Dismount and 5' step?


Rules Questions

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Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
James Risner wrote:

Take a move action to pull something out of a bag.

Provoke from a Large creature who hits you and has Grab and successfully grabs you.
You are moved 5 ft to be adjacent.
You make a standard action to break the grab.
May you 5 ft step away?

Yes


claudekennilol wrote:
Can I both dismount and take a five foot step or does dismounting count as movement?

I would say yes and no, under certain circumstances. Since dismounting a horse can be done using a ride check and a DC 20 check makes it a free action. This to me, tells me that dismounting is not a move action. Thus, you could take a five foot step.

Same thing if your dismount is classified as a swift action. The only time I would say no is if your dismounting of the mount would for some reason or another, regularly be a move action.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Anguish wrote:

The Core Rulebook basically shows us that there are two ways you can use your move action; you can move (up to your speed) or you can do something else. Table 8-2 lists the examples of something else, of which mount/dismount is one. The fact that you are relocated doesn't change that you have not "moved". If you had, you wouldn't have been able to dismount, because that's a different type of "move action" that doesn't include getting-off-your-mount.

I wouldn't focus on "no actual distance"... I'd focus on the word right before it: "move". Mounting/dismounting consumes 0 of your move speed. Thus yes, you can 5ft then mount, or dismount then 5ft. Why? Because you have not moved... you have mounted/dismounted, which is a different thing, like standing up.

AMEN.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that when you're mounted, you're considered as occupying ANY of the squares covered by the mount.

PRD: "For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat."

So dismounting does not involve a move, I agree. It is merely the separation of a united mass into two separate beings.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I have performed a successful dismount, with a 5ft Step, in real life.

Wait, I forgot we were talking about horses.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Anguish wrote:

The Core Rulebook basically shows us that there are two ways you can use your move action; you can move (up to your speed) or you can do something else. Table 8-2 lists the examples of something else, of which mount/dismount is one. The fact that you are relocated doesn't change that you have not "moved". If you had, you wouldn't have been able to dismount, because that's a different type of "move action" that doesn't include getting-off-your-mount.

I wouldn't focus on "no actual distance"... I'd focus on the word right before it: "move". Mounting/dismounting consumes 0 of your move speed. Thus yes, you can 5ft then mount, or dismount then 5ft. Why? Because you have not moved... you have mounted/dismounted, which is a different thing, like standing up.

AMEN.

I think a lot of people are forgetting that when you're mounted, you're considered as occupying ANY of the squares covered by the mount.

PRD: "For simplicity, assume that you share your mount's space during combat."

So dismounting does not involve a move, I agree. It is merely the separation of a united mass into two separate beings.

Those opposed to the 5' Step have a legitimate point. When you dismount and step, you are 10' from the square you started in. I don't have a problem with it, but it is not illogical to rule either way.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Komoda wrote:
Those opposed to the 5' Step have a legitimate point. When you dismount and step, you are 10' from the square you started in. I don't have a problem with it, but it is not illogical to rule either way.

We know. What's going on, however, is that this is basically a question of language, not a question of RAW. Both sides are parsing the language differently.

Now, amusingly, I have come up with a decent counter to my own examples. My premise is that there is precisely one "move action" defined in the book that is moving. It's literally called "move". My attempt to answer this states that if you don't "move", you don't "move". Other actions that cause you to be in a different square aren't "move" as the book defines it. That interpretation is clean and allows sensible things like a 5ft step followed by dimension door. The problem I hadn't thought of is that charge and bull rush, and likely others, are not "move", and I think we'd all universally disallow 5ft steps in conjunction with them.

My problem with the viewpoint that you can't 5ft after a dismount is that it's kind of punitive. If you follow that interpretation, so many other sensible action combinations become disallowed as well. You're 5ft up a ladder and a bad monster sticks its head over the ledge above you. On your turn you let go of the ladder as a free action, falling 5ft and not taking damage. You've literally taken no actions but a free action. Can you take a 5ft step? It absolutely feels wrong to say "no". You've got your whole action economy left but "no"? Well, dismount & 5ft feels the same way to me. What you've done is as a move-action/free action, you've declared you're not able to share squares with your mount any more. As an automatic consequence of that, you end up in a square not shared with your mount. You're not trying to move. You're changing the square-sharing state. So... to call this movement feels like deliberately interpreting the rules in a harsh manner because... reasons.

As usual, when it comes to rules questions that are really NOT defined, and it comes down to parsing the language, I choose to decide what result I want on the basis of what makes sense to me (not necessarily what is optimal for me), and then interpret the language to support that conclusion.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Komoda wrote:

Those opposed to the 5' Step have a legitimate point. When you dismount and step, you are 10' from the square you started in. I don't have a problem with it, but it is not illogical to rule either way.

I kinda disagree. The dismount is like sliding off the back of the horse into the nearest legal square available. You're on TOP of the horse, not IN it. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, so the rider needs to FALL in the nearest legal square (of his choice...)

Swinging your right leg over the horse back is not a use of your land speed. It is a decoupling effect. Similar to how a grappler would let go of its grapplee as a free action if he wants to, thus losing the grappled condition for both the grappler and grapplee.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
The dismount is like sliding off the back of the horse into the nearest legal square available. You're on TOP of the horse, not IN it. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, so the rider needs to FALL in the nearest legal square (of his choice...)

