books are available in print as well. They are not part of the Mythic Mania kickstarter project and are not included, though there are a handful of few elements from each that found their way into the Mythic Mania books.
So yes, give us your money now! :)
Honestly you guys might want to make a listing on what is & isn't included in the books somewhere just so people can be sure. Perhaps in the descriptions of the individual pdf's you can say if it's mostly, only partially or not included at all.
The Righteous is what I will probably use for my games. I see a lot of use of what you already have and if you put them together, added content, I'd buy more.
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Given the support, we might do a full compilation as well.
The thing is, the fact that you guys do compilations make me LESS likely to support the component products. Why should I buy a dozen or more separate PDFs for Righteous Crusade when I can wait for a while and get them all in one? I was a regular purchaser of the AP Plug-Ins up until you offered the Gothic Campaign Compendium. While I did purchase that PDF (I greatly prefer to have them all-in-one), it kind of burned me since I had purchased all the prior Gothic Adventure PDFs as well. So, yeah, I won't be getting any further products from Legendary Games until they come out in the compendium format. Maybe that makes it less likely that the compendium actually happens, but I can't justify that kind of double-dip.
An excellent point, Kthulhu, which is a paraphrase of Paizo's policy against doing compiled editions of APs.
I happen to be a big fan of Legendary Games' Ultimate series, and I've bought them all as PDFs so far. I'm also absolutely getting a print copy of them compiled when it becomes available because I find paper easier to read than a screen, and because I can just about justify it to myself by saying that I paid for PDFs to get the rules early. There's no way I'd be able to tell myself that if I'd forked out for print copies of the original versions, and it's a pretty close call, even with that bit of mental trickery.
Now, I know that LG can't operate on the basis of a small sample of customer behaviour, but it's definitely a data point.
Speaking for myself, I'd prefer PDFs only of sub-products (I can see a case for print on demand, I suppose), and hardcopy of compilations.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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It's an interesting dilemma, to compile or not to compile, and it's one that really shows up in a bigger way in the comic book business. Once upon a time, trade paperbacks were a rarity, usually reprinting some long-ago saga like the X-Men Dark Phoenix or limited series like Crisis on Infinite Earths or Squadron Supreme. Those sold well, so comics publishers started making more trade compilations, and at some point the balance shifted and many buyers stopped buying monthlies and just waited for trades, many of which never happened because books got canceled due to low sales. Same thing with movies vs. special editions vs. super-deluxe-platinum-criterion-collection-infinifilm special edition boxed sets.
Any content creator has to decide where to land on the "everyday product" vs. "occasional combo product," and as you note it's a tough balance to walk.
We have people who love to buy our individual PDFs.
We have people who only like to buy print and want our products as they come out.
We have people who ask us "When are you going to do another compilation? I wish you'd do [print compilation XYZ]!"
We cannot simultaneously satisfy each group without frustrating one or both of the others, so our solution has been to offer each element as options.
For people who like to get our products right away and relatively inexpensively (or who just prefer e-books), we offer them in PDF.
For people who love to hold a book in their hands and want the content now, we offer many of our products (though much less than half) in print-on-demand softcover. Interestingly, we generally make LESS money on print books than we make on PDFs once you factor in print cost, shipping charges, and the lower margin that we are paid on print books (we typically get only 40-50% of the cover price for print books, depending on the vendor, vs. 65-80% of the cover price on PDFs).
For people who want a hardback book and don't mind waiting a year or more for the product, we have the occasional print run product. Making hardbacks has an ancillary benefit of helping us get our product into brick and mortar stores and book distributors, which potentially can be a great new sales venue, though we'll see how it plays out in the long run.
We encourage Chemlak's compromise - if you really want a print hardback, wait for what you want, but if you want the content pick up the PDFs you want and ignore the print versions. They're there for those that want them, but if that's not you, God bless you and get what fits you best.
We also encourage people to take advantage of sales when we offer them, allowing you to pick up PDFs at a hefty discount. If you'd like to get a product line to use but don't want to wait an unknown amount of time (though likely at least a year) for a possible print compilation, wait for a sale and pick up the PDFs you want at 40% off or so. We'll be having a sale to starting on April 1st to celebrate our anniversary; give things a look then and see if anything jumps into your shopping cart.
