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Three evil doers caught in the act of Rape and pillage in a Warzone.
Party happens upon them and immediately blind them all. Two bads slaughtered in round one. Third bad falls to his knees Blind,Weaponless,Pants around his ankles. Surrendering and begging for Mercy. Can the Paladin walk up and just kill him?Paladin says it is execution and is totally in his rights to do without issues to his alignment or Paladinness.
A paladin is an extension of the Law. What is the law in the area? What deity does the paladin serve? If the person was caught in the act and it's punishable by death then I see no reason why the paladin cannot carry the law out himself.
In all honesty, people try to cage the Paladin too much and make the class lame as heck by threatening to make them "fall" and it really makes people not want to play a paladin and to cause issues. If the paladin does something that's just obviously wrong, like kill peasants or something that is obviously against their deity's code of conduct or is against the law in the region (like break in and steal stuff from someone's house) then warn them before they act that they "know" that it's an evil act and that they will fall.
IMO, paladin is well within his rights, if the person has committed a heinous crime that is punishable by death, to carry out the execution of the law. If the paladin was running around killing people because they stole food or something and it wasn't a serious crime then the paladin would be in the wrong.
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A paladin is an extension of the Law. What is the law in the area? What deity does the paladin serve? If the person was caught in the act and it's punishable by death then I see no reason why the paladin cannot carry the law out himself.
A paladin isn't bound by local laws except insofar as they accept legitimate authority, they're bound by the code they personally agreed to uphold, not the code of someone else.
That said, Paladin is well within rights to carry out capital punishment, provided that there is some sensical procedure followed: Charges read (rape and attempted murder of a paladin), evidence laid out (I and all these witnesses saw you do it), sentence declared (death) criminal permitted last words, and then one swift quick blow to end them.
I think it really depends on the justice system of the area the crime was committed. If it was done in say, Lastwall then the dude should be taken to the courts and justice be done properly. Though hopefully the GM doesn't take his sweet time with the court scene and just says "Yeah he's convicted thanks to you being eyewitnesses and killed." If however the crime happened in say, Ustalav or a tribal country where there's no court system (or the court system is corrupt) then yeah just go ahead and kill the guy. It's not murder if it's not premeditated btw.
Also, if you guys are on a crunch time and need to get somewhere fast and have no time to take him back then you could potentially just kill him if the DM is ok with it.
If I was DMing I'd be cool with him executing people he saw commit heinous crimes wherever he was because I see Paladins as more "good" than "lawful." It's technically the Hellknight's job to be anal about how justice is served rather than having it be done expeditiously.
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Considering that it's bandits or equivalent committing warcrimes in a warzone?
Yeah, execution.
I'd expect the paladin to announce the execution (i.e., "This is why I'm going to kill you. May Pharasma judge your soul as you deserve.") But I wouldn't expect the paladin to stay his hand unless his code called for it.
(And since these guys actually got caught in the act, I don't think there's any code that would call for sparing them.)
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A paladin is an extension of the Law. What is the law in the area? What deity does the paladin serve? If the person was caught in the act and it's punishable by death then I see no reason why the paladin cannot carry the law out himself.A paladin isn't bound by local laws except insofar as they accept legitimate authority, they're bound by the code they personally agreed to uphold, not the code of someone else.
That said, Paladin is well within rights to carry out capital punishment, provided that there is some sensical procedure followed: Charges read (rape and attempted murder of a paladin), evidence laid out (I and all these witnesses saw you do it), sentence declared (death) criminal permitted last words, and then one swift quick blow to end them.
I disagree. Unless the Paladin has been specifically authorized by a "legitimate authority" to be judge, jury, and executioner, then he's out of line. In historical Europe, the right of "high justice" (e.g., capital punishment) was traditionally reserved to the sovereign alone, through his judges. Even high-ranking nobles weren't allowed to kill criminals.
The important thing isn't "some sensical procedure," but THE procedure, sensical or not. If the legitimate authority recognized by the paladin demands a trial by ordeal in front of a jury of the defendant's peers, the paladin is required to empanel such a jury.....
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In my game the paladin would have fallen for killing in anger. And not showing mercy. If he need to excuse his actions he is straying from the path.
But in some games paladins have different codes depending on there god. This is a DM Call and a paladin cannot lawyer his Way around that.
