Homebrew Feat: Unarmored Agility


Homebrew and House Rules


Hi all,

I know there are a few ways already to improve a character's AC while not wearing armor, but usually these are very specific and tied to certain classes.

I wanted something that anybody could get if the player does want to play an unarmored character because it fits the concept.

I borrowed the idea from 4th Edition D&D. A feat called Unarmored Agility.

Unarmored Agility (Combat Feat)
While others rely on armor for protection, you trust your wit, your keen senses and your natural agility to stay out of harm's way.
Prerequisite: Dex 17, Int or Wis 13, Dodge
Benefit: While you wear no armor you get a +2 dodge bonus to your AC. This bonus stacks with other dodge bonuses. If you are denied your Dex bonus to AC you also lose your dodge bonuses.

What do you think? Unnecessary? Overpowered?

Note: Edited after feedback.

My thoughts:
This feat can be pretty powerful since it stacks with other dodge bonuses, so for example with Dodge and Mobility you get +7 AC vs. Attacks of Opportunity while moving. Since you need Dodge also you get +3 AC while stationary (in addition to your normal Dex bonus).

However, the big tradeoff is that you can't wear any armor in order to use it, not even light armor. All other feats or abilities that let you improve your AC usually allow the use of light armor. Also, you don't want to get caught flat-footed ever, since then your effective AC would be 10 (unless you have some additional defensive items).

Then again, since you don't need armor you have other advantages: You can carry more stuff before becoming encumbered, you don't suffer any armor check penalties and from a role-playing point of view you might come across as harmless and people might underestimate you.

It is the perfect feat for swashbuckling archetypes or characters, but also for Wizards and such.

Since I don't know Pathfinder in and out I don't know if something similar already exists, so a heads up in that regard would be appreciated.


I see what you're going for and I like the theme, but it seems really powerful. I certainly appreciate anything that makes a wider variety of concept viable though, so I'll do my best to help.

If I was designing this feat, I'd bump the requirements up quite a bit. As is, it would be fairly easy for just about anyone to grab right away. While some concepts and classes would benefit a lot (like a swashbuckling character or the like) it's a bit much for something like a Wizard, who can already kick his AC up by +8 with two 1st level spells to get another permanent +4 on top of that.

With this set-up, a 1st level human wizard can have an AC of 24 with 13 Dex, Dodge, this feat, Mage Armor, and Shield, which is way too much. Also, for martial classes the already require no armor (like a Monk) they mostly get a static AC bonus from their class, and this just makes them a lot better outright. Of course, giving a monk nice things is good since they could use it and anything that gives a little boon to martial classes is fun, but it can unbalance a game with something this easy to get. The flat-footed thing helps mitigate it somewhat, but not enough to make it so easy to get and with it so easy to abuse by classes that don't get armor, but really don't need it due to other skills.

I'd say make it require 17 Dex, 13 Int, Dodge and Mobility. That's at least a bit harder to get and nobody is taking it at 1st level.


Thanks for the feedback.

I see the point with the Wizard, however, you are restricted to a human character in order to pick it up right away, since you get two feats.

I wanted the requirements to be fairly low so people can realize their character concept early in the game but maybe +4 is a little to much. The D&D feat I mentioned gave +2 but this was not a dodge bonus so it was always active (there was no such thing as flat-footed in D&D 4).

So maybe if it was toned down a bit like this:

Unarmored Agility (Combat Feat)
While others rely on armor for protection, you trust your wit, your keen senses and your natural agility to stay out of harm's way.
Prerequisite: Dex 17, Int or Wis 13, Dodge
Benefit: While you wear no armor you get a +2 dodge bonus to your AC. This bonus stacks with other dodge bonuses. If you are denied your Dex bonus to AC you also lose your dodge bonuses.

This way you need to invest heavily into Dex, making it less attractive for casters who also need other high stats, you would have to play a human to get it right away and if combined with other AC improving abilities it is not as powerful. As for the casters, they still need to expend spells to get Mage Armor and Shield which are limited to a few times a day at low levels.


