Clerics of Razmir: Why Not?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


If Clerics can draw divine power from ideals and philosophies, cutting out the deities in that regards, why are there no divine casters of Razmir? It's a question that I once tried to answer so that it made sense in context with Pre-existing rules and Golarion's setting, but I can't see why there is a prohibition on Clerics of Razmir. I rather like the cult and would like to use them more, but this one question has kept me from doing so.


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Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
If Clerics can draw divine power from ideals and philosophies, cutting out the deities in that regards, why are there no divine casters of Razmir? It's a question that I once tried to answer so that it made sense in context with Pre-existing rules and Golarion's setting, but I can't see why there is a prohibition on Clerics of Razmir. I rather like the cult and would like to use them more, but this one question has kept me from doing so.

The Pathfinder Core Rules and Golarion Setting Rules are different. In Core, you are correct, that ideals and philosophies are allowable to grant divine power. In Golarion Setting, this is not true. Hence: no clerics of Razmir (by canon, at least).


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Tacticslion wrote:
Hence: no clerics of Razmir (by canon, at least).

lies and slander! There are plenty of razmirans who channel His divine grace!


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EDIT: Nice, ninja. :D

To be a little more specific, it's been covered explicitly by James Jacobs - the Creative Director of the setting.

He has gone on record over this sort of thing several times.

First, the generics:

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

Example 4

And Example 5

Second, the specifics:

One

Two

Three

Four

Five

Six

... as some examples based off of a quick search.


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More propaganda! Your jealousy of razmir the mighty and your attempts to slander his religion will not got unnoticed among the faithful!


Lion, I believe that I have seen a philosophy-devoted cleric somewhere in a sourcebook or module that is Golarion-specific. I don't feel like checking right now, as it's almost 7:00 AM, but still, I believe there is one. If there is, why no Razmiran clerics, at least of the philosophy if obviously not the 'deity'.


Ok, that could be why I have never heard of it, since I'm relatively new to the Paizo messageboards. Still, Razmir should get clerics, because he's just awesome.


That's what a GM and mythic is for! :D

(Also: a neat plot-hook that allows Razmir to somehow gain mythic stuff, and prossibly* a level for the immortality discovery...)

* Not a typo, but a portmanteau of "probably" and "possibly"


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The real question is how did that guy get so powerful and so intelligent (he is a wizard, right?) without having heard of the many means to immortality, including, but not limited to the 20th level wizard option, liching it up, the sun orchard elixir, or, if he's as bad a dude as he thinks he is and his followers claim, the Starstone test.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Well, sadly for him, he's not a PC, so he doesn't get to just gain a level, though I suspect he's desperately trying to do just that.

I also suspect he's deliberately chosen not to go the lich route, with it's well known drawbacks. Though were he to show up in an AP, that might change, becoming so desperate that he is willing to take the drawbacks.

As for the Sun Orchid Elixir, not only is it expensive, but if people found out, it might give away the secret. Though it's entirely possible he's tried and failed to get a dose, the competition is fierce after all.


thegreenteagamer wrote:
The real question is how did that guy get so powerful and so intelligent (he is a wizard, right?) without having heard of the many means to immortality, including, but not limited to the 20th level wizard option, liching it up, the sun orchard elixir, or, if he's as bad a dude as he thinks he is and his followers claim, the Starstone test.

He's heard of the Starstone Test. He just never took it (though he claims he did).

Seems that it took him a looooooooooooonnnnnn~gg time to get to 19th level, and he's been kind of living it up ever since, not quite getting to 20th for various reasons.

He's heard of the Sun Orchid Elixir as well, but he's set up shop pretty far away from it. I believe he's one of the consistent bidders (though it'd be dubious if he could find a way to replicate it and, I believe, it only reverts you to adult-hood). The other problem with seeking out the Sun Orchid Elixir is that Razmir is kind of trapped in a rather phenomenal lie, and if he's too obvious about going after such things, it becomes exceedingly problematic: if he either fails or it becomes public knowledge that Razmir is seeking the thing, his godliness is questioned.

It is for similar reasons that being a lich doesn't really satisfy because, again, he supposedly took the Test of the Starstone. That and, you know, he likes being alive.

In the end, he's been kind of hoist with his own petard, as it were.

EDIT: Ninja'd!


