Are Self Buffs Worth It?


Advice


Hello all,

[note that in this scenario I'm more talking about casters that tend to involve themselves physically in battle, such as the magus or alchemist]

I have this odd stigma about doing self buffs in pathfinder and I believe it's because I'm looking at it wrong, so I'm here to see if some good people can help me look at it from another angle and find peace with it.

My "stigma" is that they're a waste of actions. If I'm buffing myself say with alter self, then that's one standard action I didn't use to attack and try to eliminate the threat, thus leaving myself and possibly my party members that much more vulnerable.

Now, I know that some might say, "That's why you buff before you start the fight" but that, more often then not, has been something I cannot do. Most of the time I'm the one surprised by the monster that's hiding in waiting, ready to pounce at its next potential meal (aka me). It's extremely rare that I've had time to pre-battle buff and I'm not just going to guess that I could end up in battle within the next 5 minutes / rounds (or hours depending on the buff) and waste a resource in doing so.

So, that leads me to the question once more. What is the smart / best way to buff yourself for a fight, assuming you didn't see it coming? Is it worth it to bite the bullet and just use that standard action to alter self, getting the +2 to stat and small benefits? Or is it better to attack / attempt to stop the enemy?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The answer is sometimes you can't self buff at all. Other times you may find yourself in a fight, and find that you're utterly useless unless you apply a particular weapon buff so you'll take that rounds loss of actions to do so.

The answer is situational.

Scarab Sages

Self Buffs are worth it when you have the opportunity to pre-buff, or if you have a class feature such as spell combat or fervor that allows you buff and attack in the same round.

Warpriests and Magi are obviously the best at this, although anyone with quickened spells can do it as well.


the easy answer here is to use a Warpriest Fervor ability for quicken buffing so you don't need to use your standard actions in combat to self buff


Step one: see more fights coming. Any time you step foot into an enemy camp/dungeon/building/stronghold/portal, cast your buffs. It's a dungeon. Combat will happen. Don't do rounds/level buffs though. If you're traveling overland, ask the GM why you didn't get a perception check (unless you or he has been rolling them, of course). If you do, ask yourself why you don't have max perception. I'm not saying never get ambushed, but at least 50% of your fights should be foreseeable.

Step two: find ways to get buffs as swift actions, or make cohorts/familiars/DMPCs do the buffing for you.

Step three: use really long buffs. Mage Armor is good. Barkskin too. Heroism.

Step four: think more about buffs that when you need them, you REALLY need them. Casting See Invis won't be a waste of a round when you need it. Nor will things that make your nauseated companions immune to nauseated. Freedom of Movement is pretty much trading one turn for another turn. They're not buffs in the traditional sense, but they are.


You should not often be buffing in combat.

You SHOULD often be buffing before combat. 10 min/level and longer buffs may as well be "all dungeon long, and maybe more" in duration.

1 min/level lasts a good long while at high levels. At least 1 or 2 combats worth with exploring in between.

If you absolutely MUST buff in combat, or are using round/level buffs, make sure to A.) Pick very potent ones. Divine Power, Righteous Might = Good. Alter Self, low CL Divine Favor = Bad.

And B.) Never cast more than one. Don't waste two rounds getting into the fight. Cast your biggest, baddest buff and roll out.

My Inquisitor (15th level) has, at any given time (copied from my sheet):

Corruption Resistance, See Invisibility, Resist Energy (Fire), Quicken the Dead, Keen Edge, Seal Against Positive Energy: 70 minutes remaining
-Echolocation: 160 minutes remaining.
-Countless Eyes: 14 hours remaining
-Shield of Faith (Re-cast before we get moving again): 15 minutes remaining

Echolocation is unusual. Everyone in the party is Blind from being whacked by a Sunburst last session. Quicken the Dead is Heroism for Undead (I'm a Vampire. I have an item that let me avoid instantaneous destruction from Sunburst, in case you're wondering).


I think a big part is how long will this fight go? I've used a barbarian and not raged in a fight because the fight would only last 2-3 rounds and I didn't want to be fatigued. I've seen a fight take 10+ rounds where a buff could have really helped.