Dodge bonuses are the only type of named bonuses that stack, regardless of source, so it's kinda redundant to say it stacks with other dodge bonuses.


The problem with the feat is that it is will be there for monks, Sacred fists, and kensai magi that already have insanely good AC. It is no problem that other rogues or barbarians get a +2 Dodge it they go with out armor but it is not good that the already AC addequate unarmored get it.


Once you reach a certain dex you already can't wear armors with more than +2 AC or even +1 AC. If you're at that point there is close to no drawback to taking this feat.

With deadly agility a thing in some groups this feat is too much in my book.
And as Cap. Darling stated, it improved the armor of some classes that already have the highest AC.
And it seems to stack with bracers of armor.

Quote:
What do you think? Unnecessary? Overpowered?

I do not like the prereqs, I do not like the benefit and I think it is too strong when combined with some other abilities and/or feats.

I WOULD like a feat for unarmored protection with a strength prerequisite because most of the builds getting too much out of such a feat dump strength. And it could make a loin-cloth-barbarian workable.


I don't see the issue honestly.

+2 AC for a feat is already a thing. Armor of the Pit exists. On the one hand this is applicable to a broader range of characters, on the other it has a terrible pre-req.

The greater issue I see is that it's not going to make anyone unarmored without some bonus like the Monk into a viable combatant. When even the worst armor is eventually worth +6 AC and your standard Light Armor character is going to start with a +4 AC, it's hard to see a +2 as a worthwhile replacement.

But on the flip side, any more than +2 is going to be broken.


kestral287 wrote:

When even the worst armor is eventually worth +6 AC and your standard Light Armor character is going to start with a +4 AC,

Your unarmored guy will eventually have +5 from bracers of armor, too.


Thanks for all the feedback.

I really want this to work without being overpowered so what about this variant:

Unarmored Agility (Combat Feat)
While others rely on armor for protection, you trust your wit, your keen senses and your natural agility to stay out of harm's way.
Prerequisite: Dex 17,Wis 13,Dodge
Benefit:
When unarmored and unencumbered, you add your Wisdom bonus to your AC. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to AC at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four character levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply against touch attacks but not when flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, carry a shield other than a buckler, or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

So basically it is the monk's class feature as a feat, however slightly weaker (no CMD bonus, doesn't work while flat-footed) but it does allow a buckler. It makes it obsolete for monks or other classes that already have a similar ability and it makes it somewhat unattractive for wizards since they have to invest in Dexterity and Wisdom besides Intelligence.

So a Dex 18, Wis 14 hero would have an AC of 17 with dodge while unarmored. Of course the same hero would have 19 with dodge while wearing a chain shirt but he would also suffer the -2 armor check penalty on Acrobatics, Stealth and such.

Better?


Regarding the new version of the feat: There's an existent 3rd party feat out there-- lord if I can remember the name off-hand-- that provided similar scaling bonuses; I think it capped at +6 but no Wis mod addition.

It was pretty much the most disgustingly powerful thing for a Kensai.

This one is... marginally better. Any Kensai worth their salt is just going to sink the money they would spend on armor into upgrading their Headband to +Int/Wis and ultimately come out ahead; they'll gain at least 1 AC from the deal on top of the various other benefits that come from supporting Wis. So strictly better than Dodge, etc., if they have a positive Wis mod strictly better than Armor of the Pit, if they have the ability to obtain Wishes vastly better than everything else. Notably this will matter most at mid-to-higher levels; if you never get that far then screw it.

So you make Magi better. The problem is... who else do you make better?

Well, sure, Monks and Sacred Fists don't change. Some Clerics and Druids might like it but they're still worse off. Everybody else?

They're still going to be better off wearing armor. You've improved existing unarmored combat archetypes (that don't use Wis now), but you haven't made new ones possible. That Kensai is pulling +1-2 AC, maybe more if they overinvest, over a Haramaki. Light armors that are actually good provide considerably more than +1-3 AC over a Haramaki.