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Well, you said this is a warzone. So I suppose this falls under some form of martial law. And as representatives of law and justice with possible military authority, your paladin order may be technically qualify you to give trial under such circumstances.
Depending on the time period and culture, martial law can be rather Spartan and utilitarian. Basically- there is a war going on. You do not have time to properly imprison common criminals. Just take care of the problem.
Better to eliminate those that do damage to the common man than to merely let them go free.
Of course, this is merely one interpretation (one that seems like a very Torag thing to do). It depends on the god he worships and the paladin order he comes from, really. But given how wild some areas can be in a feudal style era, it might be the only practical solution. Admittedly, he is already blinded (which might make him permanently crippled, depending on what level magic he can get his hands on). So just leaving him to the mercies of the wild could be 'enough'. Maybe add a geas/quest to seek out and confess his crimes (or at least to not commit crimes again) might be a good measure as well.
Paladin says it is execution and is totally in his rights to do without issues to his alignment or Paladinness.
RAW? Depends on what the GM thinks about morality. (Is this good? Is this honorable?)
I wouldn't GM with the paladin code as written, so how I would rule it is pointless.
Code as written, you can never object as the player when your paladin falls because ANY action by RAW can make you fall. This is one of those cases where the GM could make you fall either way, or not fall at all.
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Yeah, once you've raped someone you don't get to beg for mercy. Not even Sarenrae would make this Paladin fall.
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Try to remember that not only is Judge Dredd a legitimate version of a paladin
Karl Urban Dredd moreso than Sylvester Stallone Dredd.
A paladin is an extension of the Law. What is the law in the area? What deity does the paladin serve? If the person was caught in the act and it's punishable by death then I see no reason why the paladin cannot carry the law out himself.A paladin isn't bound by local laws except insofar as they accept legitimate authority, they're bound by the code they personally agreed to uphold, not the code of someone else.
That said, Paladin is well within rights to carry out capital punishment, provided that there is some sensical procedure followed: Charges read (rape and attempted murder of a paladin), evidence laid out (I and all these witnesses saw you do it), sentence declared (death) criminal permitted last words, and then one swift quick blow to end them.
I disagree. Unless the Paladin has been specifically authorized by a "legitimate authority" to be judge, jury, and executioner, then he's out of line. In historical Europe, the right of "high justice" (e.g., capital punishment) was traditionally reserved to the sovereign alone, through his judges. Even high-ranking nobles weren't allowed to kill criminals.
The important thing isn't "some sensical procedure," but THE procedure, sensical or not. If the legitimate authority recognized by the paladin demands a trial by ordeal in front of a jury of the defendant's peers, the paladin is required to empanel such a jury.....
You're kind of going in circles, as I said in my post which authority the Paladin ultimately adheres to, the one they swore an oath to (Abadar, Sarenrae, Torag, Iomedae, Shelyn, or other) barring the rather cumbersome (and in my opinion laughable) "sworn to the concepts of lawfulness and goodness" oaths, I don't think any of the main paladin deities would be having much of an issue with carry out the field execution of a prisoner convicted of rape during wartime, with several viable witnesses (the paladin's party).
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Lets just ask the dude who literally wrote the Paladin:
"Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies... An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct."
-Gary Gygax
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From your description, it sounds like the party burst in on these guys in the act, in a hostile environment where the parry couldn't be sure of its own safety even without prisoners. It seems to me that the paladin is justified, both because they caught the guys in the act and because there's no guarantee that he/she will be able to ensure the group's safety long enough to capture the evildoer and get him out of there.
That being said, the answer is obvious. The paladin falls.
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I suppose the question is less whether this is good or evil (some slight debate on whether executing a captured, unresisting criminal guilty of heinous crimes, which would not be unusual; but no one questions killing the other two in the heat of battle), but whether this is lawful or chaotic.
If there is an authority that you can go to and drop this guy off at (in a city or a nearby military outpost), then do so and leave him to reap what he sowed. If you are in the wilderness or a deserted battlefield... yeah, it is up to you, since there is no authority.
And really, the main reason to hand him off is probably to make an example of him with a public execution. Deterring future incidents and all that.
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Ultimately this will depend on the paladin, their deity, and their personal code.
A paladin is not required to be obey all laws.
If it is unreasonable to have taken the person to a more legitimate source of authority, then summary execution is not unreasonable.
At the very least, before making a paladin fall you should tell him if something would be against his code or the tenets of his deity. Of course, you should have also outlined this sort of thing with the player before play ever began.