So now you know how long the fight will be see how effective your buff will be.

If my Attack bonus is +7 and their AC is 20 I hit ~1/3 of the time, if I cast my buff then I'm at a +14 and hit ~2/3, or doubling my value. If I cast my buff and am at +8, might not be worth it, but it could be worth it.

now with these two factors you decide if it's worth it.
This is a big fight and I have trouble hitting, my good buff is good to use now as this is a longer fight.
This is a simple random encounter, no buff is needed as this isn't a big threat.


A lot of interesting insight everyone. So far it looks like aim for longer durations that you can set and forget, or pick one good one at the beginning of combat (that'll be most useful) and use just the one are likely going to be what I use to see if I can get something out of buffing.

Maybe things will change since I'm in a new campaign and setting, but in the last one I think the Dm found it the best way to challenge us and just told us we were being attacked.


Yes, pre-buffing is preferred. If you have to decide if you're going to buff in combat, the best thing to do is to have some math worked out ahead of time.

For example, lets say you're a Fighter that has lots of UMD ranks and the trait to make it a class skill, and you've got a wand of Bull's Strength. And lets assume you have a greatsword.

Greatsword is 2d6 19-20/x2 (we'll assume a STR 10 for right now to make the math easier). Average roll for a d6 is 3.5, so you're looking at doing an average of 7 base damage per hit, and lets say you only need to roll a 10 to hit. So on a 1-9 you do 0 points of damage, on a 10-18 you do 7 points, on a 19-20 you do 14 points. Add all that up and divide by 20, and you get an average damage per swing of (63+28)/20=4.55.

Okay, you now know that your base damage for the one attack you would have made is 4.55. Redo the above math with the Bull's Strength giving you +4 Str, and you're doing 9 points of base damage (2d6+2), and you are now hitting on an 8 or higher. So 1-7 = 0, 8-18 = 9, 19-20 = 18. Your new average damage is now 5.85, an increase of 1.3 damage.

Take the damage you normally get unbuffed (4.55), and divide that by the increase in damage (1.3), and you get 3.5. Round up to full rounds, and that means it will take you 4 rounds to make up the difference in the damage you lost from spending the first round buffing.

How long do you think the encounter will be? If you think it'll be over in less than 5 rounds, then in-combat buffing is a waste of time, don't do it. If it lasts exactly 5 rounds, your damage works out the same either way, but you just wasted your buff spell, not worth it. If the encounter is 6 or more rounds long, then bam, you will see a net increase in damage by buffing the first round.

Thats the basic idea of the math for this. You just figure out how much damage you would do in a round without buffing, see how much damage you do after buffing, and then seeing how long it takes you to make up for missing that first round.

Or a much simpler rule of thumb, "The longer the fight, the more a buff is worth".

Sovereign Court

I self-buff my cleric everyday:

-Greater Magic weapon on my masterwork weapon (becomes a +4) with rod of extend to make it last more than 24 hours.
-Magic vestment on my armor (becomes a +4) with rod of extend to make it last more than 24 hours.
-Moment of Prescience (once per day massive bonus can be added to any rolls or even AC)

Combat routine(When I expect to do some melee):

-Divine favor (+3 to my attack rolls including damage) as a swift action (Quicken rod)

Standard action: Blessing of Fervor or Frightful Aspect, Blessing of fervor if someone in my party didn't cast haste, if haste has been cast, go straight for frightful aspect.

If no melee is involved, usually would summon some creatures with sacred summon+summon good, got a nice choice of them.

Silver Crusade

You've put your finger on the problem with the self buff strategy. I totally agree with you. It's rarely worthwhile to do a small self-buff when you could be taking down a foe. If your GM is the sort who always does close-range surprise encounters, when you had no expectation of danger, you won't be able to pre-buff at all before combat. Perhaps work the minute-per-round buffs, especially if you might be going into a dangerous situation.

A PC who makes effective use of reach sometimes need not choose between buffing and attacking. Just move 15' from the foe then cast that self-buff spell. Your buff will apply to your AoOs, which you would not have got if you'd rushed right in to melee combat. This doesn't help PCs who lack reach, of course.

