Scorpion Whip FAQ request #584


Rules Questions

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124 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 6 people marked this as a favorite.

*does his summon Paizo Devs dance*

Please Paizo, Devs. We are looking for an answer on the Scorpion Whip. These are things that have desperately needed to be answered for years an have never been made clear. I know it is just one weapon but there are a lot of people waiting to use this pending a ruling but unwilling to use it without one due to the dreaded "table variation".

I think most of these could be answered if we simply asked:
Could you give a description of everything that a Scorpion Whip can do without referencing the Whip.

...then, tell us what it can also do if you have the Whip Proficiency without referencing the Whip.

But if you have to have it in sections then consider these questions, please:
1) Does it function with Whip feats, such as Whip Mastery, or Weapon Focus(Whip)?

2) Can you deal nonlethal, without penalty?

3) Does it threaten?

4) Does it provoke when used?

5) Is it finessable?

6) Can it be enchanted, as a whip?

I'll add a couple more:

7) Does it have reach? How much? Does it threaten within all of it's reach?

8) What special materials can it be made out of?

9) Which feats that apply to Whips can apply to Scorpion Whips? (Whip Mastery line of feats, Weapon Focus, etc.)

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That seems to be a pretty clear post.

Usually, the short, clear, concise questions get answered, but there is bit too much to keep it short, I guess.

Sovereign Court

It's easy enough to give a simple answer to all of these questions, by just recycling the language from composite bows. But we still need the PDT to actually do that.

FAQ'd.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, all these questions are important, but #3 and #4 are especially important, to me.


In case anyone wants a history lesson on this topic I have a fairly thorough post from another thread here:

Lune wrote:

Ok, I just wasted two f%$^ing hours of my life trying to figure out what the hell a Scorpion Whip does. What have I accomplished in that time? Well, obviously I have become fairly annoyed but other than that, not much.

I don't honestly get upset about rulings on things ever. I can't even explain why this has me so annoyed. I think it is mostly because there is just no explanation on it.

This was the latest thread I could find on the topic so rather than starting a new one (which I may still do) I figured I would post here first as this has already been marked as a FAQ candidate multiple times.

Lets review.

This thread is a stinking pile of trash that got me started on my trek for an answer. No offense to the OP or anyone who posted in it. My animosity comes from lack of answers and increase in confusion, not towards any individuals. Nonetheless it does contain some links to developer's posts on the topic.

...including this one. We have blackbloodtroll to thank for getting those answers from JJ. Unfortunately he gave 6 answers to 7 questions and didn't number them so it is anyone's best guess as to which answers belong to which questions. So, no offense to JJ, I'm sure it was an honest mistake but due to this problem his post is a complete waste. :(

There is this additional resources section which refers to Pathfinder Society play and what is legal. Let me shorten it up for you, it says this:

Quote:

Ultimate Equipment...

The scorpion whip found in this book is no longer legal. Please refer to the Adventurer’s Armory for the legal version.

It makes no other mention of the scorpion whip anywhere else in that document.

There is also this thread. Let me shorten...


BBT: To me it is mostly 7 and 9. I kinda need to know that for character building purposes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, I want to have an answer to "I attack with a Scorpion Whip, what happens?".

If it's a Longsword, I have answers.

Basically, I don't want to have a debate when such a simple question is asked.

Shoot, the Barbazu Beard, and Boot Blade are easier to deal with.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

What is the wording difference between the two versions?


Scorpion Whip is, sadly, unusable in PFS because the actual abilities of your weapon will shift wildly depending on whatever your current GM happens to think the rules say.

This is one of the most badly needed FAQs for Pathfinder in years.


Yeah this is a long running issue especially with the multiple changes in how Scorpion whips read.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Shar Tahl wrote:
What is the wording difference between the two versions?

Three versions.


Just taking a look at the OP should show the weapon to have a lot of running issues I will probably post my own rulings on it later.

