tripped on a charge!!! what can the bad guy do now?


Rules Questions


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i was wondering if an enemy had any options after he is trippped on an attack of oppurtunity while charging my character?

seeing that charge is a special full round action. could there be any other action,(standard, move ) that the prone foe could do after the aoo is resolved? he would most likely be prone 10 ft away since the above example was tripped with a reach weapon. 5ft step is obviously out...

ty all bran


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

While charge is a full-round action, it does not consume your free or swift actions. I know there are ways to get the ability to rise from prone as a free or swift action.


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point and laugh


Eternatural 1 wrote:
point and laugh

YOU= 5'Reach

BEBG= 10' Reach

try and trip BEBG while you hang-off the end of his lance.

1st REMEDY= get a reach weapon
2nd REMEDY= specialize whip & trip fighter (feat hungry option)

also laughing.


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Yup, free or swift actions are all that's left after failing a charge. Though if the character in question didn't use their full movement I'd allow this as a free action.


p-sto wrote:
Yup, free or swift actions are all that's left after failing a charge. Though if the character in question didn't use their full movement I'd allow this as a free action.

awesome...

guess i have to look at swift and free actions tables to see what we are up against...lol

"watch out!!! he's using a free action!!!"


However, as SlimGauge suggested there are actually some ways to get access to swift actions that will actually help. Monkey Style allows you to try an acrobatics check to stand as a swift. I believe there's at least one or two other things out there that have a similar affect but off the top of my head I can't remember them.


side thought....
if a disarm was performed on his charge full-round action and was sucessfull at reach or adjacent with aoo having improved trip...

a. could the charging foe switch out to another weapon and finish attack?
b. change his original idea to a bullrush or unarmed attack?

my thought would be the charging foe would have to have quickdraw feat. i also think a charge is a specific full round special action, and changing what kind of attack you do after original idea crapped out is weak and cheesey.

thoughts?

Liberty's Edge

Bran Towerfall wrote:

i was wondering if an enemy had any options after he is trippped on an attack of oppurtunity while charging my character?

seeing that charge is a special full round action. could there be any other action,(standard, move ) that the prone foe could do after the aoo is resolved? he would most likely be prone 10 ft away since the above example was tripped with a reach weapon. 5ft step is obviously out...

ty all bran

This question on being able to take other actions has come up before:

See this recent thread Kiting with 5' Steps???

Also see this thread (and FAQ it)
action expenditure and attacks of opportunity FAQ

Basically it's not clear, some people using this sort of tactic works based on the rules but its a grey area. Others think you get your actions back if an interrupt happens and others think that either way it is a gaming notion and should never be allows to happen no matter what the rules say (gamist notion is specific to the kiting thread).


ty nice threads

i guess the jury is still out. i totally understand pcs or gms being frustrated by a combat reach manuever foe. "what, my turn is over?!?! and he's still got a full action against me, and when i stand up i get attacked again?!?!"


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Well you could chalk that up to charging against an opponent with reach being a really bad tactic unless you're allowed an acrobatic charge and you're really confident you can beat the CMD. Though as a GM I would probably avoid tripping on the AOO unless it seemed appropriate to the creature's tactics.


p-sto wrote:
Well you could chalk that up to charging against an opponent with reach being a really bad tactic unless you're allowed an acrobatic charge and you're really confident you can beat the CMD. Though as a GM I would probably avoid tripping on the AOO unless it seemed appropriate to the creature's tactics.

forgot about rogue talent acrobatic charge. outside of that and maybe spring attack, sit back and let the casters and archers kill him. other possibilty is have pc with highest ac, speed, spell protection soak up all those aoo and pray they dont have combat reflexes.

Silver Crusade

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This topic illustrates why tanking with reach tactics often works out pretty well. Tripping a charging foe is an example of damage mitigation. The creature who was tripped is in an awful tactical situation, and is not likely to survive very much longer. This is one reason why it's a bad idea to charge a foe who has superior reach.

