I'm looking into an Arcane Trickster, and when I was selecting spells, I became a bit confused.
Sneak attack damage is applied to any spells that deal damage and have an attack roll. Ability damage is considered damage that also gets multiplied on confirmed critical strikes. According to my searches of this forum, sneak attack damage is dealt as whatever form of damage the spell deals. For example, Ray of Frost deals 1d3+2d6 cold damage, not 1d3 cold + 2d6 typeless damage.
So here's my question: What exactly happens to Calcifying Touch? Do you slap a flatfooted guy for 1d4+4d6 dexterity damage? It's an attack roll that deals a type of damage, but that would make it a touch attack that guarantees just about everything gets petrified in a single touch.
Arcane Trickster has clerification for spells without an attack roll that it must be hit-point damage, but I'm just not finding a rule for those that do not fall into Surprise Spells.
The case used to be that when a spell did ability damage, the tacked-on precision damage was negative energy damage, but I haven't found the reference yet, only this way old thread
No to ongoing effects getting sneak attack damage. When they occur, you're not rolling to see if you hit, let alone checking for sneak attack conditions, thus you don't get the extra damage from them thar SA dice.
Ability damage, and Hit Point damage, are 2 different things.
Sneak Attack only tacks on if you're doing Hit Point damage.
I respect wanting it to be that way, but I'm not seeing a FAQ or anything in any description that says it must be interpreted that way. Sneak attack only states damage. Ability damage is damage.
So far, the closest thing to keeping it fair is the 3.5 rule ConfusedPeon linked.
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Ability damage isn't damage -- it's ability damage.
Notice it's location:
in the universal monster rules and in the ability scores section
Also:
If you are right you could say, "Cure Light Wounds says it heals damage and ability damage is damage so I can use Cure Light Wounds to cure your ability damage."
I don't think that's an argument you are ready to make.
Is there actually any rule that says that energy damage spells like Scorching Ray do the appropriate energy type in Sneak Attack damage? It makes sense, but I cannot find a rule on it anywhere.
My question: if you wear a Deliquescent Glove and hit someone with a Shocking Grasp to do sneak attack damage, what type of damage is the sneak attack?
Well are you attacking with an unarmed attack?
If so then it would do unarmed attack, the corrosive weapon ability (1d6 acid) and carry shocking grasp.
So the unarmed strike would be the attack and carry the sneak attack and a 1d6 acid and then the shocking grasp.
If you were using shocking grasp then you would do electrical damage, with no acid damage since the gloves wouldn't do a thing as the situation doesn't activate them.
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Sneak attack only states damage. Ability damage is damage.
Ability damage is not damage.
If your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.
Some attacks or special abilities cause ability damage or drain, reducing the designated ability score by the listed amount. Ability damage can be healed naturally. Ability drain is permanent and can only be restored through magic.
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.
Here's the relevant quote. It's an AT ability, not an ability that just anyone can use.
As for those gloves, there is a FAQ about it, and it says the sneak attack damage only applies to a single attack if the attacks are simultaneous, relevant in cases such as magic missile (only one of the missiles deals the SA). I would rule that the Shocking Grasp is the attack, and the gloves just provide a bonus damage roll on a successful, not an extra attack of their own. Therefore, the sneak attack damage would be electricity-based.
EDIT: Abraham Spalding's post does remind me of the peculiarities of touch spells. You can actually hold that charge and perform a touch attack later, so you actually could be in a situation where Shocking Grasp was not the main attack, and just another side-effect. In that case, the electricity would not be the primary damage type, and the SA would thus not deal extra electricity damage.
Well are you attacking with an unarmed attack?
If so then it would do unarmed attack, the corrosive weapon ability (1d6 acid) and carry shocking grasp.
So the unarmed strike would be the attack and carry the sneak attack and a 1d6 acid and then the shocking grasp.
If you were using shocking grasp then you would do electrical damage, with no acid damage since the gloves wouldn't do a thing as the situation doesn't activate them.
I would just be attacking with the touch attack from Shocking Grasp, which would indeed activate the Deliquescent Gloves.
The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage.
I don't know if there is any RAW to resolve what type of damage the sneak attack would be, but if there is I'd like to find out because I'm considering doing something similar to this with a PFS character.
Well are you attacking with an unarmed attack?
