A question on formatting for something different...


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Hi contestants

I thought I would ask my fellow superstar contestants and Paizo at the same time.

Posit: You are designing an archetype that works across MULTIPLE classes... and you want to stay as true to Paizo formats as possible...

When describing the abilities of the class, how should you format it...

Normally it's of the form...

Ability Name (Ex/Su/Sp): At nth level, crunchy description. This ability replaces class ability name.

So, should I format it like this, or in some other way?...

Ability Name (Ex/Su/Sp): crunchy description.
A cleric gains this ability at 1st level, replacing cleric ability
An oracle gains this ability at 2nd level, replacing oracle ability
etc.

What about other sections of an archetype, e.g. replacing the normal skills?

I would like to write this design in a way that people think is a good way to do this, and I cant find any archetype that crosses multiple classes, so I am kind of trying something weird and wonderful.

What do my superstar comrades in arms (and Paizo) suggest?

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I think the big problem here Anthony is the lack of consistent abilities at the same levels across multiple classes. You obviously are aware of this, but it produces the problem of any class using the archetype having varying power tiers at different character levels.

As such, I might suggest giving the ability at the highest level of replacement for all classes using the archetype and removing abilities at whichever level they would normally gain the replaced ability. Any archetype of this sort should have an ability right at first level that scales with character level to make up for power discrepancies while waiting for the replaced power to be granted. This scaled ability would obviously replace a 1st level ability in every applicable class.

As for format I would use a Replace entry, like so:

Ability Name (Ex/Su/Sp): At [nth] level, crunchy description.
Replaces: Class — ability replaced; 2nd Class — ability replaced; etc.

For skills, I would simply replace all skills with a new skill set. Easy, quick, and would help keep a uniform feel to the archetype across classes.

Just a few thoughts. :)

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I did wonder about allowing the classes to "get" the ability at the same time as the ability that is replaced.

In the latter game levels the gap between classes can be as much as four levels, which shies me away from a set level across the board for game balance reasons.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

Although I've no reason to know better than anyone else, my instinct is to stick as closely as possible to Paizo's existing format, and consistency in rules layout is important so people always know to find things in the same place.

So.

The existing archetypes usually say, for example, "At level X, the [archetype] gains this ability. It does this. This ability replaces [other class ability]."

I would try to stick to that as much as possible.

If you are replacing single feature that several classes have and gain at the same level--let's say a druid or ranger's wild empathy--you can just leave it as "this ability replaces wild empathy."

If a class gained the ability a different LEVEL than another, and thus the archetype ability was gained at the different level, I would note the level difference at the start of the description as always, and then leave the "replaces" language the same.

For example, where the archetype is called "Weirdo" (and there is a non-existent mechanic called befuddling):

Quirkiness (Ex): A 1st level weirdo rogue or a 3rd level weirdo urban ranger adds 1/2 her level to Sense Motive checks and to Bluff checks when trying to befuddle her opponents. This ability replaces trapfinding.

If you are INSTEAD replacing two different class features but at the same level, I would do it thusly (this time we're using a cleric and oracle and our archetype is called the googly guru):

Holy Moly: At 2nd level, a googly guru adds holy moly to her spell list. This replaces a 1st level domain spell or mystery spell gained at 2nd level.

(ETA: Fixed to actually match how domain spells work. Come to think of it, the above could actually lose the "at 2nd level" as the when it replaces makes it clear when it should come in, and so the cleric and oracle would actually gain it at different times, and that would probably work okay. Generally, my concern below remains.)

I recognize all of the above language could be finessed a bit, but that's the general idea. If it was gained at differing levels AND replaced differing abilities, your language, yes, could get muddy if you're not careful, but at that point I'd be concerned more about the ability itself. It would be very hard to make such an ability that would be a balanced replacement especially if it replaces disparate abilities AND kicks in at different levels. Possible, yes, but your design concerns there are bigger than formatting.

ETA: The other subtle formatting challenge you hit is what to do about pronouns. You are supposed to use male or female pronouns for class mechanics based on the iconic for the class--but if you're using multiple classes, you may use classes with differently gendered iconics behind them. For the quirkiness ability above, I picked "her" since the rogue (Merisiel) would gain the ability first.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

If you want to see how Paizo does it, check out the seeker archetype. Archetypes, I meän. :p Different class, different archetype.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka Cyrad

Like Mikko says, Paizo creates two archetypes with the same name for different classes.

If you wanted to save space, you could have one archetype refer to the other. For example, you could define all the abilities under the Cleric of Awesome archetype. Then for each ability under the Oracle of Awesome archetype, say "Moment of Awesome (Ex): At 1st level, an oracle of awesome gains the moment of awesome ability, as the cleric of awesome archetype ability with the same name. This replaces the revelation gained at 1st level."

I always have a lot of game design and formatting questions myself, but don't always know who to turn to.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

Where is the non-oracle seeker? I found the PFS Field Guide one, but not another.

If you were to publish that in one book, that'd been an awful lot of excess word count. But if that's the way they do it, that's good to know.

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I WAS WRONG! :-D Just checked the actual guide, not the d20pfsrd version... (d20pfsrd, you did it again...) The seeker archetype is actually not two separate archetypes. Ditto for the scroll scholar. For some reason, d20prsrd editors have decided to separate the archetypes. Nice.

This is how the abilities are worded: "For an oracle, this ability replaces [ability name]. For a sorcerer, this ability replaces [ability name]."

EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT: Eh, I'll stop editing this post now. :-P

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PFS Primer might also have a dual class archetype, but I may be confusing it with the Field Guide Mikko referenced.

These are the only ones I've seen though, & i think it is specific to PFS. You can look at the animal shamans (druid) in the APG & UM. I think they get close. 'Tis similar to RP's suggestion.

:)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka Cyrad

Oh, I remembered Sean K. Reynolds saying Paizo didn't make archetypes like that. In one of his Designer Talk videos about prestige classes, he mentioned the archetype system could fill the niche prestige classes do by introducing archetypes that work for multiple classes, but that would be something likely not seen in Paizo work.

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Garrick Williams wrote:
Oh, I remembered Sean K. Reynolds saying Paizo didn't make archetypes like that. In one of his Designer Talk videos about prestige classes, he mentioned the archetype system could fill the niche prestige classes do by introducing archetypes that work for multiple classes, but that would be something likely not seen in Paizo work.

Heh, heh, its not for Paizo, I was trying to work out a way of doing it but respecting the general layout as much as possible. I do like breaking things i guess >.<

Thanks for the pointers for samples everyone, i think I have a plan of action now.

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