Here's a video of light infantry with defensive pikes withstanding a charge of heavy cavalry [Youtube: Braveheart movie, year 1297 CE]. Note how this infantry could only use their pikes defensively - they had no ability to charge with their pikes. In the late 14th century pike tactics were improved to become primarily offensive. The technique was called Push of Pike, and is just a bunch of people charging with a pike (a big longspear) all at once, in formation. Offensive pike tactics caused the pike square to dominate many Asian and European battlefields for centuries. Note that this sea change in military tactics occurred centuries before the Pathfinder era, so it should be familiar to most Pathfinder characters, if not to most players.

Note that military reach tactics absolutely required teamwork and discipline. One loose cannon idiot who broke formation was a threat to the entire 'allied' unit. Lack of movement discipline or teamwork is usually why reach tactics fail in Pathfinder.

P.s. in answer to the original question, the charging creature who was tripped is limited to Free and Swift Actions. They may take as many such actions as allowed. This will still probably leave them prone & inside their enemies' threatened zone.


Bran Towerfall wrote:

side thought....

if a disarm was performed on his charge full-round action and was sucessfull at reach or adjacent with aoo having improved trip...

a. could the charging foe switch out to another weapon and finish attack?
b. change his original idea to a bullrush or unarmed attack?

my thought would be the charging foe would have to have quickdraw feat. i also think a charge is a specific full round special action, and changing what kind of attack you do after original idea crapped out is weak and cheesey.

thoughts?

I would allow b. but not a.

Mostly because, to the best of my knowledge, you can't use Quickdraw in the middle of an other action... if you would allow a character with Quickdraw to swap from his greatsword to his sheathed greataxe, then I'd say let him do a. also.

b. on the other hand is allowable because he can use either of those options already and doesn't have to technically choose until he is actually making the attack.


Rychard Stormfire wrote:

Mostly because, to the best of my knowledge, you can't use Quickdraw in the middle of an other action... if you would allow a character with Quickdraw to swap from his greatsword to his sheathed greataxe, then I'd say let him do a. also.

b. on the other hand is allowable because he can use either of those options already and doesn't have to technically choose until he is actually making the attack.

ACTIONS IN COMBAT wrote:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of

time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions
while taking another action normally.

Quick Draw is a free action, it can be done during another action.


NikolaiJuno wrote:
Rychard Stormfire wrote:

Mostly because, to the best of my knowledge, you can't use Quickdraw in the middle of an other action... if you would allow a character with Quickdraw to swap from his greatsword to his sheathed greataxe, then I'd say let him do a. also.

b. on the other hand is allowable because he can use either of those options already and doesn't have to technically choose until he is actually making the attack.

ACTIONS IN COMBAT wrote:

Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of

time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions
while taking another action normally.
Quick Draw is a free action, it can be done during another action.

It still has limits. You can't start an attack with a sword, the enemy step away, then Quickdraw a longspear and finish the attack now that you have reach.

Silver Crusade

Actually, one could do that, if only one could find a way to carry a longspear not in hand. Longspears, and all other pole weapons, must be carried in-hand and can not be 'stowed'. That's their great weakness, and the reason why 'sidearms', such as swords and bucklers, are important. PCs seem to usually overlook the issue of polearms, encumbrance, and constantly lugging around a large Battlefield Weapon. A longspear does not fit in a backpack.

The first big magical purchase my reach fighters make is usually a Handy Haversack, just because it can conveniently hold a polearm. This sort of magic effectively turns a big clumsy reach weapon into a sidearm. This is trivial for the player, especially if encumbrance is ignored, but is a huge convenience for the PC.

If you have some way to secure the weapon on your person (not in a Haversack!) then Quickdraw lets you draw it as a free action. The particular example given is truly impossible, simply because there's no way to carry a polearm on your person.

Edit: The rules say nothing about polearm encumbrance. There's no rule that says, "You can't fit an 8' long pole in your 3' backpack" or "you can't wear a polearm on your back". The rules only speak of weight, not encumbrance. This is a common sense thing which is often ignored in-game.


