RotR with only two players


Rise of the Runelords


In the next two weeks ill be starting up a RotR campaign, the only problem is that I only have two players to work with. What I'm wondering is how I could balance the game for two players. Right now I'm thinking one of the following.

1, Make the players Mythic
2, Play Gestalt with 25 point buy
3, Have 2 DMPM's accompany the party

What do you think I should go with?


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Hey! How experienced are your players and what is your party composition?

I have a group at the BBEG (just had a failed attempt last night lol) of 2 players.

We went with 2 NPC aids. I make them go find NPC aids from the world through roleplay (they're running with the iconics Kyra and Seelah right now, Kyra who they met at the festival at the very beginning, Seelah was rescued in the 5th book).The point of them being external NPCs keeps the players from feeling like they're roleplaying 2 characters. They pretty much do what they want with the NPCs in combat (as long as they don't order them to do stuff outside of their nature) but they don't control the NPCs in any other way. The NPCs are there because their goals align, so if they drift off the path, the NPCs may leave.

At first I tried to run them just the 2 of them but with action economy + their choices of classes + being totally new the the Pathfinder system (Gunslinger + Fighter) the group wasn't going to stand a chance. However for your group, if they are experienced enough, and WANT to form a balanced enough 2 player party (can they heal themselves? is there at least 1 caster? is there a guy who can deal with locks and traps? how about knowledge checks?) they might enjoy the challenge, ideally with help from the Leadership feat. However, my players wanted to be a gunslinger and fighter and not obsess over optimizing to 2 powerful classes to cover the 2 players missing at the table, and I wasn't going to force them to play something they didn't want to play. YMMV.

I would ask your players what THEY want. Tell them if they are just two players, even with mythic or gestalt rules, they stand a good chance of struggling in certain areas of the campaign due to action economy. I don't know enough about mythic/gestalt rules with 2 PCs to know if that would yield a fun and balanced game. If they seem intrigued by the difficulty because they consider themselves optimizers/power gamers, then give them a chance, if the struggle becomes too hard later you can always introduce NPCs or DMPCs or additional PCs later. If they are all like "well we were thinking rogue + monk! Whee!" then just go ahead with additional NPCs to fill the missing holes in the party. A campaign is a serious time investment to go into, so I want my players to have a lot of independence in character design, and I'd be sad to hear if my players went "well...I wanted to be X but I don't know if that's powerful enough for our 2 player RotR so...".

I would say my biggest concern with having 2 OP gestalt/mythic pcs instead of 2 "normal" PCs + 2 NPCs would be the combat game devolving into rocket tag really quickly.


Okay. My suggestion? Go Mythic. Disallow certain Mythic Feats like Mythic Power Attack or Mythic Improved Critical, but the extra attacks from Mythic can really help. And you don't even need to go that far into Mythic - 2 Tiers would likely suffice.

Another related suggestion? Give the players 3 Hero Points, and have the Hero Points recharge for each game session. It's like Mythic Lite, provides the ability for extra standard actions or the like when needed, and could keep the group alive.

Finally, you could provide a support NPC - if neither player goes for a Bard, have the NPC be a bard who is recording their efforts. The Bardic Song ability will benefit the group, and the Bard can provide healing magic and other buffs. Staying in the background as support will help the players feel like the heroes of the game (which they are!). And even better, should you eventually get new players (which I've found will happen with groups over time) then once you're at four players you can retire the bard who'll be writing the epic tale of the players.


Have each of them run two characters.


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Here's what I'd do if I wanted to run an AP with only two players...

1. Use 25-point buy.
2. Use Hero Points
3. Give each PC the Leadership feat for free at 1st level.


I'm liking the idea of adding NPC's to help balance out the party (maybe on top of Gestalt or Mythic), although I am honestly not that good at controlling multiple characters in combat. My players said they don't want to control more then one PC.


Then your best bet is to use a Bard NPC. The Bard could be built Defensively and tell the group he's no good in a fight. You could even have him tell a tale of the last fight he got into and how he almost hurt the person he was with and is deathly afraid of hurting someone else by mistake.

Trust me. The bonus to hit and damage from Bardic Song and the healing from being able to cast Bardic healing magic will benefit the group nicely without risking the problems found in Mythic. And let's face it - your players will be trying to learn their characters anyway. Adding in Mythic could be an extra complication that ends up frustrating them.