See this article on Zenith Games about how to handle paladin situations.
If you don't warn him first about his actions, he shouldn't fall.
If there wasn't an obviously better alternative, he shouldn't fall.
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Bandit is a synonym for "outlaw". Someone who was outlawed historically fell outside the protection of the law. They could be and were killed on sight if recognized or encountered on the road.
It is safe to assume someone caught raping and murdering in a warzone is considered a bandit.
The Laws of Gods..and Men (or whatever race) are different.
while his god may endorse what he has done and no harm no fall..
The local lords..government may not...just having a class and levels does not a title make.
Think of it in our world as vigilante justice..may go over well..may not.
But could make for some interesting RP when the actual law enforcement types get wind of these happenings ( if they do that is)..could want to arrest the Paladin..or give him a star. LOL
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Killing someone who tried to fight you after they've surrendered is not evil, it's just not good.
Paladins are allowed to perform neutral actions, even if a good action is available.
His code is this:
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
(I kept the associates bit out)
Warzones by their nature, are places of conflicted authority, so I would excuse the paladin, as the zone is of 'contested authority' rather then 'legitimate authority'. Now, if his rightful superior said: "Take anyone you find alive" then he'd be disobeying.
Acting with honor does not seem to come into play here; Mercy and Honor do not automatically correlate. In this case, from the examples above in the code itself, it means being honest and forthright, rather then kind.
Help those in Need: The paladin was doing just that, so no need to think on this segment further
Punish those who harm or threaten innocents. NOW we come to contestable claims. Is it punishment to have the criminals tried, and sentenced? Yes. Is it punishment to kill them for their evil acts? Yes. So, either action fulfills the paladin code's demand for punishment.
Overall, I'd say the paladin is allowed to execute them on the spot. It's not 'Good', which a paladin SHOULD strive to always be when possible, but they are not required to be perfect, and thus be paralyzed by circumstance.
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In my game the paladin would have fallen for killing in anger. And not showing mercy. If he need to excuse his actions he is straying from the path.
But in some games paladins have different codes depending on there god. This is a DM Call and a paladin cannot lawyer his Way around that.
Considering the 3.5 expressed Paladin code explicitly mentioned fighting evil without mercy, I see no problems with it.
Even Optimus Prime didn't fall for Megatron's "Please have mercy!" bit.
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I wouldn't punish the player over this, just make a note and in the future throw in a few similar situations, particularly ones that involve concepts such as mercy and compassion to see where, if anywhere, the paladin begins to draw such lines. Throw him into situations where the law of the land is clear to see if he believes his divine law is above it, whether he grants mercy for 'lesser crimes', etc
Of course the nefarious goal would be to get him to defend increasingly difficult actions, maybe have his superiors question the paladin's integrity while having other npcs of questionable morality reward him for his swift and impeccable judgments.
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Or you know, you could just let them play their character without automatically making the entire game about trying to make them fall.
All the "Oh, someone rolled a Paladin, I have to devote the entire game to torturing them!" thing is not only old, it really makes the GM look like an ass.
Unless the Paladin does something blatantly out of line, don't worry about it.
In my answer it would be same regardless of class...but the thread was mainly about paladins and the cause effect etc.
So the leave the poor paladin alone is kinda not necessary...besides some of the fun in RP game is moral quandaries and choices..Pallies just have more at stake.
I give all my players tough choices and in world ramifications of those choices.
Not true. Every Cleric in the game has the same "Oh, is my god going to get mad at me and revoke my spells?" problem, but no one ever tries to intentionally set the cleric up to tick their God off.
I have yet ... YET to see a thread like this where it wasn't specifically about Paladins... you know because after all they are the only class with a big red DESTRUCT button right in the rules. And we all know about Big Red Buttons.In my answer it would be same regardless of class...but the thread was mainly about paladins and the cause effect etc.
The forums have alignment threads all the time, this one was recent and had nothing to do with paladins.
paladins come up often because they are a popular class choice with a restrictive alignment and severe penalties for not towing the line. Everyone has horror stories of being **** over by alignment and nefarious DMs, or by PCs who try to rules lawyer away their actions as neutral or even good, for better (or often worse) it's part of the game.
If someone wanted to play judge Dredd the paladin that seems perfectly fine, and if I were running I would see where (if anywhere) the player wanted to go with his character arc.
