Hi all,
I am having an issue lately in my gaming group playing a Battle Herald. I don’t feel the character is optimized in that department for level 6 but he have spirited charge, so it’s still doing 3d8 + 54 damage ( 3 times 1d8 +18 ) in damage once power attack and other base dmg is figured in.
In short, I get lot of aggro due to my spirited charge damage in what is really your basic 4 Arcane Duelist / 1 Emissary build / 1 vanilla Battle Herald build. But I mean, if I was a pure cavalier with order of the sword, I’d get like 3d8+120 without even trying. I am a bit at a loss here as I even went out of my way providing mainly buffs, heal command and finale spells. I did not take a small race either, it’s really a human with combat horse. I did take boon companion and bodyguard archetype while also raising the horse int to 3+.
Does this look like an overpowered character? I am still trying to wrap my mind around the reasons of such aggro but it poses problem as lately ridiculous situations, purposely engineered to prevent me from charging or getting the mount in dungeons, have happened a lot. I responded by switching my mount to a new one ( that I paid for ) with Dragon Style feat, sacrificing the extra AC the mount gave with bodyguard to counter rough terrain and allies who for some were purposely getting in the way. I even spent all my remaining gold in an hosteling fullplate ( My bard spells are all immediate or verbal, no somatic ).
So ya, last sessions were tense in what is normally a long running group. I rationalize that maybe this is due to having recently started a new campaign with most of pathfinder content, sinc we used only the core books before. Still, spirited charge is core. Maybe it’s because the horse is not easy to kill anymore? Lot of the other characters are dex based or casters or do not have their second BaB attack yet. Maybe they can’t see the long progression curve? Or maybe it’s all the swift/immediate and move actions at my disposal that makes the character versatile action economy wise? There is also the mount, with inspire courage, it does hit like a truck at this level.
From my perspective, most of their characters should leave mine in the dust by lvl 9 in their specialized areas but they don’t see it that way. Really, my character is a glorified bard at the end of the day with 18 str and 16 cha. The only bright side and why we are kind of at a status quo is because of Inspire courage and other spells/buffs the character gives to everyone on top of it all. Anyone got a solution for me? I could offer to change the cavalier archetype and give up all 3 spirited charge feats line but that’s not too honest since I can see spirited charge losing steam pretty soon even if they don’t see it.
Thanks for any advice.
Talk to your group. Ask them why they don't like your character and keep trying to get in the way.
At early levels bards can cast as well as any class. They can heal as well as any, control/field control better than most, buff and debuff better than most, and even direct damage... though not quite as well.
Bards outskill rogues, or any other skill class.
My guess, you're probably the primary face of the party, too.
Now, you're outdamaging the melees! ... maybe not later, but now.
In short, you've got a very, very good/versatile build that is outshining your fellows in every phase of the game. You may be right, that in the mid-levels they'll start surpassing you in combat. But, right now, they are probably feeling a bit like your sidekicks.
Not an easy problem to deal with. Frankly, your best option might be just to dial things back a bit. Give someone else a chance to shine in some encounters, and see if their attitude towards your character doesn't improve a bit.
It's probably that you have un-optimized teammates. And your GM doesn't make you get off your horse ever. This makes your little build seem more awesome than it really is.
Don't charge all the time. Use a longsword sometimes when you do. No reason to overkill.
The good thing about versatility (and why fighters are boring) is that you can scale your response up and down, so you're only ever as effective as neccesary, no more, no less.
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As a human Order of the Sword cavalier on a horse in PFS, your damage looks high for L6 considering your classes. You have a powerful combat style that didn't need additional offensive optimization. (Among other things, refrain from two-handing the lance; I believe this means you still get 1.5*PA, but only 1*Str, although FAQs are inconsistent here.)
I'd talk with the GM and say you'll tone down the damage a bit (or at least stop optimizing it further) and ask him to let you shine now and then (understanding it can't be all the time).