Every customer has to figure out the right balance for themselves and so does every company. I regret every sale lost and keenly feel your dilemma, but only you know the best value proposition for you.
We're a small company and print runs are expensive, so our pace of creating print compilations is likely to be slow. The wait for your favorite product line to come out in hardback may be a long one, and not because we're trying to hold out and squeeze customers for more; it's a simple reality of being a prudent small business and doing things as we are able. Game writing and publishing is one of my passions, but it's also my full-time job, and the best way I've figured out how to make that work is to offer our products in greatest variety of ways to the greatest number of people and hope that works out well enough for everybody.
Given the support, we might do a full compilation as well.The thing is, the fact that you guys do compilations make me LESS likely to support the component products. Why should I buy a dozen or more separate PDFs for Righteous Crusade when I can wait for a while and get them all in one? I was a regular purchaser of the AP Plug-Ins up until you offered the Gothic Campaign Compendium. While I did purchase that PDF (I greatly prefer to have them all-in-one), it kind of burned me since I had purchased all the prior Gothic Adventure PDFs as well. So, yeah, I won't be getting any further products from Legendary Games until they come out in the compendium format. Maybe that makes it less likely that the compendium actually happens, but I can't justify that kind of double-dip.
I agree with Kthulhu. (Weirdest sentence I have EVER written.)
I can't double dip. But I SHALL get the two monstrous Path books.Do the "Path of the Genius" and "Path of the Stranger" also stand mostly alone?
As for the Righteous AP support, how about some adventures that REPLACE some of the later adventures? Jason said earlier:
I love the Wrath concept, though I wish they had skipped the "I know you're super-good guys and questing against a demon invasion, but now you have to go be friendly with a sleazy demon lord because that's the ONLY entity willing to help you against the main demon lord villain" chapter. I felt like they did that story already in Savage Tide, and if they wanted to have a "go find a rival power to help" I'd have been happier with something other than another demon (or, for that matter, another evil power of any kind). No chance to make friends with another power of good or neutrality that might have an interest in thwarting the demon invasion?
Why not give us that adventure with a quest for good or neutral help? (And properly balanced for Mythic, too).
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Path of the Genius and Path of the Stranger are both included in full in the Mythic Hero's Handbook.
As far as Righteous support, given the support we've seen on this thread and elsewhere we might well decide to move ahead with some new adventure ideas here. It depends on a confluence of time, passion, and great ideas by the crew; we need all three to make it happen!
As far as Righteous support, given the support we've seen on this thread and elsewhere we might well decide to move ahead with some new adventure ideas here.
I have this great idea that I'm sure I've *never* mentioned to you before. It's called the Crusader Co- What's that? You'll write it if it can shut me up? Well consider me shut up, then!
Seriously, though, the mere mention of more support for Righteous is music to my ears!
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Here's an idea that might help keep people from feeling like you are double dipping. When you make a compilation give a a free copy to people who have already bought the component parts. I have actually seen Rogue Genius Games do it when I had most; but not all the parts they were compiling.
If there is a big difference between the price in the parts & the combined edition you can give them a coupon for a future purchase. This way people can get the parts they want & still have an affordable way to get everything later if they like what they are seeing. The coupons will help show that you value them as customers & help make sure they are still buying your products.
This is coming from someone who vastly prefers to have print products & is willing to wait a year or so for the compilation of them. Though there are pieces that I'm interested enough in that I just buy they & call it the cost of having the info early.
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Been a crazy weekend on my part, but glad to see this thread still going.
To answer a couple of things:
I'm a guy Silver Griffin. ^_^
What did you feel made that particular book so good?On a number points I agree with Chemlak there Jason. But vagueness is no path to take here so let me crack open my copy and the Ultimate Campaign and compare.