Presumably Razmir is already beyond the scope of a human life as non-PC 19th level wizards don't pop out of nowhere. He may have used the elixir in the past. I don't think him going after more is that risky since virtually no one knows what he looks like, and he's presumably well defended against divination.

Being a 19th level wizard, and the ruler of a nation gives him access to a lot of wealth and a means of transporting it easily without detection as well. But as you say, the elixir is not a permanent solution.


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Well Defended just means he casts Mind Blank regularly.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I think I read somewhere that Razmir IS attempting to get his hands on some Sun Orchid Elixer discreetly, through the use of proxies and other such agents. It's only a stop-gap measure for him until he can find a more permanent means of extending his youth.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I think I read somewhere that Razmir IS attempting to get his hands on some Sun Orchid Elixer discreetly, through the use of proxies and other such agents. It's only a stop-gap measure for him until he can find a more permanent means of extending his youth.

I've seen this in print too. Couldn't cite a source though. :)


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
I think I read somewhere that Razmir IS attempting to get his hands on some Sun Orchid Elixer discreetly, through the use of proxies and other such agents. It's only a stop-gap measure for him until he can find a more permanent means of extending his youth.

I recall reading similar about him trying to bid secretly, but some organization has been blocking him. I'd check-out the Pathfinder Campaign Setting from the 3.5 days, one of the few books about Golarion I've read closely.

As for him already taking some of the elixir, I'm not sure how much merit there is to that. If a PC can do it, why couldn't a NPC?

Dark Archive

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I have an awesome cleric of razmir named elrond halberd. he just happens to be an arcane healer bard archtype. he still channels and heals and has a UMB so high he can use any wand without a roll and almost can't fail any scroll. and he is soooooooo much fun to play.

I also have a razmiri paladin named tomas krooz. he's a battle oracle in full plate, his "smites" are just buffed power attacks and his "detect evil" is tantamount to "you don't like razmir? you must be evil!"


Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
If Clerics can draw divine power from ideals and philosophies, cutting out the deities in that regards, why are there no divine casters of Razmir? It's a question that I once tried to answer so that it made sense in context with Pre-existing rules and Golarion's setting, but I can't see why there is a prohibition on Clerics of Razmir. I rather like the cult and would like to use them more, but this one question has kept me from doing so.

This requires an ideal to draw from. Razmir is not an ideal or a powerful enough being to grant spells.


If Razmir is in fact a 19th level wizard couldn't he use wish to extend his life or reduce his age category until he is able to obtain a more permanent means? It's not really within the approved uses, but seems feasible. At least to try.

Also, as a last stop gap measure couldn't he just create a permanent greater demiplane with the timeless quality. He could never leave once he had past his normal lifespan, but technically wouldn't die.

The spell age resistance will ignore him to ignore the infirmities of age, and illusion magic can make him look younger.

Also, he could a contingent wish to reincarnate himself. No one actually knows what he looks like anyways. That would get him a nice fresh body.


I could see that. Though, most other things which "de-age" you don't add to your maximum life span. They simply stave off penalties. Though, again, I could see each casting of wish extending that by a little bit each time. Clones would be the most sure fire way as the age of the clone is what seems to matter, and clones are inert until activated.

Astral projection would let him explore and interact with his people. I like the demiplane idea.


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Buri Reborn wrote:
I could see that. Though, most other things which "de-age" you don't add to your maximum life span. They simply stave off penalties.

Reincarnate is a good way around that, you explicitly CAN reincarnate people who died of old age. However, I imagine Razmir doesn't want to chance coming back as a bugbear or something.

There is, however, the chance that his soul is otherwise in peril (ill-advised deals with devils, or something) so that if he were to die, even briefly, there would be something preventing him from returning to life so simply.


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The Golux wrote:

Reincarnate is a good way around that, you explicitly CAN reincarnate people who died of old age. However, I imagine Razmir doesn't want to chance coming back as a bugbear or something.

There is, however, the chance that his soul is otherwise in peril (ill-advised deals with devils, or something) so that if he were to die, even briefly, there would be something preventing him from returning to life so simply.

Fo' sho'. There is a certain charm, though, in him "simply" being a high level wizard without further shenanigans involved.