A low level PC who relies heavily on Divine Favor gets a +2 +2 attack power bonus from it. For my low level martial tank PC the 'balance point' is 3-4 attacks. If I expect to make more than 4 attack in the combat, then first-round Divine Favor is the ticket. If I expect the fight to end before I make 4 attacks, then just attack.

Perhaps acquire a better scout, so you have more advance warning. If you are often surprised it suggests your scout is frequently failing. A fully-buffed party typically has at least 2x the combat power of an un-buffed party. Thus, a good scout who reliably warns the party of danger doubles the effective combat power of the whole party!

Hint for every GM: When two WW2-era infantry forces clashed out of doors, with both sides deploying scouts, the average encounter distance is 300 meters. As in, both sides would spot the other, and posibly commence firing, at about 300 meters, Now, with more technology, the average encounter distance is even larger.


Some of the fighting and self buffing characters that I have seen mostly use the in-combat self buffing for specific situations.

Suddenly fighting fey or lycanthropes - versatile weapon.
Mounted archer is running circles around us - expeditious retreat.
Harpy sorcerer is blasting us from above the treetops - fly.

Things like that.

An Alter Self spell would almost only be used as a pre-combat buff spell.
OR
If they have some reason to think that the fight will be exceptionally brutal/long and the buff will be needed.

The never getting any warning is usually a result of a group refusing to have anyone that scouts. Well, ok sure. If all of you are clomping around in a group, you can pretty much count on the bad guys setting up ambushes for you.

Liberty's Edge

Dip into Wizard (Divination school). You always get a surprise round action which you can use for your self buff. Better yet, build the character so it doesn't need buffs.

A first round self buff is not much of a wasted action IF it significantly increases your usefulness in defeating the foe. First round you will only get one strike no matter what, so maybe not a big loss. Alter Self for a +2 stat boost is what I would call a wasted buff, unless you get some other ability needed to engage the foe.

Generally I consider self buff in combat to be the sign of a beginner. Group buffs are more useful and much more appreciated by your team mates.

Silver Crusade

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As a buff-reliant melee cleric played from 1st to 11th in PFS, I'll offer the following advice:

1) Assess the situation. Sometimes it's good to let allies/monsters go first so you know how serious the fight is (or isn't). You'll be sad if you win initiative, cast divine favor, and then watch the fight all but end before your next turn. You'll also be sad if you walk up and take a swing unbuffed, then discover over the course of the first round that you're in way over your head and have to spend your second turn buffing after already wasting your first turn flailing ineffectually. Learn to gauge the threat (Knowledge skills help here, as does judicious use of the Delay option).

2) One and done. Try to only need one round of buffing to get "online". For instance, I would cast divine favor on my first turn, and I was ready. At level 5+, I would capitalize on the duration of heroism (domain spell) to try and have it already running before combat started, and often for more than one combat. Starting at 8th, I could get it going as a swift action, so I always had access to it when I needed it but without spending a round casting it.

3) Forewarned is forearmed. As others have said, mind your durations. I pretty much never got to pre-cast the 1min divine favor, but in any typical "dungeon" type situation, things like heroism get cast before you walk through the front door and last the whole dungeon. Things like life bubble or overland flight get cast at breakfast. The minute-per-level buffs are trickier, but a solid Perception score and good use of divinations can help out a little.

Hope that helps!

Scarab Sages

EricMcG wrote:
Alter Self for a +2 stat boost is what I would call a wasted buff, unless you get some other ability needed to engage the foe.

Alter Self for a +2 to Str is a wasted buff. Alter Self into a sewer troll for +2 to Str, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Scent, and a Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine with 10' reach on the claws is not.


If you're a melee person planning on it for your attacks it's required.


Imbicatus wrote:
Alter Self for a +2 to Str is a wasted buff. Alter Self into a sewer troll for +2 to Str, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Scent, and a Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine with 10' reach on the claws is not.

While I know they get the +2 to STR and the Darkvision, Low Light Vision and Scent, I didn't think they got the natural attacks and reach since it doesn't specify them in the spell itself. If they do, even better.

Thomas, the Tiefling Hero! wrote:
Hope that helps!