So, incentives-wise you haven't solved your problem.

Just a Guess wrote:
kestral287 wrote:

When even the worst armor is eventually worth +6 AC and your standard Light Armor character is going to start with a +4 AC,

Your unarmored guy will eventually have +5 from bracers of armor, too.

Screw Bracers of Armor; Haramaki is the way to go. That's that +6; it's a +1 AC armor, so it'll cap at +6 AC after enchants.


Alright, then let's try to solve the problem the other way around.

I want to play a human Rogue using the Swashbuckler archetype or a Swashbuckler (class).

I am a disinherited son of a minor noble house who focused on having fun, screwing around, gambling, drinking and overall unappropriate behavior, which got my disinherited. Basically my family is through with me. I get by using my natural charm, wit and good looks together with my natural agility and my prowess with the rapier (when I was still with my family I had a good teacher).

In my mind I picture this character as a well-dressed charming dandy who fights using a rapier and acrobatic moves and dodges. Wearing any form of armor just doesn't fit the concept in my mind even though you could argue that I could just wear a chain shirt underneath a loose fitting shirt so it wouldn't really show.

However, the only reason I would do that are the game mechanics and the way AC is calculated. There is not really a role-playing reason to do it. The iconic swashbucklers (Zorro, D'Artagnan) after which I want to model my character don't wear armor. The Swashbuckler's class ability is not good enough at early levels to go without armor.

So how would you solve this issue?

I need something that provides an AC bonus while unarmored to make this concept work. It needs to be good enough at early levels to make forgoing armor a viable choice but it still needs to be balanced. Suggestions?

Is it even possible?


You could add levels in a class that gives int, wis or cha to AC. Or take the crane style feat and fight defensively.
Later take the duelist Prc to get int to AC and wear a haramaki or bracers of armor.
A buckler would fit the description, too.

Most strength based builds I have seen start with an AC of 14-16. A swashbuckler can easily get that without wearing armor.

Swashbuckler AC: 17 (+4 Dex, +1 Buckler, +1 haramaki, +1 Dodge)
Barbarian/fighter/ranger AC (not raging): 14 (+1 Dex, +3 studded leather*)
*For many builds 100gp for a chain shirt is just too expensive to start with.

No need to create additional feats that might unbalance the game later on. Or with different builds.

Edit:
If you go the crane style route take 1 level of martial artist monk or sohei at levels 2 or 3. Once you have 3 ranks in acrobatics and crane wing fighting defensively becomes good. For -2 to hit you get +4 to AC. You can take dodge as a bonus feat, freeing up your first level feat.
Now you have dex, wis, dodge and the defensive fighting bonus to AC. Which should be something around AC 21. All without armor or shield.


I dont think the swash buckler have AC problems past the middle levels. The get a scaling AC bonus that will eventually make them just as good as a full plate character and most likely with better dex than most full plate dudes. Rogues have Lots of problems and low AC is generally one of them, i gave them the gunslinger nimble class feature to compensate.


The simplest way within current framework is a glamered armor.

With a new feat:

Unarmored Agility (Combat Feat)
While others rely on armor for protection, you trust your wit, your keen senses and your natural agility to stay out of harm's way.
Benefit: While unarmored and unencumbered, you may add your Dexterity bonus to AC a second time. If you already add any attribute other than Dexterity to your AC, you instead gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC.

Helps Monks/Sacred Fists, but not the capable-of-wearing-armor Kensais, helps unarmored casters but only to a point, lets you run Dex hilariously-SAD but at the cost of... most of your feats at this point. And barring weird games it shouldn't scale up any better than going full-armor (not to mention losing the special abilities)

Option B would be to simply turn Canny Defense into a feat. That makes Wizards awesome though.


Glamered armor wouldn't cut it because it still has all the properties of the armor that it disguises, like weight and armor check penalty.

