@Komoda If a creature was intelligent enough and capable of being friendly and was not 3 or more sizes bigger than you I would say you can move through the square(s) it occupies.
You have it backwards. It is always a move action. A skill check allows you to reduce it to a free action.[wiley coyote] 5 foot steps out over a cliff. Nope! Can't move anywhere, sorry! [/qile coyote]Hence why he stands there in the air for 6 secs because he has to wait til the next round before he can fall :-)This is win.
Guass, I've got to disagree, just because you can take free actions as part of a move, doesn't mean you can mount or dismount during a move. Mounting is its own move action. If you make a check then you get to reduce it to a free action. But you can't be moving and attempt to mount in the hope that you make the check because you have to assume you're spending a move action to do it.
You may be able to convince a GM (and this would be a very sound house rule) that if you have a +19 ride, then you could always do it for free in combat, but without that it still costs a move action up front.
So since it takes a move action, it can't be done within a move action. Much as CountofUndolpho pointed out.
Then you do not understand how mounting works. It is ALWAYS a free action if you try the check. It THEN becomes a Move action if you fail the check. That is how it is written.
Thus: You are moving, and you perform a free action works just fine.
Then it becomes a move action, doesn't mean you were not using a free action during your move action.Fast Mount or Dismount: You can attempt to mount or dismount from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as a free action, provided that you still have a move action available that round. If you fail the Ride check, mounting or dismounting is a move action. You can’t use fast mount or dismount on a mount more than one size category larger than yourself.You would be making a house rule to prevent someone from doing this.
The skill states that it is a free action and if you fail the check THEN it is a move action.
Thus, it is not a move action that is reduced to a free action.
I have been in error and inadvertently caused confusion.
Creature: A creature is an active participant in the story or world. This includes PCs, NPCs, and monsters.
I should have said a horse was an animal not a character, apologies.
But Gauss, under combat it clearly says that you must have the ability to complete a move action to attempt Fast Dismount. I never saw it before this thread either.
Mount/Dismount a Steed
Mounting or dismounting a steed requires a move action. Fast Mount or Dismount: You can mount or dismount as a free action with a DC 20 Ride check. If you fail the check, mounting or dismounting is a move action instead. You can’t attempt a fast mount or fast dismount unless you
can perform the mount or dismount as a move action in the current round.
It is not under the skill or the mounted combat rules. It is in the dumbest place possible, but it is clearly there.
Count, so if your ally ends up with a 2 intelligence, he can no longer let you through his square? Is a 3 high enough?
I understand how this might "feel right" to you, but you must realize that it is not supported by the rules anywhere.
It is a free action that becomes a move action if you fail the check. I do not have it backwards because that is what the skill states.
If it is always a Free action why do you need to have a move action available to attempt it?
Komoda, and how does that change it from being a free action? It just means you must be able to perform a move action (which you can).
CountofUndolpho, because if you fail the check it is a move action. But at the moment you attempt it it is a free action. As a result, you can use it during another action. (Note: I had edited my statement when you copied it, there is a bit of a different statement now. LOL)
@Komoda 3 intelligence gives the ability to understand speech and to gain Feats other than animal ones. So I assume it allows them to understand they have to let you past.
From Animal Type
An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture
And whilst Creature is used as a general term (sorry) character isn't.
You may not be able to.
You can clearly Fast Mount > Move > Move.
But based on that line, you can never Move > Move > Fast Dismount as you don't have another move action left to convert the free action to should you fail.
Allowing people to do it if they autopass (after accounting for all current circumstances) seems logical, but I don't know that it follows the letter of RAW.
CountofUndolpho, so we agree that there is nothing about dismounting into a square that your mount is in if it can allow you to "pass through" and then it moves out, correct?
The only question now is which ones can, which doesn't matter for this discussion. We do agree that, inherently, there is nothing else stopping the character from dismounting into the same square it started in and then taking a 5' step.
CountofUndolphoBut at the moment you attempt it it is a free action.
"You can attempt to mount or dismount ... as a free action" which to me means it isn't until you have succeeded, semantics I know but it's the succeeding at the attempt that makes it Free. Otherwise you dismount as normal.
A ride check to stay in the saddle is "no action". Not a free action, no action.
A ride check to soft fall "does not take an action".
So, if instead of dismounting, I choose to voluntarily fail the stay in the saddle check, and manage to make the soft fall check, I have literally used no action so far in this round, at a DC 5 lower than the fast dismount.
I'll take my 5-foot step now, if you don't mind.
Komoda, I think we are discussing different things.
At no point am I saying that they do not need a move action to be available in case you fail the free action.
What I am saying is that, at the time the mount attempt is being made, it is a free action that is only a move action if they fail.