It does indeed. Thanks.

And thanks to everyone who's given their useful insight.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Pre-buffing is the ideal. However, sometimes the better answer is to buff and let the enemy come to you, rather than head to the enemy without buffing. Most combats find characters with a round to get something off. That is a prime time to activate one of your short term buffs if you think you'll need it.

Dark Archive

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A rod of extend turns most minute/level spells into buffs that last several combats. Casting divine favor before kicking down the door could be a waste, but that's why you carry pearls of power.

Scarab Sages

Third Mind wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Alter Self for a +2 to Str is a wasted buff. Alter Self into a sewer troll for +2 to Str, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Scent, and a Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine with 10' reach on the claws is not.

While I know they get the +2 to STR and the Darkvision, Low Light Vision and Scent, I didn't think they got the natural attacks and reach since it doesn't specify them in the spell itself. If they do, even better.

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, and as such it grants any natural attacks the base form has.


Imbicatus wrote:
Alter Self is a polymorph spell, and as such it grants any natural attacks the base form has.

Interesting.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Imbicatus wrote:
Third Mind wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Alter Self for a +2 to Str is a wasted buff. Alter Self into a sewer troll for +2 to Str, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Scent, and a Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine with 10' reach on the claws is not.

While I know they get the +2 to STR and the Darkvision, Low Light Vision and Scent, I didn't think they got the natural attacks and reach since it doesn't specify them in the spell itself. If they do, even better.

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, and as such it grants any natural attacks the base form has.

EDIT: Nothing to see here, move along...


it is also the case that in some combats you may have a round or two in the middle of the fight where buffing is a good use of actions (you've just killed some minions and the dragon etc is out of your range flying & circling back)

some spells in combat also make buffing better - Blessing of Fervor cast on the party is a fantastic time to cast some level 1 or level 2 buffs (free extend metamagic or situationally free silent or still spell)

As others have noted spells you can cast at the beginning of the day or at least when you first enter a dungeon are typically the best buffs to have cast - no reason to cast those in combat other than the rare case of free metamagic if you do).

Spells like Alter Self are also useful for their flexibility - spells like beast shape even more so (you can take a form with flight even slow flight can be a lifesaver in many situations).

I would also talk with your GM - if every combat starts with the PC's and monsters within close range of each other you are missing out on a lot of the game (ranged combat, time to maneuver/cast buffs/seek at environmental advantages). It can also be a matter of playing a larger map and occasionally letting one encounter flow into the next without taking a long break to search the room/heal etc (in many dungeons they become far more challenging if the DM doesn't ignore that monsters can flee from one room to the next or that inhabitants of other rooms may come to investigate the sounds of a battle. In those cases you may hear enemies coming but be unable to easily engage them - self-buffing may be a very smart move then (to say get dark vision if you don't have it)


Jiggy wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Third Mind wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Alter Self for a +2 to Str is a wasted buff. Alter Self into a sewer troll for +2 to Str, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Scent, and a Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine with 10' reach on the claws is not.

While I know they get the +2 to STR and the Darkvision, Low Light Vision and Scent, I didn't think they got the natural attacks and reach since it doesn't specify them in the spell itself. If they do, even better.

Alter Self is a polymorph spell, and as such it grants any natural attacks the base form has.

Re-read the rules you just linked. The second sentence explicitly says you do NOT gain all the abilities of the creature. It then goes on to explain how individual spells will open up certain abilities, such that if the creature you change into has an ability listed in the spell, you gain that ability. It even explains how to determine which ability you get if the spell lists an ability and the creature has a stronger or weaker version of it.

Alter self's list does not include natural attacks.

Doesn't need to. You gain the Natural Attacks IN ADDITION TO any other benefits it MIGHT give you or is listed.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

D'oh! Reading fail on my part. :(


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Self Buffs make sense if you have time for it.

There is something I notice at least with people I play. They charge in to action, they need to get there, they must charge!
If you ready stay in your place and buff, let the enemy cut distance, then you can full attack with your buffs on while your enemy could only single attack you. Works if you are deadly enough with a full attack or if the distance is pretty large.

Also, readied actions.


