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Warning this thread will give away major spoiler's for Pirate's Promise. It would be too cumbersome to put everything in spoiler tags.
All right I loved a Pirate's Promise so much I wrote Chris A Jackson a e-mail telling him how much so which he responded to. One of the thing I really enjoyed was how he handled Vreva's and Zarina's relationship. It brought me to tears and kept me guessing. When I brought up to him about Zarina's fate...as I can think up a dozen ways she could have survived the end of the book...he said he was undecided if she was alive or not. He than added I should start a discussion to see if I and other fans can convince him to bring her back. So here is my attempt.
There are a number of reasons why I think she should come back.
1) I really fell in love with the character. Even at her darkest I felt more sympathy for her than hate. I would like to see the character continue to grow.
2) Redemption. She does have a moment of redemption at the end...but I would love to see her continue to travel down that path. It is easy to do the right thing in a given moment...but to change your life is much more interesting to me to read about her discovering herself and explore her faith.
3) Her relationship with Vreva. I really thought this was one of the best relationship I have ever read in a novel. I want to see it continue. I want to read their reconciliation talk after they are reunited and the love to continue to grow and evolve. Ultimately I guess I want love to win. I know I am a hopeless romantic.
4) Rescuing her from whatever happened would make a great book for Vreva and the crew of the Stargazer...or maybe Vreva and a different group of allies.
Anyway that is all I have for right now. I'll add anything if I think of something else. But please add your support.
I had a complete brain fart and erased my post. Probably need sleep.
Anyway....
I thought of another reason why....
5) I think a spy sorceress like Vreva and a Inquisitor like Zarina would make a very interesting and fun team working together. I think they could make a great team not only romantically but also professionally.
Another reason...
6) I was thinking about my beloved character's death. I don't mind if it is a good death (like Saffron's which was in character). It is in character. It accomplish something important. And I have to say if Zarina died there it would not be a good death. Vreva was safe...she could have teleported to the Stargazer. Her staying and fighting accomplished nothing. The only reason she had to stay and keep fighting was too die...I just don't see her as that much of a coward. I know her life was shattered but she seemed to be a strong enough person to at least attempt to fix it.
I just want to clarify something about my last post. Even she is dead Pirate's Promise is still a fantastic book. Character's death can be tricky with readers. It is very subjective.
Her 'death' scene was well written and I think brilliant in leaving it open on to rather she is dead or not. In other words it allows the author to test his fanbase if you will.
The thing is though reading the book my eyes to watered up a little...but it was mostly due the fact I was happy that Zarina and Vreva both choose love instead of vengeance or hate. I did feel the need to mourn her.
Anyway I figure I'll clear that up as it seemed a little hostile.
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This is the second time I've gotten the suggestion that maybe Zarina survived... Hmmm... and you give good reasons and compelling ideas about why her survival is a good idea. Hmmm... all good!
Only thing I would say is I wasn't thinking Zarina's fighting was suicidal or cowardly, but a moment of redemption. She did not have unlimited teleport (dimensional hop, actually) and used that up quickly in combat, so she couldn't teleport to Stargazer. Could she have escaped? She was surrounded by slavers... Don't know.
So, you said you had a dozen ways she could have survived or could come back. I can only think of a few, and I don't know about bringing her back as undead... that's kinda icky...
Ideas everyone?
Okay fair point about Zarina's fight I can see that. I could not place how she was teleporting about.
Now how could she have escaped(or more accurately be alive now)...I did say a dozen...I might have exaggerated a little. Let see. Agree no undead.
1) Very mundane way. She could have fallen overboard on the side away from the Stargazer. Grabbed some of the wreckage and drifted till she was picked up...
2) She could have had a teleport magic item keyed to Ketapesh...
3) She could have been given a Refuge (spell in the CRB) Item by the high priest of Abadar in Ketapesh...
4) She could have had a item like the Cloak of the Manta Ray...
