Remember, if the paladin willingly hurts someone who is good, the paladin falls. :D
Doesn't say that in the code. Only says if they willingly commit an evil act. Hurting another person who is good isn't necessarily an evil act.
Or were you joking?
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For the Paladin. Sometimes the difficult thing is choosing a Hard Right. Calling X's loyalty to family what it is: An excuse to harbor evil in the hearth. For the sake of the Paladin's Honor (a key tenant of Iomadae, no?) he may have to forsake his own love (that is, MAKE A SACRIFICE!!!) to protect some greater morality.
If "A" Truly TRULY TRULY loves the Paladin they will always be there for them. "Your heart is breaking, and mine breaks with you, though you don't know it" kind of shtick. They may never 'ride into the sunset' they do remain devoted friends and that is a kind of love, too.
But, back to X. And the paladin. Everything X lives amongst is evil. Salvery, Devil Worship. That kind of exposure will adjust the sight picture for X. Suddenly, a vigourous torturing of a wayward/willful servant is seen as "Well, they deserved it for not following instructions." You see, LAW without Mercy or Justice can be too easily twisted into Evil. Especially when law can be written to be an avenue for Evil. "Slaves Can be tortured to Death as they have no lives, save what their Master provides." Sounds good, yeah?
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Ah, nothing make my heart fuzzy like Paladin threads that don't go south and love triangles decahedrons.
*Happily munches on popcorns*
By the way, A sounds like someone that would follow the extremely emotionally unstable goddess of star-crossed lovers, romantic tragedies and suicides.* (Always a good excuse to throw Naderi into the mix).
While A just killing herself is something I think would be unnecessary drama, jerk move on the Paladin, and generally an unsatisfying (read, downer ending :( ) resolution, you could use it as an inspiration for how A reacts as she realizes that Paladin likes X.
* If A is a follower of Shelyn, this is both so appropriate and so hearth-wrenching sad. D:
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Naderi is strangely growing closer to the goddess of undeath, Urgathoa, due to Naderi's belief that love lasts beyond death, a position that Urgathoa can support.
This my new favorite sentence.
Threesome.
You're welcome.
Well played!
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Wizard casts Simulacrum on the Paladin, instructing the Simulacrum to love A. Wizard casts Simulacrum on X, instructing the Simulacrum to convert for the Paladin. Wizard begins dating X*.
And then magic solved everything!
*Obviously, if there's a Sorcerer who knows the spell, this step will go over much better with X.
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Wizard casts Simulacrum on the Paladin, instructing the Simulacrum to love A. Wizard casts Simulacrum on X, instructing the Simulacrum to convert for the Paladin. Wizard begins dating X*.
And then magic solved everything!
*Obviously, if there's a Sorcerer who knows the spell, this step will go over much better with X.
Simulacrum, wrecking games of all styles since 19XX!
- Torger
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Once A commits suicide, give her the ghost template.
Have you thought about having a love spell go awry, with wacky consequences for the three of them?
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Am I the only one who feels for poor A? Friendzoned. Ugh.
I say that A wakes up, moves on, and finds a man/woman (still couldn't figure the genders or gender preferences by the original post) and comes back with hottie Q on his/her arm.
Not only will A find someone who actually appreciates them for who they are and doesn't feed them any "just not in that way" garbage, but they might just be a better looker, too.
Because the best form of revenge is when Q has a better pair of letters on her than the Pally...or a bigger D, you know, whatever A's into.
And if that sparks jealousy from the Pally he/she never expected would arise (those annoying friend-zoners, regardless of gender, always seem only interested when you actually move on), all the better, because now he/she actually would have to work to pull A from Q, which totally flips the script.
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You do know that the paladin code prevents the triangle right?
"A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
A love interest is neither a henchman, a follower, or a cohort. These imply people who are meant to represent you or do your will in a meaningful way, NOT people who you are attracted to. In addition, one of the many other paladin threads pointed out that allies is actually a thing separate from the Paladin Code, and thus doesn't provoke an auto-fall.
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But it's okay to court / marry a non LG aligned individual?A love interest is neither a henchman, a follower, or a cohort. These imply people who are meant to represent you or do your will in a meaningful way, NOT people who you are attracted to. In addition, one of the many other paladin threads pointed out that allies is actually a thing separate from the Paladin Code, and thus doesn't provoke an auto-fall.You do know that the paladin code prevents the triangle right?
"A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
Well, let's look at the code in this case!
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Yep, nothing there about Lawful Good being the only alignment you can date in. But, for sake of argument, let us also look at the Associates clause, and see what it says!
While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil. A paladin should seek an atonement spell periodically during such an unusual alliance, and should end the alliance immediately should she feel it is doing more harm than good. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.
Well, if you can risk your life with anyone who's not evil, then I think it's safe to say that you can probably marry anyone who's not evil. Yes, the two are admittedly different. But not by much. After all, you're trusting your well-being (whether emotional or physical) to another individual in either case.
EDIT: And for the record, here is exactly where I'm pulling from: Paladin PRD
I personally prefer the direction Girl Genius has gone with this. Both Gil and Tarvek love Agatha. Both respect each other's abilities and see each other as friends, although they also recognize that they are rivals both romantically and politically. Given that the world is going to hell in a handbasket, all three have come to an unspoken agreement that they put their love triangle aside for now and work to save Europa from being utterly destroyed by Mad Science.