Scarab Sages

I'd like to add:

10) If the Scorpion Whip has reach and threatens, how does that reach and threat range change with size? What if the wielder uses a Scorpion Whip that is inappropriately sized?

I know JJ posted an unofficial answer to the first part in regards to normal whips: reach triple base creature's, threat range double base creature's (if they have the whip mastery feats to gain a threat range). The problem is it breaks down with tiny or smaller creatures.

And to expand upon question 8:
8a) The Scorpion Whip's description mentions material embedded in the whip ("razor-sharp blades and fangs inset along its tip" - AA); so can materials like adamantium, cold iron, etc be chosen to in the crafting process instead to allow the Scorpion Whip to penetrate damage reduction, or in adamantium's case, hardness 20? What other materials are suitable?

8b) What materials can substitute for the base leather of the Scorpion Whip? Will this affect the hardness and hit points of the Scorpion Whip?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, who has not hit the FAQ button?


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Horselord wrote:

I'd like to add:

10) If the Scorpion Whip has reach and threatens, how does that reach and threat range change with size? What if the wielder uses a Scorpion Whip that is inappropriately sized?

These are actually easy to answer from the basic rules. Even if nonsensical. Reach changes with size based on size. A reach weapon extends an additional 5', and normal weapons never get reach. A large size greatsword is on the order of 10' long, but has no reach. Actual weapon size and reach are completely divorced from each other under the rules.

Grand Lodge

Godwyn wrote:
Horselord wrote:

I'd like to add:

10) If the Scorpion Whip has reach and threatens, how does that reach and threat range change with size? What if the wielder uses a Scorpion Whip that is inappropriately sized?

These are actually easy to answer from the basic rules. Even if nonsensical. Reach changes with size based on size. A reach weapon extends an additional 5', and normal weapons never get reach. A large size greatsword is on the order of 10' long, but has no reach. Actual weapon size and reach are completely divorced from each other under the rules.

I think the question was in regards to the fact that the reach of a standard whip is non-standard, and not properly referenced in the basic rules for the whip, so, if a scorpion whip gains the reach keyword, when it is treated as a whip, how much reach does it get: Standard whip (15'), or standard reach (10')? Does it threaten? If so, does it threaten adjacent and full reach, or partial reach, or what? And, in the whip rules, there is no real information on anything but that single size of whip, so how does changing the size of the whip wielder change the reach?


How I run it at home.....Note this is based on my choices not off of anything seen or said by Dev Team.

1) Does it function with Whip feats, such as Whip Mastery, or Weapon Focus(Whip)? Yes Its a whip.

2) Can you deal nonlethal, without penalty? No I treat it at home similar to how the whips the one guy in underworld used.

3) Does it threaten? I believe yes but can't find any specifics in my notes. Functions as a whip would on this.

4) Does it provoke when used? No

5) Is it finessable? Yes

6) Can it be enchanted, as a whip? Yes

I'll add a couple more:

7) Does it have reach? How much? Does it threaten within all of it's reach? 15Ft like a whip.

8) What special materials can it be made out of? Home game ones are metal so metal ones.

9) Which feats that apply to Whips can apply to Scorpion Whips? (Whip Mastery line of feats, Weapon Focus, etc.) Any.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

one of the Whip feats gives the character the means to threaten (up to 10 ft) squares with the whip. I don't believe the actual Scorpion Whip threatens all by itself. EDIT I just remembered, there is something in AA about it threatening adjacent squares, but I do not have the book in front of me.

The only reason it does not provoke when used is because your hitting with the "hilt" of the scorpion whip, something you can not do with a regular whip.

Scorpion Whip is a lethal weapon, so you do have to take a -4 penalty to do Non-Lethal damage with it. (or use a regular whip)

Other than blanket threatening, I agree with everything Talonhawke has posted.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

And look. Three posts, all of them completely different beliefs on what the Scorpion Whip does.

This is the most FAQ-worthy and FAQ-needed ruling in a long time.

Lantern Lodge

At this point, it might be easiest to simply create a new weapon with its own rules.