5) The Pactmasters of Ketapesh might have intervene...
6) She got into a life boat on the side away from the Stargazer...
7) Someone else might have intervened...
8) She was brought back to life by the Church of Abardar in Ketapesh most likely....though depending on Vreva's report maybe another temple...
9) She was rescued/captured by a aquatic race...
10) Deity Intervention...
11) The contract she signed with the Pactmasters was magical in nature that transported her to the Pactmaster in Ketapesh...
Okay 1 shy of a dozen.
I can think of one more: she could come back as an Axiomite... Don't think I'll go there.
@ David Nielson: LOL
I can think of one more: she could come back as an Axiomite... Don't think I'll go there.
Yeah that would be...strange. And I don't know if that would count. Her sense of duty and devotion to law would return...but would she still be the same woman who had a hard hearted spy fall in love with her?
Two more reasons for you to bring back Zarina...
7) It would be nice for the gang to have a little divine magic. With all the potions of healing they drink through out the novels I am guessing they are Diet Potion of healing or they would a lot larger. ;)
8) Just think of the warm and fuzzy feeling you will get when as you write it imaging the sheer joy I and others will feel when you read it.
Personally, I'm getting a little bored of "reprised" main characters in the PF Tales line. I fully endorse the OP's views about the love story and the great characters (and have enjoyed both the Pirate's... books), but I'd like to read about new, great characters rather than continually revisiting relationships I've already read about. (That's more a comment-to-James-Sutter than comment to the author, I guess).
Perhaps more on topic:
Bringing her back as undead would be icky, but not if she was a ghost - there's plenty of Golarion canon around non-necessarily-evil-ghosts.
Personally, I'm getting a little bored of "reprised" main characters in the PF Tales line. I fully endorse the OP's views about the love story and the great characters (and have enjoyed both the Pirate's... books), but I'd like to read about new, great characters rather than continually revisiting relationships I've already read about. (That's more a comment-to-James-Sutter than comment to the author, I guess).
Perhaps more on topic:
Bringing her back as undead would be icky, but not if she was a ghost - there's plenty of Golarion canon around non-necessarily-evil-ghosts.
Off topic: I kinda like them...I like the feel of ongoing series than say trilogies that I seen done to death fantasy(which I am glad Pazio has stayed away from). Not that I mind the stand alone either. But I think we get enough new books with new characters and the continuing ongoing ones.
On Topic: A ghost could be interesting...though again...there are limits on that I don't want to see in their relationship. A reaction to a ghost would be about 'fixing' it and letting her go...which is not developing the relationship I want to see.
Thanks for the input even if I disagree with it(slightly)...was kinda of hard getting into a discussion with myself. ;)
And if you want to bring up the continuing stories vs one shots on a different thread I would definitely weigh in.
Also forgot...ghosts are icky....have you never seen Ghostbusters? ;)
Part of the reason I suggested the ghost angle was that in Golarion, ghost lore is somewhat unique. Similarly with the afterlife, which would obviously feature at some level and could be good to explore alongside the relationship.
I do agree that it would be easy to fall into cliche - if the story was one big, long 'coming to terms with grief' and 'letting her go' tale, it would be a challenge to make it memorable.
The fantasy element may provide a way out of that, though. There are solutions available in the Golarion setting that may not even be considered in others. (I'll leave the hard bit of actually coming up with those solutions to others :p).
It is just not cliche...'letting go' just seems to be a theme I have been reading a lot lately. I just want something different....it always seems to me when a relationship in novels, movie, or TV shows hits the rocks...it becomes about letting go...letting the person die and not about saving them or working out the problems. It seems that they are going for the easy way out.
And while I can think of plots and such to use...I'll leave that to Chris Jackson's capable hands...if he chooses to do so.
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Personally, I'm getting a little bored of "reprised" main characters in the PF Tales line.
Well, you might be in for some good news on that front.