Because it is a free action it falls under the rules for free actions which states that you can use a free action during another action.
Crusader, I was wondering about that myself. Then actually, you would automatically move to a legal square, and THEN take your 5' step.
I think it is cheesy, but it might fit RAW.
Not if you pass the check.
CountofUndolpho, so we agree that there is nothing about dismounting into a square that your mount is in if it can allow you to "pass through" and then it moves out, correct?
The only question now is which ones can, which doesn't matter for this discussion. We do agree that, inherently, there is nothing else stopping the character from dismounting into the same square it started in and then taking a 5' step.
No I'm afraid we don't, you can't deliberately occupy the same square as a creature big enough to be your mount at the end of a specific move action.
No there is a mount in the way. Nothing has changed. If it was another character giving me a piggy back I couldn't stay in the same place and get off his shoulders. I would have to finish in an adjacent square.
Gauss,
OHHHHHHHHHHHH!
Yeah, I agree with you there.
CountofUndolpho, so we agree that there is nothing about dismounting into a square that your mount is in if it can allow you to "pass through" and then it moves out, correct?
The only question now is which ones can, which doesn't matter for this discussion. We do agree that, inherently, there is nothing else stopping the character from dismounting into the same square it started in and then taking a 5' step.
No I'm afraid we don't, you can't deliberately occupy the same square as a creature big enough to be your mount at the end of a specific move action.
No there is a mount in the way. Nothing has changed. If it was another character giving me a piggy back I couldn't stay in the same place and get off his shoulders. I would have to finish in an adjacent square.
It is not at the end of a specific move action, it is "during" the mounts move action. It is moving out and the rider is staying put.
At anytime your friend was carrying you, you could let go, ie, you stop moving and he continues.
Edit: Kind of like riding a skate board. You put one foot down, and pick up the other one. You didn't "jump" off the board, you are now standing where your board was a second ago and the board continues to move.
A ride check to stay in the saddle is "no action". Not a free action, no action.
A ride check to soft fall "does not take an action".
So, if instead of dismounting, I choose to voluntarily fail the stay in the saddle check, and manage to make the soft fall check, I have literally used no action so far in this round, at a DC 5 lower than the fast dismount.
I'll take my 5-foot step now, if you don't mind.
Context - "Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action."
Otherwise you are saying I do a Fast dismount but call it something else
It is not at the end of a specific move action, it is "during" the mounts move action. It is moving out and the rider is staying put.At anytime your friend was carrying you, you could let go, ie, you stop moving and he continues.
Edit: Kind of like riding a skate board. You put one foot down, and pick up the other one. You didn't "jump" off the board, you are now standing where your board was a second ago and the board continues to move.
"Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move"
Ask Christopher Reeve what it's like getting off a moving horse...
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You may not be able to.
You can clearly Fast Mount > Move > Move.
But based on that line, you can never Move > Move > Fast Dismount as you don't have another move action left to convert the free action to should you fail.
Allowing people to do it if they autopass (after accounting for all current circumstances) seems logical, but I don't know that it follows the letter of RAW.
In this case, the mount is one doing "Move > Move" so you, as a PC, still have an entire turn's worth of actions left (with the caveat that you can no longer full attack unless you have mounted skirmisher).
A ride check to stay in the saddle is "no action". Not a free action, no action.
A ride check to soft fall "does not take an action".
So, if instead of dismounting, I choose to voluntarily fail the stay in the saddle check, and manage to make the soft fall check, I have literally used no action so far in this round, at a DC 5 lower than the fast dismount.
I'll take my 5-foot step now, if you don't mind.
I know you can voluntarily fail saving throws, but I'm not aware of anything that lets you voluntarily fail skill checks, is there something for this?
Komoda, I think we are discussing different things.
At no point am I saying that they do not need a move action to be available in case you fail the free action.
What I am saying is that, at the time the mount attempt is being made, it is a free action that is only a move action if they fail.
Because it is a free action it falls under the rules for free actions which states that you can use a free action during another action.
But you couldn't do a Fast mount attempt halfway through a move action in case you fail....
Or could you if you only made the attempt during your first move action?
succeed Hooray! rest of move and then next action
Fail boo! End of first move and second one is used up mounting or dismounting.
Sounds ok to me
I am talking about the beginning of the round, before any actions take place. Yes, all spent action economy always changes what you can do.
Christopher Reeve's horse refused to jump during a competition. Why would you bring that up?
Komoda, I think we are discussing different things.
At no point am I saying that they do not need a move action to be available in case you fail the free action.
What I am saying is that, at the time the mount attempt is being made, it is a free action that is only a move action if they fail.