It's worth noting that your net loss from spending a round buffing instead of attacking is less significant if you're buffing on a round where you can't full attack (at levels where full attacks become important). That loss of potential value is often much more easily overcome than the loss of a full attack; and you can buff while you move in.


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Third Mind wrote:
I'm not just going to guess that I could end up in battle within the next 5 minutes / rounds (or hours depending on the buff) and waste a resource in doing so.

Why not? Guessing when battle is likely to happen isn't all that difficult in most adventures. (Opening a sarcophagus? Probably going to be an undead attack. Scaling the walls of an enemy fortress? Probably going to have to fight guards. Entering an ancient abandoned temple? There will be monsters.)

Sure, sometimes you'll waste the spell, but spells that don't get cast also go to waste.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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As mentioned above, in general, you're going to want to cast your hr/level and 10 min/level buffs before you enter an area where you expect encounters.

Past 7th-8th level or so, you're going to add your 1 min/level buffs to that list, too, because you're going to use the extremely cost-effective lesser extend metamagic rods to extend those min/level buffs so they last for multiple encounters.

Round/level buffs are the ones you cast on the first round of combat or in the surprise round, or if you get a break where you can't do something else. Or you're going to cast them on your buddy, or have your buddy cast them on you. Prime example: haste. You're probably not going to bother extending these because until high levels, they're unlikely to last for more than a single encounter. Unless you are buffing the entire party, or you are combat ineffective against whatever you're fighting due to buffs not being up, don't burn a bunch of combat rounds getting your buffs spun up to fight. Bards are great for this past level 7-8 because they can a) cast extended good hope in advance, b) move action inspire courage, and c) haste to get massive group buffs up in basically 1 combat round.

If you summon, be sure to use rounds/level summon spells BEFORE you cast your rounds/level group buffs so the summoned critters can get the benefit, too.

The other two pieces of this are 1) that you must always strive to control when you have encounters. This is RPG tactics above the round-to-round level. Use divination magic, stealth (including invisibility, etc.), and scouting to make sure you know where the badguys are before they know where you are. Sometimes the bad guys are just going to get the drop on you, and that's part of adventuring--but do your part to make sure that's the exception rather than the rule.

And 2) stay on the offensive. Doing this lets you squeeze the most encounters into the few minutes every day covered by your min/level buffs. If possible, "blitz" entire dungeons/dungeon levels/encounter clusters while your min/level buffs are up. Loot the bodies later!


worth noting that if the PC's start casting buffs (which as we've noted there are very good reasons to be doing) many GM's will also let NPC's and monsters who have some buffs also cast them (many prepared PFS scenarios and modules assume that the NPC's get up some buffs). As a GM I like to start encounters at some distance so both the NPCs and the party get to use their longer range tactics (including spending some time buffing) as I think this lets the whole party shine (and it makes the PC's who are optimized for melee full-attack actions think about how they can contribute before they can close - and/or how they can work as a party to close faster than expected (dimension door etc at higher levels - or early casting of spells like Haste)


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Self buffing is only useful if you can get them in play without giving up your combat rounds. Quickened or quicker spells by fervor, rods, arcane bloodrage, prebuffs, etc.

Unless you've got a reach build, where you just move into position and punish anything that provokes, I guess.


It depends on the buff and the situation.

You're trading out at least one attack to make that buff. What does the buff get you in return, and how many rounds will it take you to make up the lost damage from the attack?
For example:
Trading 12 damage for +1 to hit and damage is clearly not worth it: it will take you 10-12 rounds to make up the damage you lost.

Trading 12 damage for the ability to overcome DR and do an additional +10 damage on every hit is clearly worth it: you'll make that up on the next attack.

Those are pretty obvious. Most self buffs are in the gray areas, like "do I trade 12 damage to increase my weapon damage die from 1d8 to 2d6", where 3.5 extra damage per hit will take you 4 attacks to make up the one you lost. If you think the combat will last 10 rounds, then this could very well be worth it. If you think it will last 3 rounds or less, then it clear isn't.


