Mithral Armor and "all other Limitations"


Rules Questions

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I think this can be tied into the weapon enchantments as well. There's that one ability that lets u use the weapon and do slashing/piercing/blunt damage to it. Does that mean since u have that ability u can take a blunt weapon and enchant keen on it because u can do slashing and piercing damage with it but not anyone else? I'd say no because it's due to the weapon category and not what or how the player and their abilities can do with it.
I think that to the OP, u cannot. A medium mithril armor uses the medium armor chart for its enhancements. U do not use the light armor price to enchant the armor, so it still is a "medium" armor as far as enhancements goes.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Entryhazard wrote:

I want the best of both world for paying that stupid amount of Gold if it boils down to some lame check penalty.

Also the fighter wants Adamantine anyways as with armor training he's not concerned with mobility

Incorrect.

The fighter wants the +2 to AC more then a non-stacking DR bonus of negligible amount. Also, adamantine heavy armor is VERY expensive and not something the fighter is going to get until 10+ regardless.

If the fighter got dr that scaled and stacked with adamantine, this would be a different argument.

==Aelryinth


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Redneckdevil wrote:

I think this can be tied into the weapon enchantments as well. There's that one ability that lets u use the weapon and do slashing/piercing/blunt damage to it. Does that mean since u have that ability u can take a blunt weapon and enchant keen on it because u can do slashing and piercing damage with it but not anyone else? I'd say no because it's due to the weapon category and not what or how the player and their abilities can do with it.

I think that to the OP, u cannot. A medium mithril armor uses the medium armor chart for its enhancements. U do not use the light armor price to enchant the armor, so it still is a "medium" armor as far as enhancements goes.

The issue is unrelated. That change of weapon type depends on an ability of the character wielding it, while the armor counting as lighter is a property of the armor itself.

A more fitting example of weapon that have multiple kinds of damage is the Double Walking Stick Katana, in which each end can count as a wakizashi or a quarterstaff depending on the blades being exposed or not.

now, I'd say that an end of the weapon can enhanced with either slashing-only enchantments (e.g. keen) and bludgeon-only, and those effect would apply only when the weapon is in the opportune configuration (for example if you apply Keen the increased threat range happen only when the blade is unsheated)

Aelryinth wrote:

If the fighter got dr that scaled and stacked with adamantine, this would be a different argument.

==Aelryinth

Well, the armor master archetype does


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:


As is likely clear from Hrothdane's quote, I'm with you on this one personally, and agree on all the points in your longer post as well.

But as usual, that's just my personal opinion. It's certainly true that if you guys can get enough clicks, a FAQ would be helpful to avoid table variation, since clearly you're going to lose Defender of the Society + mithral breastplate at some tables and mithral brawling at others.

Mark, I think I'm going to have to disagree with you. From the CRB pg. 154 last three lines,

"Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light."

Now to undermine my own position, what does a mithril breastplate count as for purposes of spells that do more damage based on the armor you are wearing, or for environmental effects such as heat stroke.


Imbicatus wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Beware the clicking of FAQs, lest you be locked into an interpretation you disagree with.

Eh, it's a toss up mechanically. Either it's light armor and you can use the brawling enchantment with with it, or it's medium and you can use the Defender of the Society trait and hosteling enchantment.

I'd rather it be one or the other than have to deal with table variation, especially considering how common mithral armor is.

Or, given that you need proficiency in mithral armour's base type, there may be other distinctions (such as enchantment) related to the armour's base type.

Even though this only happens with mithral, having a fixed ruling would be useful in case someone (be it Paizo or a third party) wants to introduce similar materials - or indeed the opposite (eg, the metal includes a property that causes armour to be a step heavier for "movement and other limitations.")

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

They just should have defined it as mithral armor is treated as one class lighter for purposes of movement and left it at that.
Would clear up a lot of stuff.

==Aelryinth

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

If that was all they wanted it to do, of course.


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Correct, yet because Prof still exist it seems to make people think that it is still medium or heavy armor and then put ....limitations on it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TriOmegaZero wrote:
If that was all they wanted it to do, of course.

I think it was the only factor that occurred to them at the time.


Snuffling wrote:
Correct, yet because Prof still exist it seems to make people think that it is still medium or heavy armor and then put ....limitations on it.

The problem being that because Prof exists, there's at least one instance of the base armour still being a factor, despite the armour being mithral.

Also, despite the topic title, it doesn't say "all other limitations" - the "all" is not there. It says "movement and other limitations," without trying to enumerate those at all. This is a problem because "most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light."

