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Reading through some traps I'm going to employ in an upcoming game, I've become doubtful on my knowledge of traps and when/how they go off. I'm curious at what point a trap is just un-Disable-able. Trip wires and pressure plates and such are easy enough to understand. I'm talking more about magic traps that go off sight or proximity.
A lot of traps seem to use the Alarm spell. The trap section reads:
Unlike when the spell is cast, an alarm spell used as a trigger can have an area that's no larger than the area the trap is meant to protect.
Under most circumstances, wouldn't a character have to go through that area in order to disable the trap? If the source of the trap is within the area it's meant to protect, it would trigger before anyone gets close enough to roll a skill check.
Or if a trap has Sight (True Seeing), can a character even get close enough to try to disable it?
Sight range and the Perception bonus conferred on the trap depend on the spell chosen, as shown.
True Seeing - Line of sight (up to 120 ft.) - Perception Bonus: +30
Barring unusual circumstances - like a character with +50 Stealth or having access to disable it from behind a wall / beneath the floor / whatever would block line of sight yet allow a Disable Device check - a trap with True Seeing is going to have sight on you before you get next to it.
Maybe it's because I don't use magic traps as much in home games, but I feel like I've overlooked this whole section of tools to use and have subpar understanding of them. Are these basically ways of making traps guaranteed to get set off? Or am I missing and misunderstanding something?
I think you are confusing the trigger mechanism of the trap with the traps area of effect.
Normally the trapmaker would want to put the trigger within the area of effect. If you put the trigger before or after the area of effect, assuming you want to inflict some sort of damage to creatures within the area, then you'll miss the creature that triggers it.
There are a variety of ways to trigger traps, and almost all can be defeated, that what Disable Device is for, whether the trigger is a trip wire, pressure plate, alarm spell, true seeing, or whatever.
Normally it's the trigger that gets disabled, but getting to the trigger could require Stealth or Acrobatics, for example a rogue could slowly creep up on a trigger with True Sight, using a tower shield as cover since True Seeing can't see through cover as it's designed to see through magical disguises and concealment.
Just look at Raiders of the Lost Ark for some good examples.
A trap can be spotted from far away. You just add the penalties for distance to the perception DC. Getting close enough to disable the trap might not be so easy.
Some traps that are proximity based have a bypass.
Some magic device traps have special proximity triggers that activate only when certain kinds of creatures approach. For example, a detect good spell can serve as a proximity trigger on an evil altar, springing the attached trap only when someone of good alignment gets close enough to it.
This is important because if it is in an area that bad guys have to travel through, then it makes sense that they be able to go through without dying. In that case capturing a bad to see if they know how to bypass it may be needed.
Many sensory based traps are also magical, so detect magic or arcane sight should work to let the party know what is going on.
If they are set to go off no matter who comes by then unless it is some old tomb, there may be another path. Another idea is to just set it off on purpose with a summoning spell.
If the spell is a "spell trap" then dispel magic takes care of it.
Even though all traps have a disable device DC, sometimes it is better to get past them through other means.
Id have the preception check to find the trap also find the alarm triger. then if he can disable the magicla trap (the alarm) he can do so from anywwhere the alarm area of effect is(standing in a 5ft before it and raeching over to disarm it).
he doesn't need to go to where the trap springs. in fact this will also be more effective as he bypass the trigering part of the trap- the main thing in a real trap disableing - making it not work.
this will also work in the case he fail and triger the trap. he reached over too far and triggared the alarm.
Id have the preception check to find the trap also find the alarm triger. then if he can disable the magicla trap (the alarm) he can do so from anywwhere the alarm area of effect is. he doesn't need to go to where the trap springs. in fact this will also be more effective as he bypass the trigering part of the trap- the main thing in a real trap disableing - making it not work.
The alarm is part of the trap. If you disarm the trap it all goes away, unless you are trying to suggest a houserule for having the alarm be easier to access than the trap so that the player can get to the trap.
no, i sugjest that the dc to disarm the trap be aplied to the area where the alarm is at. not the damaging part of the trap which is in the alarm area of effect. if the ruge disarm the alarm spell then the trap won't triger. he still need to beat the trap dc. he just get to do so while outside the alarm sepll area and not inside - which would mean he allready triggered the trap.
this is in case the trap is made of two parts the alarm spell and the trap itself. some alarm traps are just having an alarm sound when some1 go through them(activte an alarm spell) and the spell and the trap are one and the same.(and again would be trated the same as above. stand out of the alarm area of effect and tr yto disable the magical trap fail and you triger it)
no, i sugjest that the dc to disarm the trap be aplied to the area where the alarm is at. not the damaging part of the trap which is in the alarm area of effect. if the ruge disarm the alarm spell then the trap won't triger. he still need to beat the trap dc. he just get to do so while outside the alarm sepll area and not inside - which would mean he allready triggered the trap.
this is in case the trap is made of two parts the alarm spell and the trap itself. some alarm traps are just having an alarm sound when some1 go through them(activte an alarm spell) and the spell and the trap are one and the same.(and again would be trated the same as above. stand out of the alarm area of effect and tr yto disable the magical trap fail and you triger it)
By the rules the proximity affect is there to also keep people away from the actual trigger, which is partly why they are so annoying.
ok then call the alarm spell a 2nd trap (magical) covering the 1st one and need a dc of 25 + spell level (1 unless hightened for dc 26) to disable the alram before you can reach to take care of the trap itslef.
not saying it isless anoying. just explain how to ty and deal with it as a trapper.