I do like the version of the feat though. If you add the prerequisite of Dex 17 and Dodge you would make it less attractive for casters since they need to invest heavily into Dex and suffer a drawback on their more important stats and only Humans could take it at first level because of the need for Dodge.

Then again you could not also take Weapon Finesse at first level unless you play a Swashbuckler which would fit the theme perfectly. And even if combined with the Swashbucklers class ability that scales it would not be overpowered because it is basically like wearing a better chain shirt at higher levels but without any magic special abilities.

Human Rogues could get it at level two if they take the Combat Trick rogue talent with Weapon Finesse and Dodge taken at first level.

With Dex 18 and a Swashbuckler you would have AC 19 (+4 Dex, +4 from adding Dex again, +1 Dodge) and thanks to the Swashbuckler Finesse ability you could also use a rapier effectively. The next feat would then be Deadly Agility.

I like it :-)


Casters aren't likely to invest enough into Dex to make it viable for them until the endgame, and for the caster it's competing against the same thing it is for the Kensai: the +5 Haramaki. Enough Dex to match the gains is something that they'll eventually get, but a Belt of Physical Stat is fairly low on the Caster Priority List. Even then, Arcane Caster AC is nigh-unsalvageable unless you really pour resources into it.

I also wouldn't use a Dodge pre-req simply because I despise the golden four pre-req feats. Feat taxes aren't a good idea in my mind, and Dodge doesn't do enough to ever be worthwhile on its own. Feat chains are good; taxes are bad.

Dex pre-req seems wasted because we already know who's going to take the feat: those with a high Dex. So limiting it to only those who are already going to take it doesn't help, and it hurts concepts badly in low-point-buy games or MAD builds, where Dex 17 suddenly becomes hard to hit. Since this is ultimately a concept feat, I'd want to enable concepts, not disable them.

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I'd be interested in a feat that made no armor viable for classes besides Monk. Something that doesn't stack with those class features, and gives a measure of protection based on your armor proficiency.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
I'd be interested in a feat that made no armor viable for classes besides Monk. Something that doesn't stack with those class features, and gives a measure of protection based on your armor proficiency.

There's honestly a fair few floating around.

Amusingly, Necromancers of the Northwest put out something highly similar to what I pitched. Unarmored Specialist is a +2 Dodge bonus to AC while unarmored; Improved Unarmored Specialist doubles your Dex bonus. The major difference is that Improved requires Evasion as a pre-req, so it works for a very limited number of classes.

Tripod Machine's Agile Defense is the feat I was thinking of when I commented on one above. It is... not a well-designed feat, in my opinion.

I like to think the one I just pitched did a decent job of it though.


Just wanted to let you know, I really like the feat kestral287 posted and I will use it in my home campaign without the prerequisites for the reasons stated by him.

I will play a human swashbuckler with the following stats:
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14

Traits:
Reactionary
Charming

Feats:
Unarmored Agility
Deadly Agility

Trained Skills (6 ranks, 4 base + 1 human +1 favored class):
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Perception
Escape Artist
Knowledge (nobility)

Gear:
explorer's outfit
rapier
5 x dagger
backpack, bedroll, blanket, waterskin, rope and grappling hook, flint and steel, wheatstone, signal whistle, chalk

AC 18 (+4 Dex, +4 Dex due to Unarmored Agility), Flat-Footed 10, Touch 18, better not get caught flat-footed

Attack: +5 rapier, 1d6+4 damage


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noldunar wrote:

Just wanted to let you know, I really like the feat kestral287 posted and I will use it in my home campaign without the prerequisites for the reasons stated by him.