If you need to buff, buff. Monster AC roughly tracks with medium BAB, which means an unbuffed cleric cannot generally afford to use power attack enemies, but with divine favor she can. You may be looking at 1d8+8 at level 9 (18 strength on a 2 handed spear and +2 from GMW). Divine Favor, by enabling power attack, bumps that up to 1d8+17 while still hitting at +1 relative to a bare attack. That's more than a 70% increase. If you will make two attacks after buffing that's worth the standard action.

A paladin probably doesn't want to cast divine favor. She already has full BAB and is likely to invest more in strength and a better weapon than a cleric.


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With the new fortuitous property making reach builds even more amazing (it is practically a small full attack as AoOs), it is not too hard to make something that can take advantage of self buffs and still deal damage at the same time.

A single attack after a move traded in for buffing the next 2 attacks and everything that follows after. Good trade.

It also helps if you are using buffs that affect multiple targets, such as old go to's like haste. They can let you write off your loss of personal damage by boosting everyone else's damage.


This also touches on the value of perception and initiative. If you surprise the enemy, and beat them on initiative, that's potentially a buff spell in the surprise round, followed by a charge or an offensive spell, or a second buff spell.

If they surprise you, you're in the fight with no advantages.

-----------

Also, consider the difficulty of the fight. Can you make it through without the buff spell? You need to guess. Sometimes, resist energy isn't a waste of an action, it's the thing that changes failure to success.

That's worth an action. Otherwise, if you get burnt to death by the wall of fire, the action you gained by skipping the resist, you'll lose by laying on the floor unconscious. You'll also cost your allies actions as they try to save your burnt behind.

That'so a net loss of actions, trading one action now for 3-4 later. Why do that?


Buffs are amazing if:
1) pre fight
2) your buff effect more than you. (Aoe)
3) if buff is swift
4) in round 1.

My paladin cast displacment in round 1 while moving in.


Blaming the scout is all well and good, but if the GM regularly gets bored with that (perhaps because forewarned PCs are too good at their jobs) and just starts most combats within charging distance and too bad for you, not much you can do about it.


If a GM always starts combats in close range then the players should talk with the GM about varying up encounters. Even prewritten scenarios often have a lot of flexibility with when the group switches into a round by round tactical engagement - buffs don't have much value if your every encounter is over in 1-3 rounds, but they have massive value if you end up in 20+ round encounters that range over a variety of areas and may see waves of enemies engaging.

As a GM (And as a player) I love the longer encounters that barely give the party room to catch their breath - sure they may take a while to resolve, but they also reward the full spectrum of character types in the party and often also reward creativity and smart tactics (if you don't think the encounter will be over immediately then preparing an using some buffs can be a phenomenally valuable decision - and may then give your casters new roles to play in the ongoing encounter (tanking, melee combat, scouting etc). They also reward characters who reach deep into their equipment and class features for abilities or items/tricks they haven't used in a while (using that old scroll of mount to create some cover/speedbump while fleeing enemies down a corridor etc)


I'd also look into Quicken Spell or a Rod of Quicken Spell if your GM throws nothing but close quarter no-warning fights at you. Buff as a swift action and still keep your turn.


The pre-buff strategy works best with the extend spell metamagic.

Spell duration is the key here anything less than ten minutes/level cannot be relied upon for the entire set of encounters you may face in a dungeon and so should be memorised more than once if a prepared caster.

One hour/level buffs have the advantage of possibly lasting well into the new adventuring day if cast prior to rest, especially if a spontaneous caster (I have a sorcerer who specialises in this with spells like Dark-vision lasting a good 8 hours into the new day). These also make good wands.

Dispel Magic is of course the enemy here and is more of a threat than an ambush if you are already committed to battle as your offensive and defensive power depends largely on buffs usually. To lose the bulk of your buffs mid-fight is your nightmare scenario so have some sort of mobility enhancement for escape if possible.

Ambushes, you just use your best buffs regardless of duration but remember a miss chance is probably a better defence than a few points of armour class.

Finally look at stackable buffs (shield, mage armour, pro. vs. evil, are all first level for example) and can make you near unhittable if combined - this gives you the tactical ability to be very aggressive and to charge into the enemy groupings.


Leadership plus wizard usually works the best.

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