Sun Blade + Smite vs. Undead = Really Big Numbers, yes?


Rules Questions


The question is essentially does the Sun Blade double smite damage versus undead?

Relevant quotations:

Sun Blade wrote:
Against Negative Energy Plane creatures or undead creatures, the sword deals double damage (and ×3 on a critical hit instead of the usual ×2).
Smite Evil wrote:
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.

Assuming a normal damage output of 1d10+10 on a level 20 paladin character, is the first hit vs. undead doing 2d10+60 and 2d10+40 on subsequent hits?


I would believe so. And if the paladin were of the Undead Scourge archetype, they would hit for 2d10+60 on every hit.


The Sun Blade text says the sword deals the increased damage. This seems to be inclusive language, meaning that is relevant to the sword (and only the sword), more specifically the weapon damage dice listed, and is supported by the factor the critical multiplier of the sword itself increases (and not just the wielder's multiplier). If it said the wielder deals double damage, you would be correct about Smite Damage and the such being multiplied.

That being said, if there was Vital Strike involved, the enhanced damage dice from the Sun Blade would apply to the multiplying of that (to 4D10, 6D10, etc.)


I see no reason to think that the smite damage wouldn't be doubled by the sword doing double damage to undead... So...

1d10+10 is your "normal" damage (I think is what you're getting at, yes?)

1d10+30 is your normal smite (+20 for your 20 levels against random evil... giants, I guess?)

1d10+50 would be your damage on the first hit against an evil dragon or (non-negative energy powered) demon.

So, I think we're looking at 2d10+100 on the first hit against an undead. Also ignoring damage reduction, because smite. So, yea, it's pretty obscene.

Smite damage can crit, as far as I know, so I don't see why it couldn't be doubled...


Darksol, what do you think happens when you charge with a lance? What gets doubled? Only the dice? Because...

Lance wrote:


Benefit: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount.

So, yea... A weapon dealing double damage seems to mean attacks with that weapon do double damage - at least that's always how I've seen it played. That's why things like vital strike call out doing twice as many dice, as opposed to "double damage."


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

The Sun Blade text says the sword deals the increased damage. This seems to be inclusive language, meaning that is relevant to the sword (and only the sword), more specifically the weapon damage dice listed, and is supported by the factor the critical multiplier of the sword itself increases (and not just the wielder's multiplier). If it said the wielder deals double damage, you would be correct about Smite Damage and the such being multiplied.

That being said, if there was Vital Strike involved, the enhanced damage dice from the Sun Blade would apply to the multiplying of that (to 4D10, 6D10, etc.)

Mind you, smite is just a bonus to the damage of your existing attacks. If it were a distinct source of damage that just happened when you hit, I would agree with your reasoning. However, it's not. I'm not, though, asking if it universally doubles smite damage vs. undead if you were to use a different weapon. A level 20 paladin smite punching with their fist would do just +20 damage even if they also had a Sun Blade in the other hand.


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It seems pretty clear, I think, that doubling includes all bonuses, unless otherwise specified.


Cyrus Lanthier wrote:

Darksol, what do you think happens when you charge with a lance? What gets doubled? Only the dice? Because...

Lance wrote:


Benefit: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount.
So, yea... A weapon dealing double damage seems to mean attacks with that weapon do double damage - at least that's always how I've seen it played. That's why things like vital strike call out doing twice as many dice, as opposed to "double damage."

Honestly, that just tells me the RAW regarding the Lance is grammatically incorrect, especially since it fundamentally follows the same wording as the Sun Blade. If the intent is that it doubles all damage regarding a given attack, the RAW would need to be worded to something like this:

Lance wrote:
Benefit: Attacks made with a lance while on a charging mount deal double damage.

The Sun Blade would need similar revisions, like so:

Sun Blade wrote:
Attacks made against undead or creatures from a Negative Energy Plane deal double damage (and have a x3 critical multiplier instead of the usual x2).

With that being said, I understand the intent behind it, and since a Lance, a mundane weapon, has the intent of doubling all damage associated with charging, it's not a stretch to assume that same intent is followed with a high-end magical sword. But again, the RAW does not reflect that sort of intent.


Except that we have to think of RAW aw being written in a language. That is the established language of Pathfinder rules. The lance, I'm fairly sure, is meant to double all damage, as you say. The Sun Blade uses identical language ("deal double damage"). It even changes the critical multiplier like charging with a lance (which goes to x4 rather than x3, because it's normally x3, but the logic is the same).

You're right that they could word it better, but I think it's clear, given what we know.

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