I will play a human swashbuckler with the following stats:
Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 14

Traits:
Reactionary
Charming

Feats:
Unarmored Agility
Deadly Agility

Trained Skills (6 ranks, 4 base + 1 human +1 favored class):
Acrobatics
Bluff
Diplomacy
Perception
Escape Artist
Knowledge (nobility)

Gear:
explorer's outfit
rapier
5 x dagger
backpack, bedroll, blanket, waterskin, rope and grappling hook, flint and steel, wheatstone, signal whistle, chalk

AC 18 (+4 Dex, +4 Dex due to Unarmored Agility), Flat-Footed 10, Touch 18, better not get caught flat-footed

Attack: +5 rapier, 1d6+4 damage

as a swashbuckler your AC will be around that of the Armor melee classes, figther, paladin, cavalier among others. Dex to AC a second time is total out of line and will make a mockery of every one putting on armor. Unless you make feats that allow str to damage again and str to AC.


I don't see the problem because I could just put on a chain shirt and have the same AC.

Granted, I would take a -2 ACP to Acrobatics and Escape Artist but I also would have a flat-footed AC of 14 instead of just 10 and I don't have the option for enhancement bonuses or other special abilities that might be granted by magic armor at higher levels.

So basically you trade magical special abilities and higher AC bonuses granted my magic armor for mobility and weight, which does not really help you if you are ambushed, don't roll a high enough initiative (flat-footed) or are otherwise denied your Dex bonus.

And as kestral stated you don't get to add Dex another time if you instead add any other ability modifier to AC.

So where do you see the problem exactly? This is an honest question, I don't want to mock you or anything. Just looking for input from people with better system mastery than I have.

Because for me it does not look severely unbalanced on paper.


noldunar wrote:


Granted, I would take a -2 ACP to Acrobatics and Escape Artist but I also would have a flat-footed AC of 14 instead of just 10 and I don't have the option for enhancement bonuses or other special abilities that might be granted by magic armor at higher levels.

Yes, you have that: Bracers of armor.

You just seem to want to get more AC without drawbacks. And with a high dex you have a higher intitiative as well and are less likely to be flatfooted.


I don't want to get more AC without drawbacks. I just want to get the same AC without armor that I could get with armor because wearing armor does not fit my character concept. The price I pay for that is expending a feat slot.

So it is not without drawbacks:

1. I have to expend a feat slot.

2. I am screwed if I get caught flat-footed. Even with a high Dex you can roll low and also there are ambushes and surprise rounds.

The only drawback of light armor is a check penalty of -2. You can even sleep in light armor without problems.

After a few sessions you should be able to afford a masterwork chain shirt which has only a -1 penalty, so that is not really a drawback anymore.

Regarding bracers of armor: That could be exploitable but what about if the suggested feat is slightly reworded?

Benefit: While unarmored and unencumbered, you may add your Dexterity bonus to your AC a second time as an armor bonus. However, any situation that makes you lose your Dex bonus makes you lose this bonus as well. If you already add any attribute other than Dexterity to your AC, you instead gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC.

As far as I know, armor bonuses do not stack. So this way you need at least bracers of armor +5 in the example of my swashbuckler for them to start working at which point the +5 replaces your second time Dex modifier. Also you can't combine the feat with mage armor.

Better?


Yes, better. This rewording closes some of the exploitable loopholes. I would not change the type of AC to dodge when a second stat is added to dex already.
As written a monk with bracers of armor (or mage armor) would still get dex, wis, bracers and +2 dodge from this feat. Which is double what dodge gives.


Dodge is underpowered as all hell. A +2 was intentional, that's in line with Armor of the Pit.

Swashbuckler with the feat is better off than a Swash without the feat... but he has to fit it in around his Dex-to-Damage, his Power Attack, and his "My Will save sucks but I don't want to die".

The simplest rewording would be to change "unarmored" to "while not benefiting from an armor bonus to AC". I didn't feel it necessary because Bracers of Armor are kind of a joke to me, but if that makes you feel better it's a fine addition. I don't like the Armor Bonus because that gets wonky with flat-footed, but it wouldn't be the first.

Also, the long-game view: Dex will cap, at absolute max, at 20+6+5+5=36=+13 bonus. That's actually under what Full Plate grants (because if we're assuming 5 Wishes, we can assume +5 Full Plate). That was also intentional. Your AC will be good, but not over what can already be gained.


noldunar wrote:

I don't see the problem because I could just put on a chain shirt and have the same AC.