A "typical" L6 Order of the Sword Cavalier might have damage of +5 Str, +6 Challenge (2/day), +6 PA, +1 lance for 3d8+54 per charge. That's exactly what you have. Your estimate of 3d8+120 "without even trying" sounds high to me.
Understand that optimization is a treadmill. If you increase your damage output, the GM will pick higher-CR monsters, who can not only survive a charge, but one-shot you and your allies in return.
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I did take boon companion and bodyguard archetype while also raising the horse int to 3+.
Does this look like an overpowered character? I am still trying to wrap my mind around the reasons of such aggro but it poses problem as lately ridiculous situations, purposely engineered to prevent me from charging or getting the mount in dungeons, have happened a lot. I responded by switching my mount to a new one ( that I paid for ) with Dragon Style feat, sacrificing the extra AC the mount gave with bodyguard to counter rough terrain and allies who for some were purposely getting in the way. I even spent all my remaining gold in an hosteling fullplate ( My bard spells are all immediate or verbal, no somatic ).
This statement might hold a clue as to what your problem might be.
The GM offers "ridiculous" situations to prevent your mount getting in dungeons, and other players were "purposefully" blocking your charge lane. Your response was to swap out the mount that had a buffing/defending archetype with one that could overcome the blocks that the rest of the group were putting in your way.
It seems like you're missing some communication clues from your group. I'd just sit down and talk to them about the issue. Try to come up with tactics that work with all the characters in the group: it might be that you're accidently invalidating the other party members' tactics with yours.
Having been at tables (both sides of the screen) with a lot of mounted characters and pouncing eidelons, I often found that the constant refrain of "Don't block my charge lane" and "Hey, you got in my way" comes across as really, really selfish. It even affects your marching order, scouting, etc. (For example, my Stealth- and Perception- optimized archer with 90 ft of Darkvision was more than once told not to go out in front of the party so someone's pet always had a charge lane. But I built a scout, so going in front is what that character does...)
I've seen games where the charging character:
- complains about the rogue being in his way without noticing that the rogue was just moving into a flanking position (or worse, telling the rogue that it's more important for his mount to have a charge lane than it is for the rogue to get into flank)
- always blocks the shot of the ranged character
- runs past the two reach weapon wielders who had readied actions when the bad guys came to them
- leaves the party before the buff caster gets Prayer/Haste/Bless/whatever off--that's even better when the charger complains that the buff caster isn't doing a good job)
- charges in before the offensive gets off the massive burst spell--and complains about being caught in the fireball blast or the entangle
On the flip side, I've see a Mammoth Rider cavalier on a huge wooly rhino be an awesome team player.
- Ride-By Attack lets him charge past the bad guy and provide a flank for the rest of the party
- Wheeling Charge and Charge Through lets him pick a charge lane in almost any battle configuration, so he doesn't have to order his allies out of his way
- Greater Overrun gives his allies an Attack of Opportunity one the foe he's blowing past to get to his charge target
- He also got Indomitable Mount so that the huge trampling monstrosity is less likely to kill the rest of the party (On a good run, it can throw out 150 damage--you do not want that thing charmed!)
- He put a palinquin on its back so up to 5 other characters can ride with him. The full-plated Hellknight rides up the foe and then dismounts into melee, so the 20 foot move speed doesn't slow him down. The team cleric stays on the rhino most of the time, completely protected from the rest of battle. (He even specifically took a mount feat to let the cleric cast on the rhino's back without making concentration checks.)
And that Mammoth Rider is built off of the Order of the Cockatrice, the single most selfish cavalier build there is.
So it can be done. You just have to communicate with the rest of the party and identify what the problems really are.
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Having been at tables (both sides of the screen) with a lot of mounted characters and pouncing eidelons, I often found that the constant refrain of "Don't block my charge lane" and "Hey, you got in my way" comes across as really, really selfish. It even affects your marching order, scouting, etc. (For example, my Stealth- and Perception- optimized archer with 90 ft of Darkvision was more than once told not to go out in front of the party so someone's pet always had a charge lane. But I built a scout, so going in front is what that character does...)