Where exactly is that particular rule- the one about having to stow some weapons vs having others readily at hand without being held in hand? I'm unable to locate it.

-S

Silver Crusade

It's not a game rule. Similarly, there is no game rule that PCs ever need to sleep, eat, or excrete. There's also no game rule that prevents a bludgeoning weapon from cutting a tentacle. The rules are similarly silent on the issue of stowing weapons, which leaves it up to players and the GM, who hopefully uses a modicum of common sense.

Try finding a way to stow an 8' polearm on your person in a way that leaves you able to walk with both hands free. Find an example, in all of recorded history, of someone successfully doing so.


I just wanted to know if you made it up or if it was in a book somewhere since a search of both the equipment section and the equipment guide yielded no information.

Thanks for the answer, try giving it without the lip next time.

-S

Silver Crusade

Sorry.

Grand Lodge

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Magda Luckbender wrote:

It's not a game rule. Similarly, there is no game rule that PCs ever need to sleep, eat, or excrete. There's also no game rule that prevents a bludgeoning weapon from cutting a tentacle. The rules are similarly silent on the issue of stowing weapons, which leaves it up to players and the GM, who hopefully uses a modicum of common sense.

Try finding a way to stow an 8' polearm on your person in a way that leaves you able to walk with both hands free. Find an example, in all of recorded history, of someone successfully doing so.

Not to be cheeky, but in a game with magic, one will always find a way:

Scabbard of Many Blades

Should make for some very funny Free Action combos:

(Assuming, for fun, Imp. Trip, Imp. Grapple, Quick Draw, Combat Reflexes, and Proficencies)

Have a Whip, Ranseur, Mancatcher, and other weapons in Scabbard.

Free Action: Draw a Whip from Scabbard
Full Round Action: Full-Round Attack (Assuming BAB 6/1)
First Attack: Trip with the Whip at 15 ft
Non-Action: 5ft step towards prone target
Free Action: Drop Whip
Free Action: Draw Ranseur
Second Attack: Disarm Prone Target
Swift Action: Switch Ranseur with Mancatcher
Pass turn, wait for attacks of opportunity to grapple the target.

Silver Crusade

Nifty!

Scabbard of Many Blades wrote:
This scabbard can hold multiple melee weapons in an extradimensional space, including weapons that would not normally fit in any kind of scabbard or sheath. It can hold up to four two-handed weapons.

Thank you for pointing that one out!


So, now that storing a pole arm is settled, do you really think you can draw a weapon mid strike?

Grand Lodge

Bran Towerfall wrote:

side thought....

if a disarm was performed on his charge full-round action and was sucessfull at reach or adjacent with aoo having improved trip...

a. could the charging foe switch out to another weapon and finish attack?
b. change his original idea to a bullrush or unarmed attack?

my thought would be the charging foe would have to have quickdraw feat. i also think a charge is a specific full round special action, and changing what kind of attack you do after original idea crapped out is weak and cheesey.

thoughts?

If he is disarmed while charging he still has a couple options. If he has at least one BAB and is charging no further than one move increment, he can draw his weapon for free while charging. Likewise if he has Quickdraw he can draw his weapon for free.

He can totally do an unarmed attack as a charge is "move and attack" not "move and attack with a specific weapon".


Komoda wrote:
So, now that storing a pole arm is settled, do you really think you can draw a weapon mid strike?

if a BBEG drew a secondary weapon during a charge after his first weapon was disarmed with aoo at reach....i don't think it would be out of place for the pc to ask the gm if the BBEG has the quick draw feat.

Grand Lodge

Komoda wrote:
So, now that storing a pole arm is settled, do you really think you can draw a weapon mid strike?

What are you asking? Are you asking whether you can roll to attack, then switch weapons? Because no, that makes no sense.

Are you asking whether you can change weapons as part of a charge, and calling a charge a strike? If so, yes, yes you can:

'Charge' wrote:

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

[...]