If so then it would do unarmed attack, the corrosive weapon ability (1d6 acid) and carry shocking grasp.
So the unarmed strike would be the attack and carry the sneak attack and a 1d6 acid and then the shocking grasp.
If you were using shocking grasp then you would do electrical damage, with no acid damage since the gloves wouldn't do a thing as the situation doesn't activate them.
I would just be attacking with the touch attack from Shocking Grasp, which would indeed activate the Deliquescent Gloves.
The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage.I don't know if there is any RAW to resolve what type of damage the sneak attack would be, but if there is I'd like to find out because I'm considering doing something similar to this with a PFS character.
The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage. If the wearer uses that hand to wield a weapon or make an attack with an unarmed strike or natural weapon, that attack gains the corrosive weapon special ability.
So you have at touch attack that does 1d6 acid damage. But you are not using the touch attack... you are using the spell. So the gloves wouldn't activate.
You are not using your melee touch attack ability the gloves give you and shocking grasp is not an unarmed strike, or natural weapon or a weapon in hand, therefore the corrosive weapon special ability doesn't apply either.
IF for some reason your GM decided otherwise though then it should be:
Shocking grasp with sneak attack damage (since that's the attack) and 1d6 acid damage (since that's a rider and always is).
Surprise Spells: At 10th level, an arcane trickster can add her sneak attack damage to any spell that deals damage, if the targets are flat-footed. This additional damage only applies to spells that deal hit point damage, and the additional damage is of the same type as the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or halve the damage, it also negates or halves the sneak attack damage.Here's the relevant quote. It's an AT ability, not an ability that just anyone can use.
Well, any rogue with UMD could use a scroll of Shocking Grasp and get sneak attack with it. The Arcane Trickster ability just allows you to use it on spells that don't have an attack roll.
As for those gloves, there is a FAQ about it, and it says the sneak attack damage only applies to a single attack if the attacks are simultaneous, relevant in cases such as magic missile (only one of the missiles deals the SA). I would rule that the Shocking Grasp is the attack, and the gloves just provide a bonus damage roll on a successful, not an extra attack of their own. Therefore, the sneak attack damage would be electricity-based.
What about if you get sneak attack with an Elemental Assessor? Is the Sneak Attack damage evenly split between the four energy types?
It says 'melee touch attacks', plural, so it applies to all melee touch attacks, not just unarmed and natural strikes. I believe it can and does stack with Shocking Grasp, as outlined above.
EDIT: @RumpinRufus,
1.) Correct.
2.) Unclear, but depending on the strength of the sneak attack, you may not be able to split it evenly, so I'd just apply it to whichever element dealt the most damage, in the same way as the ongoing effect does, for simplicity's sake.
Good point Cuuniyevo, I yield and say it would be the last one I put up then:
Shocking grasp + sneak attack (electricity) + 1d6 acid (rider to the touch attack).
With Elemental Assessor I would go with whichever damage type actually connects or split it. But I have nothing to extend in rules that way.
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Ability damage, and Hit Point damage, are 2 different things.
Sneak Attack only tacks on if you're doing Hit Point damage.
I respect wanting it to be that way, but I'm not seeing a FAQ or anything in any description that says it must be interpreted that way. Sneak attack only states damage. Ability damage is damage.
So far, the closest thing to keeping it fair is the 3.5 rule ConfusedPeon linked.
I may be a little late to this party but
there is this FAQ relating to weapon specialisationbut I believe the principle will apply to sneak attack damage.
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No to ongoing effects getting sneak attack damage. When they occur, you're not rolling to see if you hit, let alone checking for sneak attack conditions, thus you don't get the extra damage from them thar SA dice.
I don't understand. Sneak attack represents finding vulnerable spots to exploit, right? So once an Acid Arrow is stuck in a vulnerable spot, that spot is not vulnerable the next round even though it is exactly the same place?
It seems to be a shot in the groin is a shot in the groin no matter when it occurs.
For game balance reasons maybe you are right. An Arcane Trickster Sneak Attacks the BDF with an Extended Acid Arrow then hides in Obscuring Mist twiddling his thumbs waiting for the victim to succumb.
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No to ongoing effects getting sneak attack damage. When they occur, you're not rolling to see if you hit, let alone checking for sneak attack conditions, thus you don't get the extra damage from them thar SA dice.I don't understand. Sneak attack represents finding vulnerable spots to exploit, right? So once an Acid Arrow is stuck in a vulnerable spot, that spot is not vulnerable the next round even though it is exactly the same place?