I think you'll have a better go at it nerfing some of the encounters than buffing your PCs, and going with Tangent's idea of adding a GMNPC. I disagree that they necessarily have to be healing/buffing focused - I think that you should learn what classes your players plan to pick, then add a GMNPC of the class that covers their weaknesses. If they don't have a support-based PC already lined up, then a pacifist bard is a great choice. If they need, say, a big dumb fighter more, then that might be better, or an arcane caster with a very small spell-list. You should not need to alter the first fights in the game...likely not until

Spoiler:
Thistletop
. By then you will have a good idea of what your PCs can handle and can adjust accordingly.

I did not like controlling GMNPCs either (I felt I was contributing too much to the fight, it was hard to keep PCs from metagaming based on my actions). So after GMPCing through the first book, we moved over to letting them control the characters in combat. If you are going to have to control them no matter what, make your life easy and restrict the kinds of options they have in combat.

I would consider using Hero Points to help mitigate death. Hero Points were pretty much essential in my game, but like I said, my 2 players were also new to the system on top of everything. Without Hero Points we would have had over 10 permanent character deaths across the whole campaign, a rather demoralizing prospect for new players, but with them we had 3. They are talking about attempting without Hero Points next campaign. I'd talk with your players about how they feel about the Hero Points system.


Any chance of getting more players? If this is a Play by Post on these boards it's worth a shot trying to get more players.

What are your current 2 players thinking of playing, and how much system mastery do they already have?


Small note: I've noticed that campaigns will attract players once they have run for a little bit. This is one reason why I suggest the Bard NPC - it is possible to write out the character after a little bit. Mythic or Gestalt cannot easily be written out. It won't be immediate. You'll probably be finished up at Thistletop before you attract new players. But it will happen.


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After I've given it some though I think I will go with having an NPC join the party. We havn't done character creation yet but my players are thinking of playing a rouge and something with arcane magic (the better to blast you with).


Rogue and arcane caster? In that case, I'm thinking your DMPC probably needs to be a flanking buddy of some sort.


The Gula Path wrote:
After I've given it some though I think I will go with having an NPC join the party. We havn't done character creation yet but my players are thinking of playing a rouge and something with arcane magic (the better to blast you with).

I think the NPC route is the way to go as well. As with two less players my fear would not so much be the combat (as you could adjust that). But with 2 less players you have two less minds to come up with the needed team work to problem solve. With a NPC role played by the DM, you can better provide the proper needed hints when things are not going down the correct road. I would just have the players do the combat with the NPC's and you control the role play of them

I Further agree, if down the road the group does find a new person to join the group a NPC can simply be replaced.

Shadow Lodge

How close to Dayton Ohio do you live. :)


The Gula Path wrote:

In the next two weeks ill be starting up a RotR campaign, the only problem is that I only have two players to work with. What I'm wondering is how I could balance the game for two players. Right now I'm thinking one of the following.

1, Make the players Mythic
2, Play Gestalt with 25 point buy
3, Have 2 DMPM's accompany the party

What do you think I should go with?

2.

Absolutely.

But feel free to toss in a Shalelu or a Quink or an Orik from time to time rather than official GMPC's.


Usual Suspect wrote:
How close to Dayton Ohio do you live. :)

Tragically very far away as I live in Brisbane, Australia

Shadow Lodge

[Making sad face.]

Don't think I can afford the commute.


Usual Suspect wrote:

[Making sad face.]

Don't think I can afford the commute.

It's not that far away...

Shadow Lodge

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It is within the 10,000 mile limit that the US military normally uses to determine tour of duty eligibility. Pick a location you'd like to be stationed at. Trust that the military will get you an assignment within 10,000 miles of that location.

Unfortunately I retired and the government won't pay to move me anymore.


I have two players and I've given them max HPs at each level. I'm also autolevelling to keep them at the same level and been very lenient on cohorts and followers with Shalelu and Black Arrow Rangers following around most of the campaign to date and one PC redeeming a random ogre from the dam and taking Leadership to turn him into a cohort and a cleric of Caiden Caylean (yes you read that correctly).

After the Black Magga fight, I'd agree with giving them Fate points and Mythic too (just waiting for the rulebook to arrive). If I had a do-over, I'd give their first mythic tier after defeating Malfeshnekor.

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