On topic: you know, it honestly didn't occur to me until I was reading about it on the boards that Zarina might not have survived. My operating assumption, after many years of genre fiction/movies/TV, is that if you don't see the death on screen, the character probably isn't dead. So since we never actually see Zarina's head on a pike, I figured she found a way to survive that battle.
As to how, I figured it was most likely one of three options:
(1) the old clinging-to-a-floating-plank classic;
(2) she either had a contingency get-out-of-disaster-free item/spell effect or saw that somebody else in the melee had one, promptly ganked that guy, and took his ring of water elemental command (or whatever);
or
(3) the slavers captured her alive and kept her alive for the very simple and practical reason that if you're stuck in a lifeboat on the open ocean for an undetermined amount of time, you probably want to keep the lady who can cast Create Water in the lifeboat with you.
I figured #2 was the least likely (Zarina never much struck me as the type to shank-and-steal her way out of trouble, although you never know) and #3 was probably the most likely under the theory that all authors secretly enjoy doing horrible things to their characters.
# 2 makes sense to me in that she was devoted to her duty...and figured she might have a escape method so she could live to report to her superiors.
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It would certainly be interestingto see how she would cope with her belief, feelings and the things she did.
+1 for not dead yet.
It would certainly be interestingto see how she would cope with her belief, feelings and the things she did.
+1 for not dead yet.
Also what she is willing to do to make up for a mislead life.
I wonder if this thread has swayed Chris A Jackson....I don't want to know...I think. I want to be surprised.
It has certainly stimulated my thought process.... ;-)
HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS THREAD BEFOREHAND?!?!
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
I don't know...I even hinted at it over on the Blame Cosmo Thread....there is your answer it is all Cosmo's fault. :)
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I don't know...I even hinted at it over on the Blame Cosmo Thread....there is your answer it is all Cosmo's fault. :)HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS THREAD BEFOREHAND?!?!
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
Just went through your posts on the BCT, wow! Sorry I missed that, if I had seen that I would been over here like a succubus on a pugwampi.
Just went through your posts on the BCT, wow! Sorry I missed that, if I had seen that would been over here like a succubus on a pugwampi.I don't know...I even hinted at it over on the Blame Cosmo Thread....there is your answer it is all Cosmo's fault. :)HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS THREAD BEFOREHAND?!?!
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
It is all right you are here now.
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Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
Not 100% my call, but let's just say you have all stimulated my imagination. Considering it...
I really like the idea of a "Vreva alone" novel. You should all be salivating buckets for the upcoming Pirate's Prophesy...you will see a new side of Vreva Jhafae.
Whose else call is it? So we can start to beg them. ;)
Also I hope Vreva gets a little combat training...just a little.
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!Not 100% my call, but let's just say you have all stimulated my imagination. Considering it...
I really like the idea of a "Vreva alone" novel. You should all be salivating buckets for the upcoming Pirate's Prophesy...you will see a new side of Vreva Jhafae.
I am salivating for Pirate's Prophesy and will probably re-read Pirate's Honor and Pirate's Promise before so. Because I do want to see how the events effect Vreva (or whatever her new name will be).
She lost two people she loved to the institution of slavery ( meaning Zarina and Saffron). Pretty much all three of the people she has ever loved in the world (as far as we know at least). And she feels very guilty about it.
She could become even more cold-hearted in her war vs slavers. Or she might become not able to use the weapons she used before due to her guilt over Zarina. I expect there to be some internal troubles she will be facing. And I can't wait to read about her coping.
Though only for a novel or so...I still want Zarina back. :)
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Whose else call is it? So we can start to beg them. ;)
The editor has a big voice as to what get's the okay to be included. I get along wonderfully with Sutter, and I've broached the subject. We'll probably have a beer and discuss it at PaizoCon...
Suffice to say, there are many irons in the fire...
@John: don't forget her sister.
I did not...my next sentence was three people (meaning her sister, Saffron and Zarina). Just that she just lost two them at pretty much the same time.