Granted, I would take a -2 ACP to Acrobatics and Escape Artist but I also would have a flat-footed AC of 14 instead of just 10 and I don't have the option for enhancement bonuses or other special abilities that might be granted by magic armor at higher levels.

So basically you trade magical special abilities and higher AC bonuses granted my magic armor for mobility and weight, which does not really help you if you are ambushed, don't roll a high enough initiative (flat-footed) or are otherwise denied your Dex bonus.

And as kestral stated you don't get to add Dex another time if you instead add any other ability modifier to AC.

So where do you see the problem exactly? This is an honest question, I don't want to mock you or anything. Just looking for input from people with better system mastery than I have.

Because for me it does not look severely unbalanced on paper.

imagine this character survive and live until level 8.'at that time he will have dex 22(because of 2 level ups and a belt) and his AC with out any thing on will be 24 next to him is his figther buddy in a full plate with a shield and the Dodge feat and dex 14( he also had to buy str in the start of the game remember). He also gets 24. If that is no problem to you then fine but pehaps the guy in the full plate feels differently.

As i said if you allow him str to AC and once more to damage with pehaps a few feats. It will be fine but i doubt you think that would be fair.
You will hit for 1d6+17 with out any magic and with weapon spec.
He will hit for 1d10+16 with power attack and weapon spec.
You hit a little better than him (3 at this level) and he hits a little better than you. He have spend one feat more to get a bastard sword but that is about it.
Imagine now if some one half decent at making characters got there hands on these two.
I know figther is not the Perfect class to balance against but this is a AC and dama comparison and ther it is ok. If you and your GM dont see a problem in any of the above then i am sure it will work fine in your home game.


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kestral287 wrote:


Also, the long-game view: Dex will cap, at absolute max, at 20+6+5+5=36=+13 bonus. That's actually under what Full Plate grants (because if we're assuming 5 Wishes, we can assume +5 Full Plate). That was also intentional. Your AC will be good, but not over what can already be gained.

So with a dex of 36 and a bonus of 13 this guy has an AC of 36 (10 base) +13 (dex) +13 (second time dex) without anything else.

The guy in fullplate +5 has 10 (base) +14 (Armor) +1 (max dex)=25
So you think it is balanced that the guy who pays 1 feat has 11 more AC than the guy in fullplate +5?


I have never played a campaign where the characters got higher than level 7 or 8, so I am not familiar with high level PF play and with all the magic item stuff you can get as well as with all the optimizing options.

We were always struggling to aquire a few magic items. Actually the setting was more gritty fantasy than high fantasy with little magic and mean nobles and a suffering common populace. It was still fun though.

So if you can really go up to 36 Dex and a +13 bonus then indeed, a difference of 11 AC compared to +5 full plate would be to much. Then again, I think at high levels there are a ton of options available for opponents to enforce conditions on you that deny you your Dex bonus to AC. In this case you would immediatly drop back to AC 10 while the plate guy still has AC 24. So the unbalance would be mitigated in part by the risk of not getting your Dex bonus which leaves you naked.

However, I think we are getting there :-)

New try:

Unarmored Agility (Combat Feat)
While others rely on armor for protection, you trust your wit, your keen senses and your natural agility to stay out of harm's way.
Benefit: While unencumbered and not benefiting from an armor bonus to AC, you may add your Dexterity to AC a second time, up to a maximum of +5. A situation that makes you lose your Dex bonus makes you lose this bonus as well. If you already add any additional attribute modifier other than Dexterity to your AC, you instead gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC.

In the example above that would be an AC of 28 (10 base + 13 Dex + 5 second time Dex capped). That would be three more than the guy in plate has, however at the risk of losing everything while getting caught flat-footed or affected by a negative condition.


This feat seems to be intended for unarmored full BAB classes. Why not just make it scale with BAB?

