Dismount and 5' step?


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

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Can I both dismount and take a five foot step or does dismounting count as movement?


Yes. Dismounting is a move action, not a move. It can even be a free action with a DC 20 Ride Check.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Komoda wrote:

Yes. Dismounting is a move action, not a move. It can even be a free action with a DC 20 Ride Check.

+1

Grand Lodge

I know it's not a move, but dimounting causes me to be in a different square so is it "movement"?

Grand Lodge

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Going with "Yes" on this one as the others, Komoda is correct in noting the important difference between move and move actions.

Liberty's Edge

Claude has an interesting point. You cannot 5 ft step after running, withdrawing, charging, moving, etc. some of these are move actions. Some are something else. What they have in common is movement. Dismount may be a move equivelant action, but that's irrelevant. The movement type doesn't matter. Movement does.


claudekennilol wrote:
I know it's not a move, but dimounting causes me to be in a different square so is it "movement"?

Hmmm. This is a tough one.

When it comes to a question of; can I do _______ and 5ft. step? I usually ask, are you still in the same square? In the case of dismounting, you are have gone from occupying 4 squares (with the mount), to a single square. I guess if you still occupy one of the squares with your mount, you could then 5ft. step, but if you dismount adjacent to your mount, you have moved, so no 5ft. step.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Think of it like falling, then taking a 5ft. Step.


How much movement is required to dismount? Zero. If zero movement is used, how have you moved?


Komoda wrote:
How much movement is required to dismount? Zero. If zero movement is used, how have you moved?

If you aren't on the same spot, you've moved.


I don't think you can. Dismount changes the square you're in. That's the closest definition of "movement" we have for the sake of what prevents you from taking a five-foot step.


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Lets take a closer look at what limits you from taking a 5' step:

CRB p181 wrote:

Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table 8–2 for other move actions.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

Full-Round Action: A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below). See Table 8–2 for a list of full-round actions.
Some full-round actions do not allow you to take a 5-foot step.
Some full-round actions can be taken as standard actions, but only in situations when you are limited to performing only a standard action during your round. The descriptions of specific actions detail which actions allow this option.

CRB p186 wrote:

Move

The simplest move action is moving your speed. If you take this kind of move action during your turn, you can’t also take a 5-foot step.
Many nonstandard modes of movement are covered under this category, including climbing (up to onequarter of your speed) and swimming (up to one-quarter of your speed).
CRB p186 wrote:

Full-Round Actions

A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can’t be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
CRB p186 wrote:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks
CRB p189 wrote:

Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance. You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

So what do we have? We have context.

Despite the final bolded quote the context throughout is that you must be expending movement related action such as a "Move" move action or a Full-round action that moves you some distance (such as a Charge action).

Lets take another tack: If some ability moves you any distance are you able to take a 5' step? (example: Conjuration-Teleportation subschool ability "Shift")
Why or why not?

Now, the obvious answer is that teleportation is not moving even if you travel some distance. Most people wouldn't hesitate to state that, of course you can take a 5' step.

But, according the argument that only distance traveled counts you would not be able to take a 5' step.

Dismount places you on the ground. Due to the rules the only legal place you can occupy is outside of your mount's space. It is not intended as a form of movement and it shouldn't count as such.

It is not what the rules against taking 5' steps was intended for (see context quoting above).


If someone uses Ki Throw or Bull Rush to move you, can you take a 5' step?


Komoda wrote:

If someone uses Ki Throw or Bull Rush to move you, can you take a 5' step?

Irrelevant as those would not be happening on your turn.*

*Unless of course it happened as a readied action or as part of an AoO, in which case it becomes a somewhat obscure edge case.

However, I do agree that dismounting does not count as movement for purposes of preventing a 5' step.


Claude and Fergie got it right. Whatever you do you end up standing next to your mount.

1. you dismount next to your mount=> you moved to a different space and can't 5 five foot step

2. your dismount places you in of your mounts squares => you didn't move and can five foot step next to your mount


Dismount = Elevation change

Dark Archive

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I disaprove. I don't want people getting ten feet away with a 5' and dismount, especially after I move a reach monster right next to them. Sometimes the mount could provide cover and negate provoking an attack of opportunity but 10' is not 5'.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, what if it was a small rider, on a medium mount?


How about a Huge rider on a Colossal mount? They're presumably getting around 15 feet of movement for free...


Matthew Downie wrote:
How about a Huge rider on a Colossal mount? They're presumably getting around 15 feet of movement for free...