Because it is a free action it falls under the rules for free actions which states that you can use a free action during another action.
But you couldn't do a Fast mount attempt halfway through a move action in case you fail....
Or could you if you only made the attempt during your first move action?
succeed Hooray! rest of move and then next action
Fail boo! End of first move and second one is used up mounting or dismounting.Sounds ok to me
Correct, you can only do this during your first move action (you need the second in case you fail).
A ride check to stay in the saddle is "no action". Not a free action, no action.
A ride check to soft fall "does not take an action".
So, if instead of dismounting, I choose to voluntarily fail the stay in the saddle check, and manage to make the soft fall check, I have literally used no action so far in this round, at a DC 5 lower than the fast dismount.
I'll take my 5-foot step now, if you don't mind.
Context - "Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action."
Otherwise you are saying I do a Fast dismount but call it something else
Getting a horse to rear is as easy as [pun]falling off of a horse[/pun]. You can always voluntarily fail a skill check. I don't see the problem.
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Getting a horse to rear is as easy as [pun]falling off of a horse[/pun]. You can always voluntarily fail a skill check. I don't see the problem.A ride check to stay in the saddle is "no action". Not a free action, no action.
A ride check to soft fall "does not take an action".
So, if instead of dismounting, I choose to voluntarily fail the stay in the saddle check, and manage to make the soft fall check, I have literally used no action so far in this round, at a DC 5 lower than the fast dismount.
I'll take my 5-foot step now, if you don't mind.
Context - "Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action."
Otherwise you are saying I do a Fast dismount but call it something else
Can you voluntarily fail a skill check? I know you can voluntarily fail saving throws, but off the top of my head I don't remember seeing that for skill checks.
Can you voluntarily fail a skill check? I know you can voluntarily fail saving throws, but off the top of my head I don't remember seeing that for skill checks.Getting a horse to rear is as easy as [pun]falling off of a horse[/pun]. You can always voluntarily fail a skill check. I don't see the problem.A ride check to stay in the saddle is "no action". Not a free action, no action.
A ride check to soft fall "does not take an action".
So, if instead of dismounting, I choose to voluntarily fail the stay in the saddle check, and manage to make the soft fall check, I have literally used no action so far in this round, at a DC 5 lower than the fast dismount.
I'll take my 5-foot step now, if you don't mind.
Context - "Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action."
Otherwise you are saying I do a Fast dismount but call it something else
Skill checks are voluntary. You fail them by not attempting them. Otherwise, you have ridiculous situations.
DM: The giant eagle swoops down and claws you.
Player: I let go of the mountainside to drop into the lake below.
DM: Ummm... your climb skill is too high. You can't not climb.
That part is true. What you can do is take non-moving actions while your mount is moving.
You can even cast a spell and have the mount do a Move, Move.
In addition, you can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while a mount is moving.
Under Humanoid it states "d8 Hit Die, or by character class"
In the rules the word character is used to define anything that is normally able to act of its own volition.Where?
I don't mean the rules state that. The rules do not define character. That means we use the common definition of the word. So a character in a story, movie, play, cartoon, whatever. So when the rules talk about characters they are referring to any 'thing' that is able to act in the story.
You can. Else if someone would attack of opportunity you with Bull Rush Strike or Punishing Kick it would block you from 5ft step wich does not make sense.
The very nature of mounts in the game is intended for movement, and since you gain this free 5-foot step when you dismount, it would not be unreasonable to not allow another 5-foot step in conjunction with it.
If you feel the player is using this "double 5-foot sep" to get an unintended advantage of the game mechanics, like dismounting and flanking a 5ft square enemy with your mount, then I think you should not allow it.
The very nature of mounts in the game is intended for movement, and since you gain this free 5-foot step when you dismount, it would not be unreasonable to not allow another 5-foot step in conjunction with it.
If you feel the player is using this "double 5-foot sep" to get an unintended advantage of the game mechanics, like dismounting and flanking a 5ft square enemy with your mount, then I think you should not allow it.
On the other hand, if you're playing "Game the System", then YES! You GO, girl!
Game what system? It is only required because of the abstract nature of riding a mount. Clearly a horse and a human can fit in a 10' x 10' area. Horse stalls are often only 10' x 12'.
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In this case, the mount is one doing "Move > Move" so you, as a PC, still have an entire turn's worth of actions left (with the caveat that you can no longer full attack unless you have mounted skirmisher).You may not be able to.
You can clearly Fast Mount > Move > Move.
But based on that line, you can never Move > Move > Fast Dismount as you don't have another move action left to convert the free action to should you fail.
Allowing people to do it if they autopass (after accounting for all current circumstances) seems logical, but I don't know that it follows the letter of RAW.