Unarmored Agility
Armor slows you down. Your defense relies on nimbleness alone.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Wis OR Int 13, Dodge, BAB +1
Benefit: While you are unencumbered and wearing no armor, you gain a +1 Dodge bonus on AC. This bonus increases by 1 at every increment of 4 your BAB reaches. Increase this bonus by 50% if you're using Combat Expertise.


Cuup wrote:

This feat seems to be intended for unarmored full BAB classes. Why not just make it scale with BAB?

Unarmored Agility
Armor slows you down. Your defense relies on nimbleness alone.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Wis OR Int 13, Dodge, BAB +1
Benefit: While you are unencumbered and wearing no armor, you gain a +1 Dodge bonus on AC. This bonus increases by 1 at every increment of 4 your BAB reaches. Increase this bonus by 50% if you're using Combat Expertise.

This is a good suggestion.


Cuup wrote:

This feat seems to be intended for unarmored full BAB classes. Why not just make it scale with BAB?

Unarmored Agility
Armor slows you down. Your defense relies on nimbleness alone.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Wis OR Int 13, Dodge, BAB +1
Benefit: While you are unencumbered and wearing no armor, you gain a +1 Dodge bonus on AC. This bonus increases by 1 at every increment of 4 your BAB reaches. Increase this bonus by 50% if you're using Combat Expertise.

Doesn't scale well enough to be worth using instead of armor, hits the existent problem of being an auto-grab for Monks and something to ignore for everyone else.

1/2 BAB might work. Still needs an anti-Monk/Kensai/other related classes clause though. And my hatred of the Dodge pre-req remains strong.

Just a Guess wrote:
kestral287 wrote:


Also, the long-game view: Dex will cap, at absolute max, at 20+6+5+5=36=+13 bonus. That's actually under what Full Plate grants (because if we're assuming 5 Wishes, we can assume +5 Full Plate). That was also intentional. Your AC will be good, but not over what can already be gained.

So with a dex of 36 and a bonus of 13 this guy has an AC of 36 (10 base) +13 (dex) +13 (second time dex) without anything else.

The guy in fullplate +5 has 10 (base) +14 (Armor) +1 (max dex)=25
So you think it is balanced that the guy who pays 1 feat has 11 more AC than the guy in fullplate +5?

Yes.

First off, that's not a realistic build for a level 20 character using Full Plate. It'll be Mithril Plate at the worst, more likely Celestial Plate Armor, with at least some GMs Mithril Celestial Plate. He'll have the money to up his Dex with a belt at the least (which he wants anyway). So call it +6 Dex, not +1. Now we're at 36 vs. 30.

By level 20 standards, neither has invested anything significant-- in fact, I would even say that the guy who spent the feat invested more. Full Plate Guy has spent 41,000 on his armor, which is under 5% of his wealth, compared to Dex Guy who's spent 5% of his feats at worst, probably somewhere between that and 10%. To me, that's roughly similar investment.

Further, the Heavy Armor character has more capability to increase his AC than the naked guy, as well as having more extra capabilities from his armor (like, you know, the ability to fly). He also carries a more balanced defensive setup. When you add in the bonuses we know they'll have (at least another +12 AC for basic protective items), the AC comparison jumps to 48 vs. 42-- but flat-footed is 22 vs. 36, while Touch is 43 vs. 23. Personally, I fear attacks against my flat-footed more than attacks against my touch. You may disagree, of course. But in my experience Touch is most often aimed at by casters, and if a caster wants to kill you at level 20... you're pretty much going to die and he's just picking which of your weak spots he should aim at. I guess the Full Plate guy is more intimidated by Alchemists?

Ultimately the Dex build winds up ahead of a full plate two-hander in AC but behind a build that invests in shield combat (at high levels, mind, that's a really good choice), and overall the difference of six AC is going to be marginal as often as not. Almost anyone who has trouble hitting either one's AC has much better options to target.

And, of course, getting to that level is an issue. Drop things back to, say, level 16. The Dex-guy's AC just dropped six points, but the Full Plate guy's AC only dropped marginally (he's probably not capping the Dex bonus of his armor, I'd roughly figure two points shy), since he can pretty easily afford the 41k on armor by that point.