The Laws of Gods..and Men (or whatever race) are different.
while his god may endorse what he has done and no harm no fall..
The local lords..government may not...just having a class and levels does not a title make.
Think of it in our world as vigilante justice..may go over well..may not.
But could make for some interesting RP when the actual law enforcement types get wind of these happenings ( if they do that is)..could want to arrest the Paladin..or give him a star. LOL
Well, except for a noble scion. I am pretty sure that carries a title. Still, it might not be a title that has any weight in the current area.
Another interesting RP situation would be different authorities that want to do both to the paladin. A good bit of factional conflict over how to enact the laws- leave it to the individual's hands, and possibly encourage blood feuds between clans, or leave it solely to a weakly centralized government, which would mean a slow response and limited range of influence.
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Not true. Every Cleric in the game has the same "Oh, is my god going to get mad at me and revoke my spells?" problem, but no one ever tries to intentionally set the cleric up to tick their God off.
Clerics have one big, HUGE, important difference in their Code of Conduct.
They must GRIEVOUSLY violate their CoC to lose their powers, while a Paladin must merely violate it, and their restrictions are much looser in general (they don't have a big list of "Things not to do ever" like the Paladin does).
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What does our good friend Torag say regarding paladins in this situation?
Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will
not allow their surrender, except to extract information.
I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet
even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a
way that brings honor to Torag.
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There's enough room and range amongst paladins for both mercy and summary execution to be acceptable here.
The circumstances and the way the paladin goes about doing what they choose to do is what will make or break the situation. And it's going to take some unusual circumstances to protect Captain Atrocity's life. And as long as the paladin doesn't try to Jack Bauer/90's Anti-hero the situation, execution is understandable. If it's in anger, mark it down, but it should take more than that alone to drop them.
Hell, even my redemption-centric paladin who hates killing, period, would be hard pressed to show mercy. He'd probably still slap a harsh mark of justice on him and leave him to the mercy of the local populace though, unless he knew for certain that it would mean a slow torturous fate for the bandit, in which case a swift execution is being merciful.
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A paladin is an extension of the Law. What is the law in the area? What deity does the paladin serve? If the person was caught in the act and it's punishable by death then I see no reason why the paladin cannot carry the law out himself.A paladin isn't bound by local laws except insofar as they accept legitimate authority, they're bound by the code they personally agreed to uphold, not the code of someone else.
That said, Paladin is well within rights to carry out capital punishment, provided that there is some sensical procedure followed: Charges read (rape and attempted murder of a paladin), evidence laid out (I and all these witnesses saw you do it), sentence declared (death) criminal permitted last words, and then one swift quick blow to end them.
Are you implying a Good character would recognize someone who uses capital punishment as a legitimate authority!?
[/can of worms]
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Yes.
That's going in the bookmarks for when people confuse Good with good.
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What does our good friend Torag say regarding paladins in this situation?
HAMMER TIME!Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will
not allow their surrender, except to extract information.
I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet
even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a
way that brings honor to Torag.
Right in the sensitive bits!
He doesn't have to kill him per say, what if he just made him no longer a threat? By disarming the bandit, literally removing his arms. That could be considered merciful (he spared the life), but seems a lot more evil.
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A paladin is an extension of the Law. What is the law in the area? What deity does the paladin serve? If the person was caught in the act and it's punishable by death then I see no reason why the paladin cannot carry the law out himself.A paladin isn't bound by local laws except insofar as they accept legitimate authority, they're bound by the code they personally agreed to uphold, not the code of someone else.
That said, Paladin is well within rights to carry out capital punishment, provided that there is some sensical procedure followed: Charges read (rape and attempted murder of a paladin), evidence laid out (I and all these witnesses saw you do it), sentence declared (death) criminal permitted last words, and then one swift quick blow to end them.
Are you implying a Good character would recognize someone who uses capital punishment as a legitimate authority!?
[/can of worms]
Yes. Most nations especially in fantasy settings have death penalties.
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Yes. The Paladin falls. No one ever said being good was easy, or fun. Sometimes being good means letting a murderer/rapist live. Sometimes it even means helping them overcome the urge to do evil. That's what good is. Murdering someone due to their actions is still murder. It's just socially acceptable.
Also, Gygax kinda got the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" thing wrong. Not bashing him, a lot of us do, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.