It's not just mithral. Noqual (green crystal steel) has the same "one category lighter" property. And though there are no current examples (somehow, gold isn't,) it would be possible to have a material with the "one category heavier" property.

For the sake of clarifying and future-proofing, it's better that we find out how this sort of mechanic interacts with:

-Class features (eg, bard spellcasting, ranger combat)
-Traits and feats (eg, Defender of the Society)
-Armour enchantments (eg, Brawling and Bolstering)

I won't say I'd be satisfied with the answer "whatever is most beneficial to the character"; but if that turns out to be the answer then so be it.


LazarX wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
If that was all they wanted it to do, of course.
I think it was the only factor that occurred to them at the time.

I would hope the Devs knew enough about their own game system to realize that there's a lot more armor categories than the speed penalties on medium/heavy armor. Even in just the CRB, there are plenty of non-movement things that trigger based on what category of armor you're wearing: Bard Spellcasting, Ranger Combat Styles, penalties for sleeping in armor, etc.

Not to mention they should know how mithril worked in 3.5, where there was no question that it counted as a category lighter for all purposes. One would think they guys building what they advertised as "3.75" at the time would know a bit about the system they were building off of.


Another bump, just so this can be on the first page with all its FAQ requests so that Mark doesn't miss it.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
LazarX wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
If that was all they wanted it to do, of course.
I think it was the only factor that occurred to them at the time.

I would hope the Devs knew enough about their own game system to realize that there's a lot more armor categories than the speed penalties on medium/heavy armor. Even in just the CRB, there are plenty of non-movement things that trigger based on what category of armor you're wearing: Bard Spellcasting, Ranger Combat Styles, penalties for sleeping in armor, etc.

Not to mention they should know how mithril worked in 3.5, where there was no question that it counted as a category lighter for all purposes. One would think they guys building what they advertised as "3.75" at the time would know a bit about the system they were building off of.

In this kind of cases is always good to remember the Armorspikes/TWF/THF thing.

PF was made in a rush, Is very possible they didn't even think about it at the time and just copy-paste the description.


Nicos wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
LazarX wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
If that was all they wanted it to do, of course.
I think it was the only factor that occurred to them at the time.

I would hope the Devs knew enough about their own game system to realize that there's a lot more armor categories than the speed penalties on medium/heavy armor. Even in just the CRB, there are plenty of non-movement things that trigger based on what category of armor you're wearing: Bard Spellcasting, Ranger Combat Styles, penalties for sleeping in armor, etc.

Not to mention they should know how mithril worked in 3.5, where there was no question that it counted as a category lighter for all purposes. One would think they guys building what they advertised as "3.75" at the time would know a bit about the system they were building off of.

In this kind of cases is always good to remember the Armorspikes/TWF/THF thing.

PF was made in a rush, Is very possible they didn't even think about it at the time and just copy-paste the description.

True, though the fact that they though to change how proficiency worked indicates that they put some thought into how mithral should function beyond just copy-pasting the description.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ashram wrote:
Another bump, just so this can be on the first page with all its FAQ requests so that Mark doesn't miss it.

He commented early in this thread, and even answered with his interpretation of the rules (in a nonbinding sort of way).

I'd say he's aware of it.

How important he considers the question, in relation to the other pending FAQs, is the unknown variable.


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Mithral: Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving. Spell failure chances for armors and shields made from mithral are decreased by 10%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (to a minimum of 0).

How's this for the test:
Treat it as the lighter armor: what is the result?
Treat it as the heavier armor: how does this change the result?
Is the change a case of preventing you doing something, or hindering (thus limiting) you doing something? If yes, then treat as the lighter.

So:
brawling armor enchantment: The brawling ability can be applied only to light armor.
Heavier prevents the enchantment, so treat as lighter.
I could see this one going the other way.
Defender of the Society: You gain a +1 trait bonus to Armor Class when wearing medium or heavy armor.
Heavier gains a bonus. A bonus is not a limitation, so treat as heavier.
Note that it is a lighter armor that creates a limitation, this is not mentioned in Mithral's definition, so does not come into play.
Buoyant: Price light armor (+1,000 gp), shield (+1,000 gp), medium/heavy armor (+2,000 gp)
Nothing about the enchantment's effect changes based on the type. Treat as heavier.
Armored Defense: At 5th level, an armor master gains DR 1/— when wearing light armor, DR 2/— when wearing medium armor, and DR 3/— when wearing heavy armor
Your armor type does not restrict you in any way from accessing this class feature. Treat as heavier.
Getting Into and Out of Armor: The time required to don armor depends on its type
The table tells you how long the action takes. No matter what armor you have, you can do all these actions. No limitation happens, so treat as heavier.