Could we add Double Walking Stick Katana to the FAQ?
Do you need EWP to use it as a Quarterstaff?
Is it a swift action to draw them if you have TWF c.f. Sword Stick?
And a Free one with Quick Draw?
Do the swords use the same stats as Wakizashis?
Are they Finessable c.f. Swordstick?
What DC is the perception check to recognise it as what it is?
Is the stated damage just for its use as a Quarterstaff as it's Bludgeoning damage?

and Kusarigama? Double-Chained Kama? Kyoketsu Shoge? Klar? Lungchuan Tamo? etc.

And an updated list for Finesse that makes sense? Should it include Urumi, Kusarigama, Double-Chained Kama, Kyoketsu Shoge, Sansetsukon, Meteor Hammer, Nine-section Whip etc. ?

Seems strange if whip and spiked chain are finessable that these aren't.


I asked James Jacob a similar question concerning the monowhip, which has similar language in being treated as a whip.

Me wrote:
You're the creator of the Monowhip, right? I just had a few small questions; do feats such as Whip Mastery apply to a Monowhip? What about a feat like Weapon Focus: Whip? In a similar vein, if a Kensai Magus takes a Whip as his chosen weapon, can he later use a Monowhip in place of a regular one without loosing access to all of his class features?

This was his response:

James Jacob wrote:
A monowhip is treated as a whip, so the whip feats DO indeed work with it. That's partially why the item is so expensive.

For #9 at least, it would appear that feats & class abilities that apply to the regular Whip should also apply to the Scorpion Whip. That said, James Jacobs =/= design team, yadda yadda blah blah blah.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It should be noted that the Scorpion Whip that is in the Ultimate Equipment will be change to the wording in the Adventurer's Armory in the next printing. I only know this because I had to find out why the (AA) scorpion whip was the only "legal" one for PFS.


So is the one on the PRD up to date or not.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Let's keep this to one weapon at a time.

It is much more likely to be answered that way.


Yep won't do us any good to bog the discussion down in other weapons.


Can any one link me the legal Scorpion whip Want to check it against my earlier post.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't disagree that it would be nice to have answers to these questions, but it seems impossible to me that the devs don't already know these questions exist, and they have not deigned to answer them so far, so I expect that this attempt is futile.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

PFS Scorpion Whip is the AA version.

Scarab Sages

thaX wrote:
It should be noted that the Scorpion Whip that is in the Ultimate Equipment will be change to the wording in the Adventurer's Armory in the next printing. I only know this because I had to find out why the (AA) scorpion whip was the only "legal" one for PFS.

We don't know that the Scorpion Whip in UE is going to revert to the AA version. We only know that until it changes, the AA version is the only one that is legal. The AA version still has some issues. Hopefully the errata's version will be better than the AA version.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
thaX wrote:
It should be noted that the Scorpion Whip that is in the Ultimate Equipment will be change to the wording in the Adventurer's Armory in the next printing. I only know this because I had to find out why the (AA) scorpion whip was the only "legal" one for PFS.
We don't know that the Scorpion Whip in UE is going to revert to the AA version. We only know that until it changes, the AA version is the only one that is legal. The AA version still has some issues. Hopefully the errata's version will be better than the AA version.

My search fu is not up to task, but it is the stated reason that the (AA) version is the only legal one on Hero Lab. Somewhere on this very message board is a statement to this effect.

I just use the AA version and am done with it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, even the AA version has issues.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Lethal vs. Non-Lethal? Threaten adjacent squares? Whip Feats are valid for it?

I am not disputing that there are problems, but the newer source is using the past write up because the new wording brings more questions and no answers.

Half full? Half empty?


Half-full or half-empty we still don't know whats in the glass. we have some ideas and maybe its a drink(whip) because it acts like a drink. Maybe its a cleaner because sometimes it doesn't act like a drink. But if we don't know until we drink it its probably better off staying in the glass.