Im inclined to consider it movement unless you wind up in your mounts space somehow. (riding a big mount, having a very small character etc)


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

So Sorcererini takes a 5ft step to get out of an enemy's reach, then tries to cast dimension door but can't because he's already moved this round? RAW, I suppose that's true, but I don't think any of us would impose that at a non-PFS table.

Dismounting... definitely an edge condition. It's not unlike standing up, where you're physically moving but that's not really your intent. The relocation isn't so much the point of the player's action, as the result of no longer being allowed to share their mount's space.

Of course, mounted combat is all kinds of wonky. If the horse takes a 5ft step, can you still dismount? The union/separation of rider and mount for actions is sort of unrealistic.


So I guess you also would not allow someone to 5' Step and mount?


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Komoda wrote:
So I guess you also would not allow someone to 5' Step and mount?

You who? You didn't quote anyone so nobody knows who you're talking to.


You = anyone that has a problem with dismounting and taking a 5' step.

Grand Lodge

I was asking because I was considering the quickest way to get into flanking with my hunter/AC (before having pack flanking, that is). Mount approaches, I dismount and end up diagonal away from my mount, then 5' step around behind it. Seems like it's cheating.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

claudekennilol wrote:
I was asking because I was considering the quickest way to get into flanking with my hunter/AC (before having pack flanking, that is). Mount approaches, I dismount and end up diagonal away from my mount, then 5' step around behind it. Seems like it's cheating.

I would say that if you yourself feel uncomfortable with this as a gray area of the rules, then simply choose not to do it. Or discuss it with your GM and decide if it's the sort of thing you want in your game.


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claudekennilol wrote:
I was asking because I was considering the quickest way to get into flanking with my hunter/AC (before having pack flanking, that is). Mount approaches, I dismount and end up diagonal away from my mount, then 5' step around behind it. Seems like it's cheating.

I think you've illustrated a very good argument AGAINST taking a 5' Step after dismounting. I think, arguments about RAW aside, it was not the devs intention to allow Auto-Flanking for everyone dismounting in combat.

You can only Use a 5' Step if you're in the square where you began your turn - other uses to gain combat advantages, such as flanking with your own mount are at the very least wonky and therefore should probably be discounted.

Grand Lodge

ryric wrote:
claudekennilol wrote:
I was asking because I was considering the quickest way to get into flanking with my hunter/AC (before having pack flanking, that is). Mount approaches, I dismount and end up diagonal away from my mount, then 5' step around behind it. Seems like it's cheating.
I would say that if you yourself feel uncomfortable with this as a gray area of the rules, then simply choose not to do it. Or discuss it with your GM and decide if it's the sort of thing you want in your game.

I wasn't planning on it. I feel that dismounting would qualify for "movement". That being said, to go with Komoda's point, I wouldn't have any qualms with taking a five-foot step and then mounting, even though that would qualify as the same "movement" as dismounting.


Gauss wrote:
lots of rules

Your argument appears to be that despite several instances of the rules explicitly saying you can't take a five foot step during a round when you move, you should be able to take a five foot step during a round when you move because the clear RAW are obviously not RAI.


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claudekennilol wrote:
I was asking because I was considering the quickest way to get into flanking with my hunter/AC (before having pack flanking, that is). Mount approaches, I dismount and end up diagonal away from my mount, then 5' step around behind it. Seems like it's cheating.

You could dismount then have the mount 5' step.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Komoda wrote:
So I guess you also would not allow someone to 5' Step and mount?

That's correct.


Komoda wrote:
So I guess you also would not allow someone to 5' Step and mount?

I think i would. I don't think that 5 feet prevents all movement the way movement prevents a 5 foot step.

Shadow Lodge

I don't think that's correct. The rule doesn't seem to care about whether the movement takes place before or after the step:

5 ft step wrote:
You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can't take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Interesting.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Komoda wrote:
So I guess you also would not allow someone to 5' Step and mount?

I think i would. I don't think that 5 feet prevents all movement the way movement prevents a 5 foot step.

So would you allow a typical human to take a 5' Step and then move 30'? This would allow him a total move of 35', which essentially extends his "move rate" by 5'. Are you OK with this?

I bet not.

The rule is not specific about the sequence of the actions, it merely says "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement" and "you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance". No sequence, no order, no timing mentioned.


Mounting/dismounting is not 'performing movement'. You don't use up any of your base speed to mount or dismount, you use a move action.

Someone with extra movement can't repeatedly mount/dismount until they use up their 60' of movement. Mounting/dismounting in difficult terrain doesn't take twice your movement.

The fact that you end up in a different square than you started does not mean mounting is 'performing movement' any more than being affected by a bull rush means you can't 5' step.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

But you are moving. You're moving vertically off the mount, and horizontally to the nearest square adjacent to the mount.