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Emphasis mine. The charge rules do not ever say "Before you make the attack" or "Before you finish the movement", therefore you always have the option to draw during a charge, even if you have ended the movement part of the charge.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Komoda wrote:
So, now that storing a pole arm is settled, do you really think you can draw a weapon mid strike?

What are you asking? Are you asking whether you can roll to attack, then switch weapons? Because no, that makes no sense.

Are you asking whether you can change weapons as part of a charge, and calling a charge a strike? If so, yes, yes you can:

'Charge' wrote:

You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

[...]

If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Emphasis mine. The charge rules do not ever say "Before you make the attack" or "Before you finish the movement", therefore you always have the option to draw during a charge, even if you have ended the movement part of the charge.

I was pointing out the limits of free actions:

Komoda wrote:
It still has limits. You can't start an attack with a sword, the enemy step away, then Quickdraw a longspear and finish the attack now that you have reach.

Grand Lodge

What do you mean 'start an attack'? Do you mean make an attack roll? Because I am fairly certain your target can't step away after you have made the roll. But if they could, then yes, you would not be able to swap weapons after the dice has rolled.

Are you meaning before the roll? Then yes, I would say you could drop and draw as free actions to change your reach before you make the attack roll.


Yeah, we went over this in the other thread. Some people seem to believe that there is a phase during your turn when you are swinging a weapon but haven't made a roll to hit, despite no rules supporting this point of view. They believe it is possible to time a readied action to step away as the sword strike is in the process of being delivered, but before the actual roll to hit.

Others disagree.


The above would be because of the trigger of a readied action.

Lets do it this way:

You can't say, "I attack with a bow."
Then your opponent shatters it with an AoO sunder.
Then you draw your sword and attack.

Just because it is a free action, does not mean there are no limits.

Grand Lodge

Komoda wrote:

The above would be because of the trigger of a readied action.

Lets do it this way:

You can't say, "I attack with a bow."
Then your opponent shatters it with an AoO sunder.
Then you draw your sword and attack.

Just because it is a free action, does not mean there are no limits.

The issue with your example is that you are suggesting that you can ready an action as if it is an Attack of Opportunity.

The Attack of Opportunity rules specifically call out interrupting the action. Readying an action is only done in response to an action.

An easier way of saying this:

You say 'I ready an action to attack when he shoots me with his bow.'
The target declares they are making an attack with their bow, while threatened.
Because of the special AoO rules, you can take your AoO before any dice are rolled.
Then, assuming they still can, they attack you with their bow (roll d20, then roll damage).
Then you get your readied action to attack.

So basically, readying an action to happen 'when the target takes an action' is the same as 'after the target takes the action'.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

Yeah, we went over this in the other thread. Some people seem to believe that there is a phase during your turn when you are swinging a weapon but haven't made a roll to hit, despite no rules supporting this point of view. They believe it is possible to time a readied action to step away as the sword strike is in the process of being delivered, but before the actual roll to hit.

Others disagree.

It depends on the phrasing. You could probably ready an action to move away "the moment you are targeted" but not "when he attacks."

When he attacks you, it is too late. However, if he is eyeballing/approaching you (that is, clearly about to target you), you can totally keep your distance.


Aydin, I am not sure what you are saying.

I might have confused you by starting with readied actions. I switched to a different example, using AoOs because the AoO interrupt is less contested, I think, than the readied action one.

Attacking with the bow triggers the AoO.
The threatening character destroys the bow with his AoO.
Do you feel the original attacker, the one that had a bow, can now draw a different weapon with Quickdraw, or do you feel that he cannot?


Ravingdork wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Yeah, we went over this in the other thread. Some people seem to believe that there is a phase during your turn when you are swinging a weapon but haven't made a roll to hit, despite no rules supporting this point of view. They believe it is possible to time a readied action to step away as the sword strike is in the process of being delivered, but before the actual roll to hit.

Others disagree.

It depends on the phrasing. You could probably ready an action to move away "the moment you are targeted" but not "when he attacks."