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Contributor
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Normally the trapmaker would want to put the trigger within the area of effect. If you put the trigger before or after the area of effect, assuming you want to inflict some sort of damage to creatures within the area, then you'll miss the creature that triggers it.
Okay, so let's say there's a Fireball trap that uses Sight (True Seeing). The location of the spell trap is in the back corner of a room that only has a single entrance in the opposite corner. The trap is set to go off any time the True Seeing detects movement, and it has 120ft. vision range with +30 perception. At that point, even if the trap was detected before it goes off, they'd have to bypass the Perception check to get close enough to disable, right? And if they don't succeed, it triggers and goes off while they're approaching?
I just want to be clear on how all this stuff works. I have a very good trap-monkey in this party, so I want to give him every chance to do his thing. At the same time, being able to have a trap go off with this party is something of a rarity and would be fun to do on occasion.
Normally the trapmaker would want to put the trigger within the area of effect. If you put the trigger before or after the area of effect, assuming you want to inflict some sort of damage to creatures within the area, then you'll miss the creature that triggers it.Okay, so let's say there's a Fireball trap that uses Sight (True Seeing). The location of the spell trap is in the back corner of a room that only has a single entrance in the opposite corner. The trap is set to go off any time the True Seeing detects movement, and it has 120ft. vision range with +30 perception. At that point, even if the trap was detected before it goes off, they'd have to bypass the Perception check to get close enough to disable, right? And if they don't succeed, it triggers and goes off while they're approaching?
I just want to be clear on how all this stuff works. I have a very good trap-monkey in this party, so I want to give him every chance to do his thing. At the same time, being able to have a trap go off with this party is something of a rarity and would be fun to do on occasion.
This is an area where it makes more sense to think less, not more...
For example, we could use a modern version of this fireball trap. Imagine a machine gun hooked up to a camera. Now ask yourself how James Bond would get past this? Maybe use a mirror to trick the camera. Or maybe recognize the camera's blind spot(s) so he can get close enough to spray paint the lens. Or whatever.
But if you were GMing a spy RPG and your player was playing James Bond, would you make the player describe exactly what he does?
I hope not - unless you're gaming group is a bunch of CIA spooks playing RPGs in your off-time.
So don't ask your player to figure out how to defeat that fireball trap. He might not know, but his "very good trap-monkey" character knows exactly what to do.
Now, if you're just looking for some easy description that you as a GM can give to, well, describe what happens, then keep it simple. If he makes his search check he can see the charred little hole in the far wall where the fireball is discharged and can make out the sensor for the True Sight trigger (maybe a rune on the far wall, or a tiny gemstone, or whatever). If he makes his disable device roll, then he managed to use the right materials to confuse the trigger and allow him to reach the trap and disable it.
If you don't like this approach, then you need to have a chat with your skill-monkey's player that will go something like this:
You: Hey, I think some traps should be too hard to disable using skills alone.
Him: So you're invalidating my role?
You: Yeah, I think clever BBEGs can use magic to make traps that only other magic can overcome so you just have to accept that your role is now marginalized.
Him: You couldn't have told me this when I rolled this character? I might have made different choices.
Or something like that.
I'm hoping that this is NOT what you want, so I suggest keeping it simple.
One simple solution is to remember that whoever lives here has to be able to survive his own trap. Yeah, maybe that means he just knows a command word that suppresses the trap for 1 minute so he can walk by - if so, let the group have a chance to discover the password. But more often, he will leave a safe path past the trap - it won't be obvious to the casual observer, but maybe hugging the left wall avoids setting off the fireball (or something like that).
Another simple solution is to never have dead end traps that only exist for the sake of being a trap. By this i mean that your room with the fireball in the corner should not be just a dead end. The correct solution should NEVER be: "Oh look, here's a giant room that exists for NO reason other than to have this fireball trap - let's turn around and go back to the other parts of this dungeon where the real adventure is."
Traps should guard something important: an entrance, an inner sanctum, an escape tunnel, a treasure room, the princess, etc. Presumably the guy who built the trap wants access to whatever the trap is guarding - he wants to enter his home, sleep in his sanctum, escape through his tunnel, count his treasures, and make out with his princess. So there is ALWAYS a save solution. Your trap monkey has the skill, whatever it is, to figure this out.
ok then call the alarm spell a 2nd trap (magical) covering the 1st one and need a dc of 25 + spell level (1 unless hightened for dc 26) to disable the alram before you can reach to take care of the trap itslef.
not saying it isless anoying. just explain how to ty and deal with it as a trapper.
I am saying that by the rules you can't do that.
Now if you are proposing a house rule that is different, but I dont know if you are trying to propose a house rule or not.
Don't forget that traps are also stupid, and only follow their "programming".
So if your trap is set to fire off a Fireball at any movement the True Seeing sees, then just chuck a rock in the room. Then repeat every round, determine the reset time, if any. If the trap doesn't reset - it's now disabled.
If your traps are going to use Fireballs & Lightning Bolts then make sure there is nothing valuable in the area of effect that you don't want blown up too.
Also in your example, only the True Seeing needs to be defeated in order to bypass the trap.
Not every trap has to be completely & properly Disabled Deviced. You can use Disable Device on the trigger or the mechanical trap itself, just set it off and suck up the damage, Dispel Magic any magical sensors, put a barrier in front of ranged traps, fly/bridge over floor traps, Stealth past them, Dodge through them or if all else fails, go around them.