Does anyone have an up to date home ruling on it they want to share maybe to give an idea of how you think/would like it to work?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Here is my very basic "take."

It is a whip with a razorblade on the end and a "hilt."

Your able to do Whip things, take AoO to adjacent targets and use Whip Feats.

It is normally a Lethal weapon, so you take the penalty (-4) to do Non-Lethal.

Others will hem-haw about this or that, but that is the basic outline on the AA version.


So do you give it whip 15ft reach no threatening or do you give it normal +5ft reach cant threaten adjacent?


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Personally, I treat it exactly like a whip, except for the few things specifically called out as different in the item.

So, just as a whip: 15ft reach, does not threaten, provokes AoO when using, use whip proficiency and feats, finessable, disarm, reach(of 15ft) and trip qualities.

Differences called out in item: deals lethal damage (so need to attack with -4 to deal non-lethal), affects creatures regardless of armor type, deals damage based on scorpion whip (d4 rather than d3 for regular whip).

So add all those together and that's how I treat a scorpion whip...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You threaten adjacent squares with the "hilt" of the scorpion whip. This is different than the normal whip, in which you don't threaten at all without feats.

With the feat (I Believe it is Whip Mastery, I could be wrong), you threaten to 10 feet with either weapon.

Again, that is my "take."

Grand Lodge

thaX wrote:

You threaten adjacent squares with the "hilt" of the scorpion whip. This is different than the normal whip, in which you don't threaten at all without feats.

With the feat (I Believe it is Whip Mastery, I could be wrong), you threaten to 10 feet with either weapon.

Again, that is my "take."

I can understand (well sort of but I 'd completely disagree) how you'd get that for a scorpion whip, but how do you negate the 15' reach of a regular whip?


thaX wrote:
You threaten adjacent squares with the "hilt" of the scorpion whip. This is different than the normal whip, in which you don't threaten at all without feats.

Where does this come from?

Quote:


With the feat (I Believe it is Whip Mastery, I could be wrong), you threaten to 10 feet with either weapon.

Again, that is my "take."

It's Improved Whip Mastery.

Claude, improved whip mastery only grants a 5ft greater than your natural reach for threatening.

Grand Lodge

Sniggevert wrote:
thaX wrote:
You threaten adjacent squares with the "hilt" of the scorpion whip. This is different than the normal whip, in which you don't threaten at all without feats.

Where does this come from?

Quote:


With the feat (I Believe it is Whip Mastery, I could be wrong), you threaten to 10 feet with either weapon.

Again, that is my "take."

It's Improved Whip Mastery.

Claude, improved whip mastery only grants a 5ft greater than your natural reach for threatening.

Gotchya, I missed the part where he said threatening. Regular whip can attack to 15', but obviously it doesn't threaten.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Looking at it again, I don't see it. I was told this, and that it was a feature of the Scorpion whip, but it seems I was duped.

Adventurer's Armory wrote:
Scorpion Whip: This whip has a series of razorsharp blades and fangs inset along its tip. It deals lethal damage, even to creatures with armor bonuses. If you are proficient with whips, you can use a scorpion whip.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So, to clarify, you don't threaten with either unless you have Improved Whip Mastery. To be quite honest, it is a very intensive feat chain.


thaX wrote:
So, to clarify, you don't threaten with either unless you have Improved Whip Mastery. To be quite honest, it is a very intensive feat chain.

Yeah, and you provoke from either IMO if you do not have at least Whip Mastery.

Whips can be cool, but they are definitely feat intensive in their usage.


That's where it gets odd with official rulings nothing in the scorpion whip says it doesn't threaten and based on it's description can't even attack adjacent opponents since its a reach weapon.

Edit: Also Raw a scorpion whip doesn't provoke on use.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Perhaps that is what I was thinking about. No provoking because of being lethal damage and not including it in the description.

Kinda iffy.


Yep it's more confusing that a 3.x Kusuri-Gama

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, Pathfinder Kusurigama is not all that better.

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