Ah, misread that, my bad :3
That is okay I could have written it clearer.
I just want to say how much I loved Pirate's Promise. This is the first book I have read that when I read the last page I really wanted to go back and the re read it all (I probably would have if I was not catching up on my Pathfinder Tales reading which I let lagged way behind).
Mostly it was because of Vreva and Zarina both in they own right becoming some of my favorite characters from fiction ever. (definitely Top Ten...most likely Top Five). On top of that the relationship that developed between was just great.
I will probably re read it soon along with Pirate's Honor ( have to see if there was any clues I missed about Vreva anyway) when I do catch up with the PF Tales novels and Chris's other books (which are also very great).
not really on topic...but it will probably be awhile before this book is discussed by the book club here...and while I actually got a couple of friends interested in reading it it will take them a while to actually read them.
So did anybody else noticed the parallel between the Zarina's and Vreva's two dinners?
Speaking about at the first dinner Zarina teased about throwing Vreva on to the table and having her way with her...and at the second dinner during the arrest Zarina threw Vreva on the table and cut her hand to cast the Blood Biography spell.
I wonder if this was intentional. And if they was other parallels between the dinners.
You see it is impossible for me to have the happy moments taken away by what came after. Because at the end (of the book not the relationship...I still have hope) despite the hate and guilt they both chose love...which did bring tears of happiness to me. So while my heart sank as thing went bad...I realize the scene on the ship would not have as much impact as it would have without it. That is why I found the relationship so beautiful. Even the downhill parts.
At the end they chose right which is why I feel so passionate about it continuing. I know I am a hopeless romantic.
HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS THREAD BEFOREHAND?!?!
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
I am curious what are you thoughts on the matter...beside more Zarina....
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HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS THREAD BEFOREHAND?!?!
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
I am curious what are you thoughts on the matter...beside more Zarina....
Based on Vreva's comment of "she's never going to let me go" the idea of Zarina coming back as an undead to stalk her was brought up, much potential there, but I will flat out admit that I'd be happiest with, well, a happy ending. Not a bittersweet ending like Promise, but a full on unambiguous happy ending like in Honor.
And also one that leaves Okeno a smoldering crater.
HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS THREAD BEFOREHAND?!?!
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
I am curious what are you thoughts on the matter...beside more Zarina....
Based on Vreva's comment of "she's never going to let me go" the idea of Zarina coming back as an undead to stalk her was brought up, much potential there, but I will flat out admit that I'd be happiest with, well, a happy ending. Not a bittersweet ending like Promise, but a full on unambiguous happy ending like in Honor.
And also one that leaves Okeno a smoldering crater.
I don't know if you have tried other works by Chris Jackson but I highly recommend A Soul for Tsing...I think you'll love it.
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I don't know if you have tried other works by Chris Jackson but I highly recommend A Soul for Tsing...I think you'll love it.HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS THREAD BEFOREHAND?!?!
Jackson! You know my thoughts on the matter, more Zarina pleeeeeeeaaasssseeeeee!
I am curious what are you thoughts on the matter...beside more Zarina....
Based on Vreva's comment of "she's never going to let me go" the idea of Zarina coming back as an undead to stalk her was brought up, much potential there, but I will flat out admit that I'd be happiest with, well, a happy ending. Not a bittersweet ending like Promise, but a full on unambiguous happy ending like in Honor.
And also one that leaves Okeno a smoldering crater.
Dammit, that's two people that's recommended that book to me, gonna have to get it now.
Let me know what you think. I have became of fan of his works...I have also read Zellohar Book 1 of the Cornerstone Trilogy which I also would recommend and is eagerly awaiting the rest of the books to come in the mail.
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Character deaths are an overrated and easily abused plot element anyway.
THERE, I SAID IT! *Holds his flame shield* I REGRET NOTHING!
... You've been spending time around Liz haven't you?
?
The G'ninja.... You've been spending time around Liz haven't you??
Ah...no...not really.