Proposal regarding languages for half-human characters.


Pathfinder Society

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Silver Crusade 3/5

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I originally made this proposal in the blog post regarding languages in the Core campaign. John indicated he was open to hearing discussion of the idea. Let this be the thread for that discussion.

The Proposal
Please allow half-orcs and half-elves to substitute a human ethnic language (such as Hallit or Tien) in place of their racial language (orc or elf, respectively).

For half-human characters raised in human communities, it makes more sense from a role-playing standpoint to begin knowing the human languages of that community than the non-human language that they might not have been exposed to.

Just to reiterate: the suggestion is to replace one language with another. The total number of starting languages would remain the same.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

This is how I run it in home games, and how I think it should be anyway.

I would even go further and say that anyone who chooses the "Adopted" trait would switch out their starting languages for those of their adopted race.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

+1

Sovereign Court 5/5 *

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I also support this proposal.

Shadow Lodge

This makes thematic sense and is balanced.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Bump, because I'm afraid it got lost in the discussion about the change to the FAQ regarding SLAs.

This proposed change is still something I would very much like to see happen.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

Does make a lot of sense. +1

Silver Crusade 3/5

Yeah, for half-elves and orcs, there is no logical explanation for why they'd know the language of the other half if they weren't raised by that race.

For the outsider-blooded (tieflings, aasimars, elemental types) I can understand knowing weird languages without having actually learned them from anywhere, because well, outsiders have mysterious powers anyway. But orcs and elves aren't magical like that.

(I might have a level 12 half-orc character born in Qadira, who I think met the first orc in his life when he was 16 years old and at level 9 or so. Him knowing the language really hurt my suspension of disbelief.)

Shadow Lodge *

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

This is how I run it in home games. Definitely in favor.

I'm trying to think of potential downsides and not coming up with any. Abusable by THAT GUY who would keep changing his backstory to grab an appropriate language? Nah...

Grand Lodge 4/5

It makes sense. The only downside I see is that making PFS rules a little more divergent from the CRB, by presumably a blog post or FAQ, to that small extent encourages the ongoing stream of "how does X work in PFS" questions. It might be cleaner to make a single revision to "Languages" in the next version of the Guide to PFSOP covering several recent changes.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I'm in favor as well.

Dark Archive

Makes far more sense from my perspective.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Starglim wrote:
It makes sense. The only downside I see is that making PFS rules a little more divergent from the CRB, by presumably a blog post or FAQ, to that small extent encourages the ongoing stream of "how does X work in PFS" questions. It might be cleaner to make a single revision to "Languages" in the next version of the Guide to PFSOP covering several recent changes.

I'd be happy either way. I see the upside to both of those approaches.

5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't agree - growing up half-, people will assume the character.speaks that language and try to use it with them. I find it.likely.they would.pick.it.up.from that. O'd more see a Qadiran half-orc speaking Orc and Kelish than Common and Kelish.

If a.character grows.up in a place with no offs around, it doesn't make much sense for.them to be half-orc in the first.place.

(Pardon the typos and grammar, silly phone)

The Exchange 5/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Majuba wrote:

I don't agree - growing up half-, people will assume the character.speaks that language and try to use it with them. I find it.likely.they would.pick.it.up.from that. O'd more see a Qadiran half-orc speaking Orc and Kelish than Common and Kelish.

If a.character grows.up in a place with no offs around, it doesn't make much sense for.them to be half-orc in the first.place.

(Pardon the typos and grammar, silly phone)

I disagree.. and will provide real world examples (even though everyone in the example is human).

I have a friend who has two (adopted) chinesse girls - niether of them speak chinesse. Most people can tell at a glance what thier ethnicity is (at least they can tell they are east asian), but no one speaks to them in Chinesse (at least not more than once or twice).

I have worked with a man who was half Russian and half Polish.... and could speak a little Spanish - but no Russian or Polish.

My wife speaks fluent Brazillian Portugesse - but her parents are from Colorado and Mississippi. (She grew up in Brazil though)

I could easily see a PC who is a Qadiran half-orc who speaks Common and Kellish and not a word of Orc.... for that matter I could beleave in a Talden Half-Elf that spoke only Common....

Joke time!
What do you call a PC who speaks three languages?

answer:
Trilingual

What do you all a PC who speaks two languages?

answer:
Bilingual

What do you call a PC who speaks only one language?
answer:
TALDEN!

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Majuba wrote:

I don't agree - growing up half-, people will assume the character.speaks that language and try to use it with them. I find it.likely.they would.pick.it.up.from that. O'd more see a Qadiran half-orc speaking Orc and Kelish than Common and Kelish.

If a.character grows.up in a place with no offs around, it doesn't make much sense for.them to be half-orc in the first.place.