Honestly? Unless it is PFS, just throw out the rule about allies blocking a charge. It is absolutely stupid and just causes massive amounts of unneeded grief between the party.
Played a Cavalier before w/ Battle Herald levels. My first few (read like 6 or 7) levels I had no character options that could mitigate the need for clear charging lanes. Which by the way, the Cavalier needs in order to compete with OP archers or full attacking fighters. It's a very difficult class to play, and you absolutely need your team to cooperate with you more than any other class.
There is definitely a difference between asking for a clear path to charge and trying to dictate party position and marching order though.
When your allies were blocking your charge, were they asking for some other kind of help you weren't providing? Like, maybe the ranger or cleric wants you to cast haste on them, letting them do the damage, rather than you charging up and doing the damage yourself.
Maybe the GM is throwing lots of high offense, low hit point enemies at the group, and they are worried that your aggressive approach is going to cause the GM to escalate.
Do you complain about your charge line? Don't. Just delay your action, or spend the first round doing something else while you maneuver.
By the way, as to the powerlevel of your character. An Order of the Sword would probably NOT be doing +120 damage, even my own Cavalier had trouble hitting those numbers several levels down the line. However, I tend to find Cavaliers have a very linear power curve. That is, they receive most of their damage potential in the first few levels (the time it takes to get spirited charge and power attack) and then quickly levels off, while iterative based classes begin outpacing it.
Frankly, your party probably THINKS your Cavalier is more OP than it is because most of your damage potential is frontloaded. You are right at the point where they should be swinging ahead of you, in a few more levels, they should be doing the same damage or more than you are. Especially since going Bard->Battle Herald is far less effective than going Cavalier->Battle Herald.
Thanks for the comments,
We did have a chat but they are not honest about it and what they do not like about my PC. Some good suggestions but when I said I took an Hosteling armor to bring my companion in dungeons and Dragon Style for the mount, it was really me burning mount feats to not have to deal with arguing all the time and forcing the GM to play nice ( rough terrain everywhere and tight corridors everywhere is not fun for anyone ). I also do not feel the build is especially amazing, on the contrary, it’s really vanilla.
I understand however what was meant from comments but the character is really about buffing the team first. Going Battle Herald was really to expand the inspire courage range to 60 feets and get the none shall fall command for healing. Saving finale to help party members rerolls failed saves, Timely and gallant inspiration to help them when needed. I really play as a team member but it still allows me to charge most of the time.
The Crusader mentioned that they might feel outshined as in “right now” despite later levels will proves this wrong. This is interesting and might be the real core of the matter. The character as mentioned is very versatile and have an answer to everything. Also mentioned, the Bard is the party face and have many other skills. They might indeed feel like sidekicks now I think of it, even if I don’t think they are.
I’ll try to lay low next game but it really feels like shooting myself in the foot on the long run as they will not hold back once their characters abilities synergizes and kick in. I might as well reroll a character at this point, too many feats invested in being mounted to not use it. Makes me a bit sad, I love that character.
P.S: For my Order of sword cavalier example, it starts at lvl 8: Add mount strength, Pc strength, power attack, dmg from challenge, a +2 lance and multiply the whole thing by 3 on the spirited charge. Not too hard to pull off.
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We did have a chat but they are not honest about it...
I think you're off the mark. They almost certainly are being honest, but perhaps not as forthright and fulsome as you may want.
People play this game to be "heroes". There is a cooperative aspect to it, but each player wants to shine and wants to stand on his own. They are never going to chastise you for taking/using a spell like Saving Finale or Timely Inspiration. But, once again, just like in melee, it's an example of how you are swooping in and outshining them! At this point, they are not even allowed to stand out when they fail!
Keep in mind that all of this is not being fairly applied. It's the totality of it all that is angering them, so everything has become an offense. If you weren't outshining them in combat, they would be delighted for you to buff and saving finale and crowd control and face, etc. However, now you've breached that threshold. Any action you take is piling it on further.