You can still take a standard action to move, but the 5 foot step is precluded.


LazarX wrote:

But you are moving. You're moving vertically off the mount, and horizontally to the nearest square adjacent to the mount.

You can still take a standard action to move, but the 5 foot step is precluded.

This.


You are also 'moving' when you get bull rushed.

What you aren't doing in either case is 'performing movement' which uses 5' increments from your base speed.

Someone with a 0' base speed (for whatever reason) can still mount/dismount if they have move actions.

Words have different meaning in different contexts.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
_Ozy_ wrote:

You are also 'moving' when you get bull rushed.

What you aren't doing in either case is 'performing movement' which uses 5' increments from your base speed.

Someone with a 0' base speed (for whatever reason) can still mount/dismount if they have move actions.

Words have different meaning in different contexts.

Being moved is a hell of a lot different than making movements of your own accord.


So what? The rules quoted don't differeniate at all. So either you can't 5' step when bull rushed, or you can 5' step when you mount/dismount.


LazarX, going by your logic ("moving vertically off the mount and horizontally to the nearest square adjacent to the mount") teleportation counts as movement and thus would prevent 5' steps.

People are ignoring the other qualifiers in the 5' step rules which indicate that the movement that prevents a 5' step is part of a "move" move action or a full-round action that involves moving.

The rule against a 5' step is not 'if you travel any distance via any means'.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Expect table variance.

At my table, your are only moving when you use a move action or use an ability that says "move x feet in a direction".

If you have not moved, you may 5 ft step. If you have moved, you may not 5 ft step.


Gauss wrote:
LazarX, going by your logic ("moving vertically off the mount and horizontally to the nearest square adjacent to the mount") teleportation counts as movement and thus would prevent 5' steps.

That's completely correct. If you teleport then you do not get a 5' move. You point this out as if it's a "gotcha" but it's clearly evident from the rules and something that I would think isn't controversial.

Gauss wrote:


People are ignoring the other qualifiers in the 5' step rules which indicate that the movement that prevents a 5' step is part of a "move" move action or a full-round action that involves moving.

The rule against a 5' step is not 'if you travel any distance via any means'.

The rule we're talking about is this: "You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance."

So it is almost explicitly what you said it is not.


_Ozy_ wrote:

You are also 'moving' when you get bull rushed.

What you aren't doing in either case is 'performing movement' which uses 5' increments from your base speed.

Someone with a 0' base speed (for whatever reason) can still mount/dismount if they have move actions.

Words have different meaning in different contexts.

Bull rush: Yes, you are moving but you are not the agent of the movement. To me, there's a difference. If you want to argue that it's the same, it's a reasonable interpretation of the rules and I need to do more bull-rushes.

Performing movement: The rule doesn't require that you "perform movement" just that "you move any distance". To me, that means "you take any actions which cause you to change location"

0' base speed: Yes. Someone with a 0' base speed can mount/dismount. They also can take a 5' move. They can't do both in the same round.


DM_Blake wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Komoda wrote:
So I guess you also would not allow someone to 5' Step and mount?

I think i would. I don't think that 5 feet prevents all movement the way movement prevents a 5 foot step.

So would you allow a typical human to take a 5' Step and then move 30'? This would allow him a total move of 35', which essentially extends his "move rate" by 5'. Are you OK with this?

I bet not.

The rule is not specific about the sequence of the actions, it merely says "You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement" and "you can't take a 5-foot step in the same round that you move any distance". No sequence, no order, no timing mentioned.

Hmmm true. I'd probably allow the horse to shuffle into the characters space. Otherwise how would you do zoro leaping onto the saddle from the lady's window?


Agent of movement? Where is that anywhere in the rules? The rules you are quoting say 'you move any distance' there is nothing about 'agents' in any of that.

If, as you say, any sort of movement qualifies, then a bull rush prevents a 5' step, agent or not.

On the other hand, if you use the word 'movement' in the context of expending base speed to travel through squares, then things begin to make sense again. If you're not using your base speed to move, then you're not 'performing movement' in the context of the 5' step.

Things that don't expend movement don't count, that includes being bull-rushed, dismounting, teleporting, or even standing on the deck of a moving ship.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

As I said, I see it much like falling.


You know - the more I think about it, the more I think we're getting this entire thing wrong and the entire thing is moot. Why are we assuming that dismounting puts you in a different square instead of temporarily sharing the same square with your mount? Seems like it should be the same square and then you could either 5' move out or use your move action to move out. If you didn't have a move action, you'd follow the "accidentally ending your movement in an illegal space" rule.

Am I missing a rule here?

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