(Pardon the typos and grammar, silly phone)

Why the hell are enough Keleshites fluent in orcish that the half-orc kid gets talked to in it enough to pick it up secondhand? Seriously, to pick up a language without being actually taught requires being completely immersed in it, hearing it all the time. Random people trying to address the green kid in orcish wouldn't come close.

The Exchange 5/5

Jiggy wrote:
Majuba wrote:

I don't agree - growing up half-, people will assume the character.speaks that language and try to use it with them. I find it.likely.they would.pick.it.up.from that. O'd more see a Qadiran half-orc speaking Orc and Kelish than Common and Kelish.

If a.character grows.up in a place with no offs around, it doesn't make much sense for.them to be half-orc in the first.place.

(Pardon the typos and grammar, silly phone)

Why the hell are enough Keleshites fluent in orcish that the half-orc kid gets talked to in it enough to pick it up secondhand? Seriously, to pick up a language without being actually taught requires being completely immersed in it, hearing it all the time. Random people trying to address the green kid in orcish wouldn't come close.

well.... I guess we have to explain why a half-orc gets common and orcish. IMHO this is just another example of having reality altered to fit game rules.

;)

we do it all the time!

5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Jiggy wrote:


Why the hell are enough Keleshites fluent in orcish that the half-orc kid gets talked to in it enough to pick it up secondhand? Seriously, to pick up a language without being actually taught requires being completely immersed in it, hearing it all the time. Random people trying to address the green kid in orcish wouldn't come close.

Oh, I don't know, maybe because there's an orc tribe nearby that they interact with enough for.there to be a halforc child? Kids don't appear out of nowhere.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Majuba: would you be more amiable to a half-orc kellid warrior knowing Common, Orc, AND Hallit as starting languages? Would that make more sense to you?

4/5 5/55/55/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis

Majuba wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


Why the hell are enough Keleshites fluent in orcish that the half-orc kid gets talked to in it enough to pick it up secondhand? Seriously, to pick up a language without being actually taught requires being completely immersed in it, hearing it all the time. Random people trying to address the green kid in orcish wouldn't come close.
Oh, I don't know, maybe because there's an orc tribe nearby that they interact with enough for.there to be a halforc child? Kids don't appear out of nowhere.

Yeah, but not all fathers stick around to find out about the kid.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Majuba wrote:
Jiggy wrote:


Why the hell are enough Keleshites fluent in orcish that the half-orc kid gets talked to in it enough to pick it up secondhand? Seriously, to pick up a language without being actually taught requires being completely immersed in it, hearing it all the time. Random people trying to address the green kid in orcish wouldn't come close.
Oh, I don't know, maybe because there's an orc tribe nearby that they interact with enough for.there to be a halforc child? Kids don't appear out of nowhere.

To reinforce nosig's example:

My mom's parents were both native Romanians.
My mom was born and raised in America, in Devil's Lake, ND. A small town.
Her parents did everything they could to reserve Romanian as a secret language for themselves, NOT teaching it to their 3 children.
From what my mom explained, none of the three spoke more than a few, rare, words from Romanian, but speaking English with only a US accent.

So, yes, it is eminently possible to not learn the language spoken by your parents, especially, for a half-breed, if only one of them speaks it. Why would Daddy Orc speak Orcish if his spouse is human and does not?

We won't even go into the half-orc kids who do not know their Orcish parent, due to ... Orc ...

So, you grow up with your poor mom, who has never been married, but your father was either an Orcish raider (common) or an Orcish trader (huh?), who came through town once, and you were born several months later... Where would you learn Orc?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm up for the option too. But then, I'm always up for more options.

It does seem strange that someone living in land of linorms, (very far from Taldor) automatically knows Skald and Taldane, but if they have an ounce of blood from out of town (aasimar, sylph, elf, anything), they suddenly don't know Skald anymore - but still know Taldane.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Just another bump. I wonder if John is still interested in this idea?

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

It's very possible that Inner Sea Races will provide an official fix.

At least, that's what I'm hoping. :)

Silver Crusade 3/5

Kalindlara wrote:

It's very possible that Inner Sea Races will provide an official fix.

At least, that's what I'm hoping. :)

Oooh. I hadn't considered that possibility.

Silver Crusade 1/5 Contributor

The Fox wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:

It's very possible that Inner Sea Races will provide an official fix.

At least, that's what I'm hoping. :)

Oooh. I hadn't considered that possibility.

<3

Shadow Lodge 4/5

The Half- races already get access to things their parent races get (feats, prestige classes, favored class boni, etc.). Why not just allow them to pick an ethnicity like their human parent? Then there wouldn't be any confusing swapping going on.


I just realized my tiefling has an illegal language: Osiriani, his native tongue. Since "all human languages" is not an entry in the tiefling bonus languages (Why?!), I should have spent a skill point in Linguistics to allow him to know the tongue he's been speaking for the last 68 years. I'll have to talk to a GM about retroactively moving a skill point to Linguistics to fix the problem.