So overall: yeah, I call it fair. Similar resource investment, similar results.

That said, if I could edit the posited feat I would expand it to read "while unencumbered and not benefiting from an Armor or Shield bonus".


Cuup wrote:

This feat seems to be intended for unarmored full BAB classes. Why not just make it scale with BAB?

Unarmored Agility
Armor slows you down. Your defense relies on nimbleness alone.
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Wis OR Int 13, Dodge, BAB +1
Benefit: While you are unencumbered and wearing no armor, you gain a +1 Dodge bonus on AC. This bonus increases by 1 at every increment of 4 your BAB reaches. Increase this bonus by 50% if you're using Combat Expertise.

Why the dex requirement?


Shrug

I basically copy pasted the OP's prerequisites and added BAB +1. I suppose it doesn't need to be that high, though it WOULD need to be at least 13 to meet the Dodge feat's prerequisite.


Quick Update:
So after following the discussion and the calculations laid out by kestral287 we settled on the following version of the feat:

Unarmored Agility (Combat Feat)
While others rely on armor for protection, you trust your wit, your keen senses and your natural agility to stay out of harm's way.
Benefit: While unencumbered and not benefiting from an armor or shield bonus to AC, you may add your Dexterity to AC a second time. A situation that makes you lose your Dex bonus makes you lose this bonus as well. If you already add any additional attribute modifier other than Dexterity to your AC, you instead gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC.

I played my swashbuckler and took Unarmored Agility and Deadly Agility as starting feats. I had 18 Dex and an AC of 18 unarmored by adding Dex to AC two times. My traits were Reactionary and Charming.

We played a session with just me and the GM. On our table, all rolls in combat are made out in the open. No hidden dice rolls, no fudging, no GM "adjustments". We like it that way because we like the real possibility of actually dying in combat, even if it is just a lowly random encounter.

Anyhow, I got to experience the drawback of the feat firsthand and that is getting caught flat-footed. I headed out into the wilderness to investigate a recent increase in goblin raids against trading convoys. I came across some ruins which I wanted to investigate. Inside, three bandits with shortbows (AC 13, +3 ranged, shortbow 1d6, 3 hp each) were hiding and had prepared an ambush.

I failed a DC 15 Perception check and was ambushed. In the surprise round, all of them shot at me. Since I was flat-footed my AC was 10 and I got hit two times, leaving me with 4 hp. Then it was initiative time. I had a +6 modifier and felt pretty confident against their +2. I rolled a 14 for a total of 20 and they rolled 20 for a total of 22. So I was still flat-footed with AC 10 and dead by the time it was my turn.

Because of all the stuff that happened before it was still a fun session but I think the threat of an ambush, a low initiative roll or the possibilities at higher levels to inflict disabeling conditions that deny you your Dex bonus helps to balance the feat since you lose a lot of AC if you rely on your Dex bonus and your Dex bonus is suddenly gone.


^And thus why I find a low flat-footed AC much more dangerous than a low Touch. Worst-case a low Touch gets you carpet-bombed by a pack of Alchemists, but that's much more niche than a low flat-footed.

There are a few outs-- the Rogue, thanks to Uncanny Dodge, doesn't worry too much. Same for the Barbarian. But making the Rogue more viable reads as a good thing to me (assuming they can afford to max-pump Dex), and the Barbarian has precious little reason to max-pump Dex so while their AC might be more consistent it's going to be lower. Urban Barbarians might be problematic though. Worth considering.

There are a few classes who can just hit crazy-high initiatives. Of them, the Cleric doesn't particularly care about Dex, the Kensai Magus only gets +2 off the feat, and the Wizard is going to be pushing Int hard so Dex is their secondary stat at best-- they do get less squishy, and the feat's a strong option for them, but they're not going to hit anywhere near the Dex needed to beat out Full Plate Guy. Or probably Breastplate Guy.

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