I can't seem to find an FAQ about it, but I swear there was a ruling that mounted combat can't be used to give you more action economy than you otherwise would, basically so you can't move > move > dismount > move > move.
Also you can't full move and use Mounted Skirmisher.
If you can find anything that supports this it'd be much appreciated.
I think he might mean move, move as a full move, which then he would be correct.
Clearly a horse and a human can fit in a 10' x 10' area. Horse stalls are often only 10' x 12'.
Let's say this horse has a bite attack, it's beeing flanked by an orc and a gnoll, and it bites the orc. If a human beside the horse is sharing one of the squares the horse is occupying, how will the horse turn to face and bite the gnoll without moving the human from his square?
All creatures occupy squared spaces to allow them to turn around freely in their space, because normally we don't designate the sides we're facing in the combat rules.
The rules ask us to not allow two creatures to occupy the same space/squares if possible, to simplify things and mostly not having to deal with grapple rules. You could say the horse is occupying a 2 squares (5x10) and you're standing beside him, but in this case it would be better if the horse didn't turn, and it would still not be the same thing as two creatures occupying the same space/squares.
Even if the horse itself occupies only 2 squares, you'd still be getting a free 5-foot step when dismounting from it. What matters is that you should not be getting an extra 5-foot set just because you've decided to use a mount to move.
I am familiar with why all creatures take up square areas now, unlike 3.0. It was a total nightmare before.
You can't take a 5' Step in a round that you are using your mount to move. I am pretty sure everyone agrees with that part. At least, I hope they do.
I think we also all agree that you can go from prone or sitting to standing and still take a 5' Step.
Where is it an "extra" movement? It is just part of the game. Normally, it is a move action. The only, "extra" part is that it can be done as a free action with a high enough skill check. It is easier to get down off a horse than it is to stand up from prone. But it is the system that requires it be in a different square, if it even does.
That is why I advocate for moving your mount out of the square as you dismount. So basically, the mount moves out from under you, much like the skateboarding example I posted earlier. Then you are in the square you started from, and there should be no issue with taking a 5' Step at this point.
To be clear, I don't have a problem with the 5' Step after or before a dismount/mount. My last paragraph is for those that do. That said, if someone were to try and move 30' by mounting, dismounting and taking a 5' Step, all on angles, in one of my games, I would kick them out of my house.
Following strict raw, if the mounts were lined up correctly, one could travel around the world in less than six seconds and still make a full attack when they got back. THAT is gaming the system!
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Following strict raw, if the mounts were lined up correctly, one could travel around the world in less than six seconds and still make a full attack when they got back. THAT is gaming the system!
Of course you could, if you had a GM who conveniently ignored the rule that says GMs can and should limit the amount of free actions a character can take.
That is just an option. It might be the GM that does it. It isn't ALWAYS the players that are ridiculous.
Following strict raw, if the mounts were lined up correctly, one could travel around the world in less than six seconds and still make a full attack when they got back. THAT is gaming the system!
Shen Long Mount, here I come!
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Or medium mounted characters with the Undersized Mount feat.Small mounted characters are a sight to behold.I'll allow it in my game.
Why would i further gimp a poor sod that failed his wisdom check and elected to go for a mounted combat build?
and each of those would gain a whopping 5 foot adjustment by allowing 5 foot step in addition to a dismount Ride skill check... big deal
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If you have a move speed of 0ft, can you dismount?
If you have a move speed of 5ft and a Huge mount, can you dismount?
If you have a move speed of 5ft and your mount is standing on difficult terrain, can you dismount?
If you are a slowed halfling wearing full plate, and your mount is standing in difficult terrain, can you dismount?
If you are a slowed halfling wearing full plate, and you are standing in difficult terrain, can you mount?
This is all playing around, but that last example really underlines what's going on here. That halfling has a move speed of 5ft, and leaving a square of difficult terrain would cost 10ft of his/her speed. Yet mount/dismount is silent on the topic of speed. It just does what it says it does, because it's a specific action.
Move Action: A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table 8–2 for other move actions.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
The Core Rulebook basically shows us that there are two ways you can use your move action; you can move (up to your speed) or you can do something else. Table 8-2 lists the examples of something else, of which mount/dismount is one. The fact that you are relocated doesn't change that you have not "moved". If you had, you wouldn't have been able to dismount, because that's a different type of "move action" that doesn't include getting-off-your-mount.
I wouldn't focus on "no actual distance"... I'd focus on the word right before it: "move". Mounting/dismounting consumes 0 of your move speed. Thus yes, you can 5ft then mount, or dismount then 5ft. Why? Because you have not moved... you have mounted/dismounted, which is a different thing, like standing up.