1) First things first construction materials. Ignoring rarer materials like Mithral, with the stronghold builder's guidebook (SBG) I can make a Defensive Wall made out of Iron to protect the open parts of my theoretical dwarven mountain fortress. Ultimate Campaign (UC) gives no support for this. My defensive walls are wooden or at double cost stone. On top of that, SBG also covers wall augmentations very well with over two dozen options. UM we get a single option for a guard post to make it walkable, that's it. To continue with this line of thought, in SBG we also get rules and tables for a variety doors and windows.
2) Lets look at some rooms for a sec. UM I can get a book repository that gives a +3 to a single knowledge check, and that's it. I can buy some furnishings for it and make it look a little cooler but that money sink has no bonus to it. SBG I have a choice between three grades of libraries that come with varying book lot spaces, with a side bar on book lots and how to create scaling ones for better bonuses on specific or general topics. The higher the bonus, the more it costs and the more lots it takes up. Simple but effective, and a system I dearly wish you guys at Paizo would adopt. You have so many different setups when it comes to pricing your book collections that grant circumstance bonuses to knowledge skills. It honestly makes me wana rip my shirt off and go Tarzan in the trees outside. Which sucks, because in a fantasy game with Wizards, Sages, and more you'd think book collections would actually make good nonmagical player loot and great additions to player strongholds. Heck books come up so much in...
Ultimate Strongholds! BOOM! Name of the book solved. You can put me in the credits. Honestly, I think making a book like this would be a very worthwhile endeavour.
I second a vote for Ultimate Strongholds!
I think there's certainly room for that on the docket!
Yay!
Also, welcome back, hope your time off was restful, and that GenCon went well for you (personally and as a company).
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I think there's certainly room for that on the docket!Yay!
Also, welcome back, hope your time off was restful, and that GenCon went well for you (personally and as a company).
Thanks. I think it went very well, though the final numbers await. Still, we came back with much less than we brought, so I'll call that a win!
Still catching up after spotty internet access for most of two weeks, but many things should start rolling out very soon!
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I think there's certainly room for that on the docket!
Good news!
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I think there's certainly room for that on the docket!
Did I.....Did I just contribute to the creation of a new RPG product?! YAY!!!!!! This makes me feel awesome that all of your creativity will transform an idea into new-book-smelly reality.
I think there's certainly room for that on the docket!
A castle and fortification rulebook? If I can use that without owning any of the other Ultimate books, I'll buy it.
I think there's certainly room for that on the docket!A castle and fortification rulebook? If I can use that without owning any of the other Ultimate books, I'll buy it.
The Ultimate series has so far been very good about enabling you to mix-and-match what you want to use and what you don't. Assuming such a book fits in with the other Ultimate series books, it will have options that work regardless of whether you're using the other rules or not, or it will call out exactly how it works with them if you are. I think you can rest assured that it will stand alone quite well.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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The Ultimate series has so far been very good about enabling you to mix-and-match what you want to use and what you don't. Assuming such a book fits in with the other Ultimate series books, it will have options that work regardless of whether you're using the other rules or not, or it will call out exactly how it works with them if you are. I think you can rest assured that it will stand alone quite well.I think there's certainly room for that on the docket!A castle and fortification rulebook? If I can use that without owning any of the other Ultimate books, I'll buy it.
That has certainly been our intention in creating rules expansion modules for mass combat and kingdom-building. They do work seamlessly together, and with the official rules for both in Ultimate Campaign, since all were created by the same designer, but you can also mix and match as you choose to calibrate the play experience to be what you want it to be.
I will so buy an Ultimate Stronghold book! I am waiting somewhat...patiently...for a Reign of Winter Ultimate Relationships too, =)
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You know I'm definitely looking forward to the Ultimate Armies book. Been waiting on that one for a loooooooong time, since it is required for the work I am trying to do and jury-rigging the current armies with different races and different layouts has so proven difficult for me. If you did an Ultimate Marketplace book (a book about trade goods as I have only found one book on trade goods), that would be great. Someone above mentioned Ultimate Strongholds and I agree entirely on that one.
On second place, Kingdom-Building would also be great.
Third place would be... well, those are really the only two I have interest in, really. So, whatever else that floats your boat.
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I second Thurazor's remarks about Ultimate Armies and the other two Ultimate books. And yes, more for the Kingdom Building AP would be great.