When he attacks you, it is too late. However, if he is eyeballing/approaching you (that is, clearly about to target you), you can totally keep your distance.

What? I though a very common trigger was, "When he attacks I..." Is that not the case?

Grand Lodge

Komoda wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Yeah, we went over this in the other thread. Some people seem to believe that there is a phase during your turn when you are swinging a weapon but haven't made a roll to hit, despite no rules supporting this point of view. They believe it is possible to time a readied action to step away as the sword strike is in the process of being delivered, but before the actual roll to hit.

Others disagree.

It depends on the phrasing. You could probably ready an action to move away "the moment you are targeted" but not "when he attacks."

When he attacks you, it is too late. However, if he is eyeballing/approaching you (that is, clearly about to target you), you can totally keep your distance.

What? I though a very common trigger was, "When he attacks I..." Is that not the case?

This issue is that 'When he attacks..' sounds like it attempts to interrupt his attack action, when in reality, it happens after he attacks.

'When I might be attacked..' would trigger as the enemy approached, and 'When I am attacked..' would trigger after the attack happens.

Grand Lodge

Komoda wrote:

Aydin, I am not sure what you are saying.

I might have confused you by starting with readied actions. I switched to a different example, using AoOs because the AoO interrupt is less contested, I think, than the readied action one.

Attacking with the bow triggers the AoO.
The threatening character destroys the bow with his AoO.
Do you feel the original attacker, the one that had a bow, can now draw a different weapon with Quickdraw, or do you feel that he cannot?

The archer would not be able to draw a weapon to finish the attack that triggered the AoO. The archer would have to try and finish the attack with the broken or destroyed bow.

But if the archer "provoked" a readied action (Phrased something like "when he takes aim at me") and that sundered the weapon, the archer has not yet made the attack, and would be able to draw a new weapon and attack.


Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Yeah, we went over this in the other thread. Some people seem to believe that there is a phase during your turn when you are swinging a weapon but haven't made a roll to hit, despite no rules supporting this point of view. They believe it is possible to time a readied action to step away as the sword strike is in the process of being delivered, but before the actual roll to hit.

Others disagree.

It depends on the phrasing. You could probably ready an action to move away "the moment you are targeted" but not "when he attacks."

When he attacks you, it is too late. However, if he is eyeballing/approaching you (that is, clearly about to target you), you can totally keep your distance.

What? I though a very common trigger was, "When he attacks I..." Is that not the case?

This issue is that 'When he attacks..' sounds like it attempts to interrupt his attack action, when in reality, it happens after he attacks.

'When I might be attacked..' would trigger as the enemy approached, and 'When I am attacked..' would trigger after the attack happens.

Readied actions happen before the trigger, not after. Of course the goal is to interrupt, that is the exact point of using it as a tactic. It could be a 5'-step, a disarm, a sunder, grapple, or whatever other ability someone might have.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Komoda wrote:
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote:

Yeah, we went over this in the other thread. Some people seem to believe that there is a phase during your turn when you are swinging a weapon but haven't made a roll to hit, despite no rules supporting this point of view. They believe it is possible to time a readied action to step away as the sword strike is in the process of being delivered, but before the actual roll to hit.

Others disagree.

It depends on the phrasing. You could probably ready an action to move away "the moment you are targeted" but not "when he attacks."

When he attacks you, it is too late. However, if he is eyeballing/approaching you (that is, clearly about to target you), you can totally keep your distance.

What? I though a very common trigger was, "When he attacks I..." Is that not the case?

This issue is that 'When he attacks..' sounds like it attempts to interrupt his attack action, when in reality, it happens after he attacks.

'When I might be attacked..' would trigger as the enemy approached, and 'When I am attacked..' would trigger after the attack happens.

Readied actions happen before the trigger, not after. Of course the goal is to interrupt, that is the exact point of using it as a tactic. It could be a 5'-step, a disarm, a sunder, grapple, or whatever other ability someone might have.

Yah, the rules do seem pretty clear, but developers and forum debaters have really muddied the waters.

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