You get to choose from ten squares, as much as 20 feet away from one another on the diagonals, without provoking, as a free action. That's a lot better than a forced move would normally imply.


Matthew Downie wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
The dismount is like sliding off the back of the horse into the nearest legal square available. You're on TOP of the horse, not IN it. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, so the rider needs to FALL in the nearest legal square (of his choice...)
You get to choose from ten squares, as much as 20 feet away from one another on the diagonals, without provoking, as a free action. That's a lot better than a forced move would normally imply.

To expand upon that, a 'normal' 5' step allows you to choose from 8 squares. Dismounting and 5' stepping allows you to choose from 20 different squares, up to 35' apart.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Komoda wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
The dismount is like sliding off the back of the horse into the nearest legal square available. You're on TOP of the horse, not IN it. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, so the rider needs to FALL in the nearest legal square (of his choice...)
You get to choose from ten squares, as much as 20 feet away from one another on the diagonals, without provoking, as a free action. That's a lot better than a forced move would normally imply.
To expand upon that, a 'normal' 5' step allows you to choose from 8 squares. Dismounting and 5' stepping allows you to choose from 20 different squares, up to 35' apart.

your somewhat assuming the mount is a solid immobile block of cheese - it's not. the rider tugs on the reins and rotate the horse's ass around before he dismounts. Voila


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
Komoda wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
The dismount is like sliding off the back of the horse into the nearest legal square available. You're on TOP of the horse, not IN it. Two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time, so the rider needs to FALL in the nearest legal square (of his choice...)
You get to choose from ten squares, as much as 20 feet away from one another on the diagonals, without provoking, as a free action. That's a lot better than a forced move would normally imply.
To expand upon that, a 'normal' 5' step allows you to choose from 8 squares. Dismounting and 5' stepping allows you to choose from 20 different squares, up to 35' apart.
your somewhat assuming the mount is a solid immobile block of cheese - it's not. the rider tugs on the reins and rotate the horse's ass around before he dismounts. Voila

By that analogy, wouldn't it then make more sense to say that a dismounted character continues to occupy the same space as the horse, and may then choose to 5-foot step to a new space, or make a regular move to a new space, or alternatively decide to end his movement, thus making the space he occupies illegal, forcing him to a new legal space?

If a PC made a double move through a 10 foot wide tunnel, and his horse was 25 feet away, you wouldn't force him to end his first move action at 25 feet. Nor would you auto-eject him to the 35 foot space at the end of his first move, allowing him to move a total of 65 feet.

So, why are we auto-ejecting him from the horse's space at the end of a dismount action, while he still has potential movement left?

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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Found this under the Action Types section in the Combat Chapter.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

It seems to support the interpretation that you cannot take a 5-foot step if you move any actual distance in a round.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Dude, we've been over that a million times now.

'move' in that context means using your speed.

Otherwise you can't 5' step after being bull rushed, or teleporting, or falling, or one of any number of things where 'you move any actual distance'.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:

Found this under the Action Types section in the Combat Chapter.

You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.

It seems to support the interpretation that you cannot take a 5-foot step if you move any actual distance in a round.

Golarion is moving. RAW, you cannot take a 5ft step.

I recant my retraction of my refutation of what you're posting, Ravingdork. Charge and Bull Rush both specifically say that as part of their action, you're moving.

Amusingly, Mount/Dismount does not.

Mount/Dismount a Steed
Mounting or dismounting a steed requires a move action.
Fast Mount or Dismount: You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check. If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. You can’t attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.

Ride
Fast Mount or Dismount: You can attempt to mount or dismount from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as a free action, provided that you still have a move action available that round. If you fail the Ride check, mounting or dismounting is a move action. You can’t use fast mount or dismount on a mount more than one size category larger than yourself.
Action: Varies. Mounting or dismounting normally is a move action. Other checks are a move action, a free action, or no action at all, as noted above.

In fact, I cannot find the text in Core that describes this whole "end up beside your mount" concept. It seems reasonable, but I haven't found the specific text people are referencing.

RD, to "move", is a specific thing. There is a move action call "move", which involves moving. There is text in Run, Charge, and Bull Rush that involves moving. Other actions such as Stand Up and Mount/Dismount lack text that involves moving. So far it would seem that the authors went out of their way to tell you when you are moving and when you are not moving, ans so far it seems Mount/Dismount is not moving.


I also think that the 5-foot step you get from dismounting is better than a 5-foot step you get from a forced movement or from teleporting into a wall. The 5-foot set you suffer from occupying an ilegal space is Force/Passive. The GM could even make the choice for you in which space you'll end up on. The 5-foot set from dismount is Facultative/Active, it allows you to choose in which square you want to end up, much like regular movement.

I still think that the 5-foot step is there to simbolize the minimum amount of movement a character can make during a round, even if he's doing a full round action, and today it's an important part of combat tactics.

If by dismouting you were entitle to something "just as good" as a 5-foot setp, then you should not get another.

But, depending on the situation, it may be ok, on a case by case basis.


_Ozy_ wrote:

Dude, we've been over that a million times now.

'move' in that context means using your speed.

That is your opinion. The text says what it says, you can interpret it how you like, but your opinions carry no more weight then anyone else.

EDIT: 216 posts, and only 6 people other then me hit the FAQ button? Let's get more FAQ clicking going on this one!


Yeah, it's my opinion. But he just repeated something that had been stated many pages back. Also, I think my opinion is backed up pretty well by RAW.

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