It seems to be a shot in the groin is a shot in the groin no matter when it occurs.
For game balance reasons maybe you are right. An Arcane Trickster Sneak Attacks the BDF with an Extended Acid Arrow then hides in Obscuring Mist twiddling his thumbs waiting for the victim to succumb.
We may as well go all the way with "RAW" here. As per the Rogue Sneak Attack rules, which the Arcane Tricker's Sneak Attack is "exactly like":
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC...
The ongoing damage from an Acid Arrow is not an attack. The extra damage from Sneak Attack is instantaneous and the result of catching "an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack."
As you say, it's pretty unbalancing to allow the sneak attack damage to stack with the ongoing damage anyway (even for a lvl 14+ character), so hopefully this pretty strict adherence to the letter of the rules makes the interpretation in favor of balance easier to go with.
In other words -- it would be akin to saying a pool of acid should be able to critically hit you even though no one is attacking with it.
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In other words -- it would be akin to saying a pool of acid should be able to critically hit you even though no one is attacking with it.
OK, I agree with Barad re game balance reasons, but how would you sneak attack a target with a pool of acid? And a critical hit is not the same (but similar) in game mechanics. How would you stick a pool of acid in a vulnerable spot?
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In other words -- it would be akin to saying a pool of acid should be able to critically hit you even though no one is attacking with it.OK, I agree with Barad re game balance reasons, but how would you sneak attack a target with a pool of acid? And a critical hit is not the same (but similar) in game mechanics. How would you stick a pool of acid in a vulnerable spot?
Some Giants wear codpieces. One could conceivably be filled with acid by a malicious wizard.
It would be untyped hit point damage, subject to any DR the target has, provided such DR has not already been fully applied.Well are you attacking with an unarmed attack?
If so then it would do unarmed attack, the corrosive weapon ability (1d6 acid) and carry shocking grasp.
So the unarmed strike would be the attack and carry the sneak attack and a 1d6 acid and then the shocking grasp.
If you were using shocking grasp then you would do electrical damage, with no acid damage since the gloves wouldn't do a thing as the situation doesn't activate them.
I would just be attacking with the touch attack from Shocking Grasp, which would indeed activate the Deliquescent Gloves.
The wearer’s melee touch attacks with that hand deal 1d6 points of acid damage.I don't know if there is any RAW to resolve what type of damage the sneak attack would be, but if there is I'd like to find out because I'm considering doing something similar to this with a PFS character.
Doesn't that lead to incongruous situations like being able to damage an electricity-immune creature with the sneak attack portion of a shocking grasp+sneak attack? That doesn't make any sense really.
I'm not really sure why bonus precision damage would be treated any differently than other bonus damage for this question. If I hit a creature with a shocking grasp while a bard is using inspire courage, I don't do 5d6 electricity damage + 3 non-specific damage, right?
In other words -- it would be akin to saying a pool of acid should be able to critically hit you even though no one is attacking with it.OK, I agree with Barad re game balance reasons, but how would you sneak attack a target with a pool of acid? And a critical hit is not the same (but similar) in game mechanics. How would you stick a pool of acid in a vulnerable spot?
In theory you could get a sneak attack with a pool of acid via telekinesis -- but no, by itself you cannot since a pool of acid is not an attack, just like acid sitting on you burning you is not an attack (though in the case of acid arrow the acid sitting on you and burning you is a result of an earlier attack).
Which is why I said they are akin.
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Nik/Abe -
I think we are getting to far into the realm of theory here.
Game mechanics indicates a sneak attack has to be an attack, so that fits with what Abe said.
But since the Acid Arrow was the result of an earlier attack, it then qualifies as an attack and Sneak becomes relevant.
Letting ongoing damage count as Sneak, IMO, is unbalanced as well as it being, at least in part, as RAI, rather then RAW.
Sneak attack only applies to attacks, not effects that carry on after attacks.
No attack roll == no sneak attack damage.
The damage after the attack from acid arrow does not have an attack roll, and therefore has no sneak attack damage.
Just like being set on fire by an attack that deal sneak attack doesn't mean the damage you take from the fire on the next round gets sneak attack. Instead you just take the normal burning damage.