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Buri Reborn wrote:
Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
If Clerics can draw divine power from ideals and philosophies, cutting out the deities in that regards, why are there no divine casters of Razmir? It's a question that I once tried to answer so that it made sense in context with Pre-existing rules and Golarion's setting, but I can't see why there is a prohibition on Clerics of Razmir. I rather like the cult and would like to use them more, but this one question has kept me from doing so.
This requires an ideal to draw from. Razmir is not an ideal or a powerful enough being to grant spells.

Of course a filthy heathen would say that.

Scarab Sages

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Actual answer: Because it's a specific fantasy universe with specific metaphysics determined by specific creator gods (AKA the Paizo development team), and in this specific context, Razmir's claim to divinity doesn't make the cut. In other settings, yes, it easily could.

This is an enduring problem with games like D&D/Pathfinder: They try to make the rules as setting-agnostic as they can, but then they've got a "default/flagship" mythos they call their own and use to set the standard of their games, and there's a conflict there. The solution is simply that players need to recognize that dichotomy when they see it, and accept it for what it is.

Dark Archive

Something I noticed, and this is more fluff text than rules, but the actual "priests" of Razmir fully know it's all a complete sham. As part of their initation, they meet Razmir. He tells them the truth. If they don't agree to serve him and perpetuate the lie across Golarion, they never leave the room alive. If they do agree, he teaches them how to fake divine magic.

I once wanted to make an Arcane Healer bard (with False Focus feat) who worshipped Razmir, and I had planned to get her into the prestige class ASAP, but sadly I never got to play her.

As for the question of his immortality, I see it the same way I see Resurrection in D&D... which I will let you read this article RPG Rants.

RPG Rants: Raising the Dead

I also wanted to post another article, but I couldn't find it... basically it talked about just because you CAN resurrect someone, doesn't mean that you should or even that they would be willing. Plus, the other ramifications.

Say that orcs attack a city and kill the beloved only daughter (whose mother died in childbirth) of a hard working peasant. Ultimately, the orcs are defeated by the noble guards.

A week later, orc rogues sneak into the castle and slit the throat of the princess. Everyone finds out, cause the servants in the castle are terrible gossips. The King, loving his daughter as all fathers do, calls in a priest to resurrect the princess. 10,000 gold, literally a king's ransom... but its worth it for his daughter.

Again, servants are gossips... we know the princess was dead, so we now know she's alive again. What is the peasant going to think? Why is the princess's life worth more than his daughter's life?

I really wish I could find that article, cause it really explained it a lot better and with more detail, ALL the problems with resurrection when you look at it as to how it would actually affect a campaign world.

Like I said, I see immortality the same way.

Oh, and also. Charon. Seriously, in my games if you do manage to buy the Sun Orchid elixir... you better be careful because there are soul drinkers (just cause I love that prestige class for Four Horseman cultists) working for Charon at that auction, bidding against you. If they win, they pour it out. But you won, they will hunt you down.

Other ways of immortality (but not so much undead methods) Charon's cultists might not know immediately, but if they find out... you will have them after you for life. I will continue throughout the campaign to occasionally have them come after you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
If Clerics can draw divine power from ideals and philosophies, cutting out the deities in that regards, why are there no divine casters of Razmir? It's a question that I once tried to answer so that it made sense in context with Pre-existing rules and Golarion's setting, but I can't see why there is a prohibition on Clerics of Razmir. I rather like the cult and would like to use them more, but this one question has kept me from doing so.

1. The setting does not allow for concept clerics. They must hook up to a real god.

2. It would seriously undermine the story idea of Razmir and his clergy being fakes.

Dark Archive

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IF you really like the cult and want to use them more, then do so! But remember, they are mostly sorcerer with the razmiran priest archetype (called false priest I think on d20pfsrd), arcane healers (bard archetype) and many have the razmir priest prestige class (again name is changed on d20pfrd) because they are charlatans. Sure, they can totally channel positive energy to heal you... but it's temporary hit points. Cause again, they are a bunch of sorcerers and bards posing as priests of a false god.

There is even a special type of wrath known as an "apostasy wraith" which is specifically what worshippers of Razmir that never find out the truth become. When they die and get to the afterlife and find out their entire religion was a sham, they rage and return as wraiths. But, they hate Razmir now... and they get special powers vs. him and his 'priests' and even against real priests, because they hate them even more than Razmir.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I once wanted to play a priest of Razmir myself, but I wasn't able to. She was an arcane healer.