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In my game the paladin would not fall because this isn't an edition of the game wherein paladins need that caveat to cover being a hybrid class that is considered by its developers superior to the other two classes. Because its since evolved to its own class that is considered quite balanced with or without the alignment restriction.
Of course it would depend on my player. If he wanted to play a paladin of a deity with an extremely strict moral code that would not allow such an action he would fall. But I give my paladins the ability to ask if the act has a likelihood of causing them to fall unless, again, they like the morality game and the chance of becoming a giant burden to the entire party by becoming a fighter without feats or having to spend thousands of gold on an atonement.
So it depends. It depends on the player playing the paladin. It depends on the campaign setting. It depends on the circumstances of the roleplaying.
It could even theoretically happen that a paladin could do something worthy of falling that has nothing to do with action, but rather implicit intent and lack of desire to further his or her own deity's agenda, even if he was following the codes of the deity in question. It would depend on the judgement of the outsider.
Making a paladin fall should be done from the perspective of the god. You, the GM, are playing the deity. Looking at your paladin.
That being said "warning" a paladin they are about to fall has had incredibly good roleplaying in the past: especially when sudden visions that daze the paladin for a round are involved.
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What does our good friend Torag say regarding paladins in this situation?
HAMMER TIME!Against my people's enemies I will show no mercy. I will
not allow their surrender, except to extract information.
I will defeat them, and I will scatter their families. Yet
even in the struggle against our enemies, I will act in a
way that brings honor to Torag.Right in the sensitive bits!
He doesn't have to kill him per say, what if he just made him no longer a threat? By disarming the bandit, literally removing his arms. That could be considered merciful (he spared the life), but seems a lot more evil.
Now if a paladin did that, I'd likely have to have the paladin fall... And have the bandit come back with sword arms, wreathed in unholy flame, and screaming for Zon-Kuthon to guide him.
EDIT: And now I know what to make for my next custom enemy.
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Also, Gygax kinda got the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" thing wrong. Not bashing him, a lot of us do, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.
According to Hammurabi's Code, the price putting an eye out depended on the source of the eye:
1) Citizens - the offender's eye2) Freed Slaves - 1.25 lbs of silver (52.5 Golarion GP)
3) Slaves - half of the slaves value (before the eye was removed)
Hammurabi's code requires that a rapist be put to death.
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And have the bandit come back with sword arms, wreathed in unholy flame, and screaming for Zon-Kuthon to guide him.
EDIT: And now I know what to make for my next custom enemy.
How does he take care of his umm.... "sanitation needs"?
I guess he could take the leadership feat and gain a cohort, though that better be some charisma score.|
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And have the bandit come back with sword arms, wreathed in unholy flame, and screaming for Zon-Kuthon to guide him.
EDIT: And now I know what to make for my next custom enemy.
How does he take care of his umm.... "sanitation needs"?
I guess he could take the leadership feat and gain a cohort, though that better be some charisma score.
He just makes intimidate checks at whoever is closest.
Yes. The Paladin falls. No one ever said being good was easy, or fun. Sometimes being good means letting a murderer/rapist live. Sometimes it even means helping them overcome the urge to do evil. That's what good is. Murdering someone due to their actions is still murder. It's just socially acceptable.
Also, Gygax kinda got the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" thing wrong. Not bashing him, a lot of us do, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.
No. Rape is one of those sins you commit that pushes you past the moral event horizon. You receive no mercy for it. At the very least, the Paladin should be expected to chop the guy's balls off if for some reason he can't kill him.
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Yes. The Paladin falls. No one ever said being good was easy, or fun. Sometimes being good means letting a murderer/rapist live. Sometimes it even means helping them overcome the urge to do evil. That's what good is. Murdering someone due to their actions is still murder. It's just socially acceptable.
Also, Gygax kinda got the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" thing wrong. Not bashing him, a lot of us do, but it doesn't mean what you think it means.
Paladins are expected to kill people in the game. No, he does not fall. If he falls for that then Paladins should be falling for a lot of other kills they make. Also letting certain people live can cause more harm, and it is a paladin's duty to protect, more than it is to give every "sorry that I am caught" guy a 2nd chance.
@ the OP: As you can see different GM's run paladins differently, and players are not mind readers. So even if you think he should fall give the player a pass then explain what you expect at YOUR table. If he no longer wishes to play a paladin allow him to change his class, just to be fair.