Don't roll up another character. That's a major slap to your friends' faces. It's almost you conceding, "I made this guy too good for you to game with, so here's something a little more fisher price for you guys..."
Just dial it back. Maybe for several encounters. Maybe for several sessions. On your turn, double move to give someone flanking. Use a combat maneuver like trip, disarm, bull rush, or overrun. Toss out an aid another, or cast a heal spell. Don't immediately take over social situations. Don't generally take the lead in everything. Is that fair to you? No, probably not. But, in the long term, your friends will be much happier, you'll get to keep your character, you'll get to (eventually) play him the way you intended.
Thanks for the comments,
We did have a chat but they are not honest about it and what they do not like about my PC. Some good suggestions but when I said I took an Hosteling armor to bring my companion in dungeons and Dragon Style for the mount, it was really me burning mount feats to not have to deal with arguing all the time and forcing the GM to play nice ( rough terrain everywhere and tight corridors everywhere is not fun for anyone ). I also do not feel the build is especially amazing, on the contrary, it’s really vanilla.
I understand however what was meant from comments but the character is really about buffing the team first. Going Battle Herald was really to expand the inspire courage range to 60 feets and get the none shall fall command for healing. Saving finale to help party members rerolls failed saves, Timely and gallant inspiration to help them when needed. I really play as a team member but it still allows me to charge most of the time.
The Crusader mentioned that they might feel outshined as in “right now” despite later levels will proves this wrong. This is interesting and might be the real core of the matter. The character as mentioned is very versatile and have an answer to everything. Also mentioned, the Bard is the party face and have many other skills. They might indeed feel like sidekicks now I think of it, even if I don’t think they are.
I’ll try to lay low next game but it really feels like shooting myself in the foot on the long run as they will not hold back once their characters abilities synergizes and kick in. I might as well reroll a character at this point, too many feats invested in being mounted to not use it. Makes me a bit sad, I love that character.
P.S: For my Order of sword cavalier example, it starts at lvl 8: Add mount strength, Pc strength, power attack, dmg from challenge, a +2 lance and multiply the whole thing by 3 on the spirited charge. Not too hard to pull off.
Some things you might consider:
You've made some comments like "forcing the GM to play nice"--I don't know if you mean that literally or are just being facetious, but that might be something to look into. If your GM honestly feels that you (or your character) are "forcing" him into things, he could take that out on the rest of the party. (For example, if the narrow dungeon corridors and difficult terrain were going to be there no matter what character you played, accusing the GM of purposefully putting in roadblocks to stop your cavalier is kind of unfair. Those things do happen in adventures, and it might not be about you at all.)Pay attention to what's going on when you feel the party members start to get annoyed. Try to identify exactly what the triggering behavior is, and then try to avoid that particular behavior to see if that helps.
Listen to your party's table talk during play. (Don't respond for a while--just listen.) A lot of times, people will make joking comments that reveal what's really bothering them.
Consider swapping your Emissary archetype for one that keeps the Tactician feature. Passing out teamwork feats is a great way to get the party on your side: they get to shine because of your class ability. (Escape Route, Shake It Off, and Outflank are my favorites, depending on your party's general combat configuration.)
Teamwork feats are crappy though. I can totally see why he changed them out.
Gwen, when I say GM, it`s one of us players DMing 3-4 game sessions then switching to next. I should have mentionned it, would have put some perspective. The events I am reffering to were really unambiguously obvious and not a false perception from my side.
Crusader really have the issue spot on but you also have some good suggestions to solve the issue. I`m ready to dial back but doubt this is fair to me. I also do not see that character without his lance, banner and mount. Rerolling might hurt their feelings a bit but with all the arguing lately, I`ve been a bit rattled.
I`ll see first if swapping archetypes, mounted feats and weapons is doable but I`m affraid it`s heading to reroll. I`ll still keep an eye on theses point in the future, hopefully won`t be a one way street with the rest of the group. Anyways, I guess the topic is kind of adressed now, thank you all again for the advices.