Here are links to the different archetypes and such (using Archives of Netyhs in this case, so you can read them with the Pathfinder IP stuff intact)

False Focus (Feat)

Arcane Healer (Bard Archetype)

Razmiran Priest (Sorcerer Archetype)

Razmiran Priest (Prestige Class)

Apostasy Wraith


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

And then there are always oracles too (although their powers ultimately come from somewhere else.) I can't remember where, but IIRC there were some clerics of Sivanah are pretending to be "clerics" of Razmir. So you may not be able to play a true priest of Razmir, but how about a false false priest? ;)

Actually, the idea of infiltrating the cult of a false divinity and siphoning off some of that energy into something that does have some true power has a nice irony to it.

Shadow Lodge

I've never actually liked the Razmir thing. Basically nothing changes in their intent and flavor if there are actual Clerics. They are still a very charismatic and evil group that's all about deception for their own gain.

It also doesn't change one bit if there are actual Clerics of other similar deities, like Norgorber (murder, secrets, deception), Nethys (magic in all of it's forms), or even a more political faction of Calistria, (vengeance, pain).

Groetus, Zyphus, and Sivanah would also fit well, as each could very easily, (just like the other "false priests") use the Cult for their own personal gain at the expense of everyone else. Groetus literally doesn't care at all what his followers do, Zyphus would love an additional stream of souls from those aspirants that don't make the cut, and Sivanah, I would think, would delight in the parables of the Cult (31 Steps) as a cultural re-envisioning of her own religious mysteries, as well as a form of practicing what you preach.

Have member of any of these patrons aligned with the Cult of Razmir, works perfectly fine, and actually much better, as these Clerics would be persecuting their own kind and especially other religions in a very hypocritical, but appropriate way.

Also, with the inclusion of the Oracle class, which works 100% perfectly fine within the Cult, in both mechanics and setting, the idea of "No real Clerics" is just a meaningless division. And even in the setting's history, it really wasn't until the Oracle came along that Paizo even officially said that there where no Concept Clerics in the setting.

It also doesn't detract from the various Feats and Archetype options presented, as they just allow for even more options all around. It's just one of those concepts where logic, cool factor, and intent just don't match up at all, and continuing to try to pigeonhole it in anyways (as it is) is more a disservice than a benefit, and personally I think it's mostly because someone has a pet peeve against allowing Clerics to have options and flavor and really wanted to force the setting deities.

And looks like I was a bit ninja'd. :)


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Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
Lion, I believe that I have seen a philosophy-devoted cleric somewhere in a sourcebook or module that is Golarion-specific. I don't feel like checking right now, as it's almost 7:00 AM, but still, I believe there is one. If there is, why no Razmiran clerics, at least of the philosophy if obviously not the 'deity'.

Even without the Golarion rule of no clerics must have a god ( if you saw it once it was a mistake as James Jocobs has said numerous times that they do) I would still rule no Clerics of Razmiran. Because there is no philosophy or ideals here. It is pyramid scheme played out to a very evil level. "I am awesome you should worship me" is not a ideal or philosophy.

Though he does have clerical support as the Inner Sea God books said that Sivanah has clerics in his service to support the deception.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Kretzer wrote:
Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
Lion, I believe that I have seen a philosophy-devoted cleric somewhere in a sourcebook or module that is Golarion-specific. I don't feel like checking right now, as it's almost 7:00 AM, but still, I believe there is one. If there is, why no Razmiran clerics, at least of the philosophy if obviously not the 'deity'.

Even without the Golarion rule of no clerics must have a god ( if you saw it once it was a mistake as James Jocobs has said numerous times that they do) I would still rule no Clerics of Razmiran. Because there is no philosophy or ideals here. It is pyramid scheme played out to a very evil level. "I am awesome you should worship me" is not a ideal or philosophy.

Though he does have clerical support as the Inner Sea God books said that Sivanah has clerics in his service to support the deception.

Does it say how Razmir feels about Sivanah's clerics?


Dreaming Psion wrote:
Does it say how Razmir feels about Sivanah's clerics?

I imagine he's okay with it since it would help his deception and further legitimize his claim as being a deity.


@Dreaming Psion: It says that Sivanah supports him...and that his only divine mentor and ally is Sivanah...so I am guessing he is Okay with it.

Dark Archive

Haha cool I didn't know about Sivanah's relationship with Razmir. I still prefer the whole bard/sorcerer charlatan angle myself though.