Also note that ACP, ASF, and Max Dex are not affected as a lighter type of armor since these are all pegged to a specific armor and not an armor type.

/cevah

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”

This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Huzzah!


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Yay, FAQ !

Sovereign Court

The results seem to be mostly what the majority were ruling - except with a mild nerf to unarmed Brawlers & Sohei. (Not officially - but in comparison to what appeared to be the most common ruling.)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
a mild nerf to unarmed Brawlers & Sohei.

A Sohei should be unaffected by this. Unless I'm missing something.


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Man, I'm glad we have an official answer, but it wasn't what I was expecting it to be.

Sovereign Court

Nefreet wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
a mild nerf to unarmed Brawlers & Sohei.
A Sohei should be unaffected by this. Unless I'm missing something.

It's because they can't put Brawling on a Mithril Breastplate. It lowers their AC by two points if they still want Brawling if they're a strength build, one point of AC for a dex build.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
Man, I'm glad we have an official answer, but it wasn't what I was expecting it to be.

It was interesting to see how many ppl were divided over this.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
a mild nerf to unarmed Brawlers & Sohei.
A Sohei should be unaffected by this. Unless I'm missing something.
It's because they can't put Brawling on a Mithril Breastplate. It lowers their AC by two points if they still want Brawling if they're a strength build, one point of AC for a dex build.

Ah. I misunderstood.

I thought you meant [Unarmed Brawlers] and [Sohei], not Unarmed [Brawlers and Sohei].

I'm tired =P.


Coll! Now everyone can move to another debate. :)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I'll grab my pitchfork and torch!

(I'd only I knew how to handle improvised weapons and low-light vision)

Dark Archive

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Dango. Oh well, it's nice to have confirmation one way or the other.

Liberty's Edge

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
a mild nerf to unarmed Brawlers & Sohei.
A Sohei should be unaffected by this. Unless I'm missing something.
It's because they can't put Brawling on a Mithril Breastplate. It lowers their AC by two points if they still want Brawling if they're a strength build, one point of AC for a dex build.

Elven Chain and Celestial Armor still allow Brawling, since those are actually light armor for all purposes. Elven Chain is admittedly a point of AC behind, but Celestial Armor is great, if expensive.

Scarab Sages

So no brawling Mithral Breastplates, but Defender of the Society works. :)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”

This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.

Brawlers can already flurry in all kinds of armor, I honestly hope, that this is just a mistake.


Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”

This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.
Brawlers can already flurry in all kinds of armor, I honestly hope, that this is just a mistake.

Quickly, lets demand another FAQ.

Just like the FAQ about precision damage and concealment. It lasted for a few hours before we had another FAQ request on lighting.

Silver Crusade

Snowblind wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQed!

FAQ wrote:

Mithral armor: What exactly does it mean when it says mithral armor is counted as one category lighter for “other limitations?”

This means that mithral armor allows its wearer to use it when her own class features or special abilities demand her to wear lighter armor; in other words, the character wearing the armor is less limited. For example, a bard can cast spells in mithral breastplate without arcane spell failure, a barbarian can use her fast movement in mithral fullplate, a ranger can use his combat style in mithral fullplate, brawlers, swashbucklers, and gunslingers can keep their nimble bonus in mithral breastplate, rogues keep evasion in mithral breastplate, a brawler can flurry in mithral breastplate, characters without Endurance can sleep in mithral breastplate without becoming fatigued, and so on. It does not change the armor’s actual category, which means that you can still store a creature one size category larger in a hosteling mithral fullplate, and you can’t enhance a mithral breastplate with special abilities that require it to be light armor, like brawling (though you could enhance it with special abilities that require it to be medium armor), and so on.
Brawlers can already flurry in all kinds of armor, I honestly hope, that this is just a mistake.

Quickly, lets demand another FAQ.

Just like the FAQ about precision damage and concealment. It lasted for a few hours before we had another FAQ request on lighting.

Actually I just don't want GMs hitting players with this FAQ, to tell them that they can't flurry in full plate - even though the brawler class does not mention a limitation like this.

Of course if and when the ACG errata is released, they might just fix the brawler class to restrain it to light armor - thus increasing the percentage of characters of my characters in mithral breastplate.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Yeah, that was meant to be a shout out to the brawler's AC bonus class feature instead.

Silver Crusade

Mark Seifter wrote:
Yeah, that was meant to be a shout out to the brawler's AC bonus class feature instead.

Yeah, I kinda assumed that, since the brawler doesn't actually get the nimble class feature, just something quite similar.

In any case, thank you for answering, now at least I can link to a post by a well respected developer, if there is any trouble.

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