5/5 RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

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As a tiefling you wouldn't get Osiriani for free, but the PFS Campaign Guide adds all modern languages, in the Inner Sea World Guide, to the list of bonus languages that you can choose because of a high starting INT score.

If your intelligence score isn't high enough to get Osiriani as a bonus language just wait until the next time you level to put a point into linguistics.


Brian Lefebvre wrote:

As a tiefling you wouldn't get Osiriani for free, but the PFS Campaign Guide adds all modern languages, in the Inner Sea World Guide, to the list of bonus languages that you can choose because of a high starting INT score.

If your intelligence score isn't high enough to get Osiriani as a bonus language just wait until the next time you level to put a point into linguistics.

Oh thank Sarenrae. He can speak his native language legally! Yay!

Shadow Lodge 2/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I like the rule set about starting languages from Inner Sea World Guide. It mentions that the races start out with Common and either their racial or ethnic language to start with.

Personally: If my Half-Garundi of elven descent were allowed to have started play with that option, she would have known only Common and Osiriani to start with-her ethnic language(Before Int mod comes into the equation).

Dark Archive 4/5 5/5 ****

I think I could agree with this proposal.... Makes a lot of sense. Haven't thought about it too much, but I cannot really see where it would abused.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I am fine with the proposal. Makes good RP sense and I fail to find any circumstance where an ethnic language would break a game.

Grand Lodge 5/5

I see no problem with this suggestion.


I also agree with this proposal!

Have there also been any considerations for mixed human ethnicity? Half-Keleshite, Half-Ulfen... which language does that character get? Kelish or Skald? Both?


I like it.

2/5 *

Mechanically to be half of one ethnicity and half of another you need to trait for it and the bonus for that is the other language from your other ethnicity.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Add my thumbs up!

Scarab Sages 4/5

I like this idea as well. Anything that promotes being familiar with and incorporating Golarion lore into PFS characters, I'll probably be in favor of. This has very little mechanical impact, but it goes a long way toward helping a character feel like they belong.

EDIT: Also, this thread made me realize that when I did a 1st level rebuild on my Half-orc Brawler and lowered his Int from 13 to 10 (since he no longer needed it for prereqs), I forgot to remove Varisian from his list of languages. I hadn't played him in a while and actually just this past week played his first game at level 2, so I can't even go back and put a rank in Linguistics. This makes me a little sad, as the raised by the Sczarni former "Bill Collector" Enforcer no longer speaks his people's language. At least for two more scenarios, until I can take Linguistics at level 3.

Dark Archive 1/5 5/5

Hmm wrote:
Add my thumbs up!

+1

Silver Crusade 4/5

In favour of this

+1

Grand Lodge 2/5

Sounds like a great idea.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Do Undead threads about Half-breeds also get to choose an ethnic language?

Either way, I support this proposal.

Another great addition to the Campaign Clarifications document as well.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

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It's a good thread necro!

And an excellent bump for a proposal deserving of more consideration.

Hmm

4/5

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I somehow missed this thread the first time. I agree with the proposal. It doesn't have any obvious disruptive effects and promotes roleplay.

Dataphiles 3/5

This proposal is a great idea that I've wished I could implement on multiple characters. +1


I would definitely like to hear back from leadership on this one. Languages are one of those things that is pretty much RP based and has very little room to be abused.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

I also like this proposal. Virtually no down side, a good upside.

I just created a half orc character where I had to really strain his background to justify him speaking Orcish. And I kind of wanted him to be Shoanti but just couldn't afford the point in linguistics so he ended up Taldan instead.

5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So Paul's situation here is a great example of how half-orcs and half-elves may *not* speak their 'native' language - outsider syndrome. Half-orc Shoanti are common enough (Belkzen being right next door) - but I can totally see the Quahs not teaching Shoanti to these half-breed children, and only speaking to them in Common, as they would an outsider. Even if their parent(s) taught them it, without practice it wouldn't stick all that much. There's certainly role-play potential in *that*.

My point (now and before): I like the increased role-play potential, but intensely dislike the disruption to a core assumption about something as basic as language. While there are situations where half-breeds may be isolated from elf or orc peoples/languages, there are entirely reasonable explanations for why they may still pick up those languages. And also good reasons why they may need to exert effort (skill points) to acquire their second native language (after common). I don't see a logical inevitability, nor a pressing role-play reason to make such a change.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Majuba, I have read and reread your post above, and I guess I'm confused about it.

I have a half-orc, Anik, raised in a human Kellid village by his human grandparents after both of his parents died. Anik's half-orc father died in battle while Anik's human mother was still pregnant. Anik's mother died in childbirth. Her parents raised Anik since he was an infant. Neither of them speak Orcish.

Please explain why Anik speaks Common and Orcish while everyone around him speaks Common and Hallit. Who taught him Orcish? Why was he unable to learn Hallit?

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