Grand Lodge

Behold for I am a true high priest of Razmir and all those that doubt his divine arcana shall fall before his divine majesty!

But yeah I have this alchemist as a bit of a fun joke character. He is planning on taking Infusion as his first discovery and Healing Bombs as his second, and this will be his method of Channeling Energy. He will mix and infused extract of any cure and throw it at his feet, creating a small concentrated healing burst that will mostly affect him but what can you do he is the only rel devote of Razmir so he gains the most health and the others just get his splash.

He also uses his super high knowledge arcana to recall all the casting requirements for spells, and uses his amazingly high slight of hand to discreetly pull bombs and extracts and his mutagen from his pockets and act as though these things were magic spells divined from Razmir. His bombs are all in glass spheres with small corks he prepares well ahead of time along with extracts and his mutagens he prepares in sponge sugar capsules he can eat and leave no evidence.

Anyway, fun character to run. He claims to be a high Cleric but is actually an alchemist addicted to Razmir's Tears and will do whatever is needed to get more. Even infiltrate the Pathfinder Society for his lord Razmir.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thegreenteagamer wrote:
The real question is how did that guy get so powerful and so intelligent (he is a wizard, right?) without having heard of the many means to immortality, including, but not limited to the 20th level wizard option, liching it up, the sun orchard elixir, or, if he's as bad a dude as he thinks he is and his followers claim, the Starstone test.

As Mr. Jacobs would say... "Unrevealed".

But keep in mind that the choices that a player can make for a character, aren't the same as the choices a character can make for itself.


I believe he's a frequent bidder on the Sun Orchid Elixir.


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thegreenteagamer wrote:
The real question is how did that guy get so powerful and so intelligent (he is a wizard, right?) without having heard of the many means to immortality, including, but not limited to the 20th level wizard option, liching it up, the sun orchard elixir, or, if he's as bad a dude as he thinks he is and his followers claim, the Starstone test.

Lichdom is the loser's answer. It says "I ain't good enough to get REAL immortality, so I'll just settle for being a maggot eaten corpse that still gets to do stuff".

That isn't the path of GODS!

Anyway, why would he need the sun orchard elixir or starstone test if he is already a GOD. If he started looking into those things (and he is set up far enough away that it would be hard for him to go after discretely)...it would be a sign to the unfaithful that he isn't actually a god. And that is OBVIOUSLY NOT TRUE, right?


Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
Lion, I believe that I have seen a philosophy-devoted cleric somewhere in a sourcebook or module that is Golarion-specific. I don't feel like checking right now, as it's almost 7:00 AM, but still, I believe there is one. If there is, why no Razmiran clerics, at least of the philosophy if obviously not the 'deity'.

There were also clerics of polytheistic faith drawing their powers from multiple gods in an alliance, but Jacobs put a stop to that.


Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

Something I noticed, and this is more fluff text than rules, but the actual "priests" of Razmir fully know it's all a complete sham. As part of their initation, they meet Razmir. He tells them the truth. If they don't agree to serve him and perpetuate the lie across Golarion, they never leave the room alive. If they do agree, he teaches them how to fake divine magic.

I once wanted to make an Arcane Healer bard (with False Focus feat) who worshipped Razmir, and I had planned to get her into the prestige class ASAP, but sadly I never got to play her.

As for the question of his immortality, I see it the same way I see Resurrection in D&D... which I will let you read this article RPG Rants.

RPG Rants: Raising the Dead

I also wanted to post another article, but I couldn't find it... basically it talked about just because you CAN resurrect someone, doesn't mean that you should or even that they would be willing. Plus, the other ramifications.

Say that orcs attack a city and kill the beloved only daughter (whose mother died in childbirth) of a hard working peasant. Ultimately, the orcs are defeated by the noble guards.

A week later, orc rogues sneak into the castle and slit the throat of the princess. Everyone finds out, cause the servants in the castle are terrible gossips. The King, loving his daughter as all fathers do, calls in a priest to resurrect the princess. 10,000 gold, literally a king's ransom... but its worth it for his daughter.

Again, servants are gossips... we know the princess was dead, so we now know she's alive again. What is the peasant going to think? Why is the princess's life worth more than his daughter's life?

I really wish I could find that article, cause it really explained it a lot better and with more detail, ALL the problems with resurrection when you look at it as to how it would actually affect a campaign world.

Like I said, I see immortality the same way.

Oh,...

I think that is more than a little nod to Dostoevsky, the Sword of Caesar and his theory on priests and the big lie. Or a second-hand cynical view of religious leaders. :D


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LazarX wrote:
Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
If Clerics can draw divine power from ideals and philosophies, cutting out the deities in that regards, why are there no divine casters of Razmir? It's a question that I once tried to answer so that it made sense in context with Pre-existing rules and Golarion's setting, but I can't see why there is a prohibition on Clerics of Razmir. I rather like the cult and would like to use them more, but this one question has kept me from doing so.

1. The setting does not allow for concept clerics. They must hook up to a real god.

2. It would seriously undermine the story idea of Razmir and his clergy being fakes.

I would dispute number two. I think it actually legitimizes it.

Remember, one of the requirements for being a Razmiran priest (in the description of the Prestige lass) is that they all be "absolute believers". They have real, true faith in Razmir's identity as a living deity.

As such (were Clerics of Ideals canon), that would be all that's necessary, and would make Razmir all the more terrifying (and yet perversely admirable). He's such a good con man that his followers exhibit enough faith to rival the powers of Clerics of ACTUAL deities.

That's just too badass to pass up IMO.


God of the long con.

One of my favourite Golarion figures.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Sir Awesomesauce McSnazzlepants wrote:
If Clerics can draw divine power from ideals and philosophies, cutting out the deities in that regards, why are there no divine casters of Razmir? It's a question that I once tried to answer so that it made sense in context with Pre-existing rules and Golarion's setting, but I can't see why there is a prohibition on Clerics of Razmir. I rather like the cult and would like to use them more, but this one question has kept me from doing so.

1. The setting does not allow for concept clerics. They must hook up to a real god.

2. It would seriously undermine the story idea of Razmir and his clergy being fakes.

I would dispute number two. I think it actually legitimizes it.

Remember, one of the requirements for being a Razmiran priest (in the description of the Prestige lass) is that they all be "absolute believers". They have real, true faith in Razmir's identity as a living deity.

As such (were Clerics of Ideals canon), that would be all that's necessary, and would make Razmir all the more terrifying (and yet perversely admirable). He's such a good con man that his followers exhibit enough faith to rival the powers of Clerics of ACTUAL deities.

That's just too badass to pass up IMO.

The thing is we HAVE already a nicely beautiful structure for Razmir's fake clerics in the persona of the Razimiran sorcerer archetype and associated feats.

And again Clerics of Ideals are specifically NOT part of the Golarion setting. (nor would they be in any setting I run.) And more to the point, if you give Razmir real clerics, it severely cheapens and dilutes the unique circumstances of his cult, essentially removing all of the unique features of Razmiran faith as opposed to any other. Razmir isn't a true god, and he really shouldn't get all of the perks of one.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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LazarX wrote:
thegreenteagamer wrote:
The real question is how did that guy get so powerful and so intelligent (he is a wizard, right?) without having heard of the many means to immortality, including, but not limited to the 20th level wizard option, liching it up, the sun orchard elixir, or, if he's as bad a dude as he thinks he is and his followers claim, the Starstone test.

As Mr. Jacobs would say... "Unrevealed".

But keep in mind that the choices that a player can make for a character, aren't the same as the choices a character can make for itself.

It's not QUITE unrevealed.

Razmir HAS heard of the various routes to immortality. One of his story elements is that each time he tries to reach one of those routes, he fails. And now he's running out of time and getting desperate.

As folks have noted, reincarnation WOULD help, but Razmir is FAR too arrogant and proud to risk losing his body for something unpalatable.

It's also further worth noting that Razmir is one of Jason Bulmahn's pet NPCs/nations, and one that we're unlikely to do TOO much with unless he writes the product in question. And since he's super busy... it's just an unfortunate truth that Razmir stuff is slow in getting out there.

And also? The rule of "Clerics must worship a deity" is in part in place in Golarion BECAUSE it enables Razmiran. It's also in there because I vastly prefer clerics to be deity servants and not servants of vague concepts (that role is the oracle's).

And no, the irony that we didn't shed the 3.5 idea of clerics of non-deities and kept it in the Core Rulebook (100% due to wanting to preserve backward compatibility in this case) even though that rule undermines his favorite NPC in the setting is not lost on me. ;-P

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