I think we've seen some signs that Tarvek is starting to care about Gil, too, so many their rivalry's eroding (at least on a personal level). Of course, Tarvek's kinda outta the picture right now, so who knows?
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You do know that the paladin code prevents the triangle right?
"A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
da f+!+ kinda relationships you in man
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You do know that the paladin code prevents the triangle right?
"A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
"Henchman" is not a term I would use to describe a significant other. Followers and Cohorts are specific types of NPCs granted to you by the Leadership feat. Also not necessarily significant others.
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Also, if A and X actually met, fell even harder for one another than they did the paladin, ran off together and left the Pally alone, that would be a nice twist.
Really, anything that burns the friend zoner is fine with me.
Honestly, you'd think a lawful good character with a code of frickin honor would open their mouth the second any hinting at attraction popped up and squash that fire before it got out of control.
...and I don't know about you, but to me, being told in a roundabout way that someone finds me ugly hurts like a mother$@&#+r.
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"Slaves Can be tortured to Death as they have no lives, save what their Master provides." Sounds good, yeah?
Because Hellknights are the best. There's actually an Order devoted to making sure people function in their place in society. Slaves are purchased to do work, not fulfill your sick desires. You mess with a slave just for the hell of it? Order of the Chain rolls into town.
The Order of the Chain hold the belief that a strict social order where every person plays a distinct and crucial role is essential for preserving the integrity of the social fabric—much like how a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, a society is only as strong as its weakest member. Thus, anyone who would renege from their social duty and seek to escape or take advantage of the social bond must be hunted down and chastised severely. Prisoners, slaves, servants are bound to their masters by this steely credo, but the chain binds both ways: masters, slave owners, ship captains, and merchants who exploit or waste their people risk the wrath of Order of the Chain.
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Also, if A and X actually met, fell even harder for one another than they did the paladin, ran off together and left the Pally alone, that would be a nice twist.
Really, anything that burns the friend zoner is fine with me.
Honestly, you'd think a lawful good character with a code of frickin honor would open their mouth the second any hinting at attraction popped up and squash that fire before it got out of control.
** spoiler omitted **
"Most marriages do not break down from lack of love, but of friendship." ~Nietzche
A Paladin's got to be on their best behaviour, particularly when dealing with others, and candor can be applied with tact. Paladin should be straight with both parties involved. Then again, with Iomedae as their patron, they'll still probably sound like that have something stiff lodged in a sensitive location. (I can't take any of the "Lawful Good" deities of the major Golarion gods seriously.)
For the Paladin. Sometimes the difficult thing is choosing a Hard Right. Calling X's loyalty to family what it is: An excuse to harbor evil in the hearth. For the sake of the Paladin's Honor (a key tenant of Iomadae, no?) he may have to forsake his own love (that is, MAKE A SACRIFICE!!!) to protect some greater morality.
If "A" Truly TRULY TRULY loves the Paladin they will always be there for them. "Your heart is breaking, and mine breaks with you, though you don't know it" kind of shtick. They may never 'ride into the sunset' they do remain devoted friends and that is a kind of love, too.
But, back to X. And the paladin. Everything X lives amongst is evil. Salvery, Devil Worship. That kind of exposure will adjust the sight picture for X. Suddenly, a vigourous torturing of a wayward/willful servant is seen as "Well, they deserved it for not following instructions." You see, LAW without Mercy or Justice can be too easily twisted into Evil. Especially when law can be written to be an avenue for Evil. "Slaves Can be tortured to Death as they have no lives, save what their Master provides." Sounds good, yeah?
To be perfectly honest, you're not alone in finding the alignment system nothing short of existentially ridiculous the moment it's applied to the campaign setting (and likely before then), but hey, that's legacy issues for you, isn't it?
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Another shining example of Hellknights being the best, while we're on the subject.
Maidrayne Vox, Mistress of Blades of the Order of the Nail. The Order of the Nail concerns itself with quelling "savage" practices and bringing their idea of civilization to the inhabitants of the wild frontier.
Lawful Good. She's also a Centaur. It's just the best thing in Pathfinder.
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Another shining example of Hellknights being the best, while we're on the subject.
Maidrayne Vox, Mistress of Blades of the Order of the Nail. The Order of the Nail concerns itself with quelling "savage" practices and bringing their idea of civilization to the inhabitants of the wild frontier.
Lawful Good. She's also a Centaur. It's just the best thing in Pathfinder.
And with Hell as their role model, every Hellknight is just a "Well, Baalzebul would approve of it!" away from beating a pregnant halfling woman for information about a jay-walker.
When looking at the quality of a building, the stained glass, vaulted arches and flying buttresses lose their grandeur if you know the foundation stone is going to topple the whole thing at a moment's notice.
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I don't think you guys understand Hellknights very well.
They don't follow Hell's laws. They follow laws modeled after some of those from Hell.
It's similar to the United States. We don't follow ancient Roman laws (thank all that exists). We follow laws modeled after some of those from ancient Rome.
It's why we have a president instead of an emperor, for example.
EDIT: Also, because "Hellknights" were a title given to them before they had anything to do with Hell. (It was when they were a vigilante posse who took it upon themselves to hunt down a demon drug cult masquerading as a legitimate cult of enlightenment, and were disliked by the corrupt then-current powers-that-be.)
Here's the thing: some of the orders are evil, run by evil, yes. But Hellknights as a whole are focused on one thing: order. Some are even good. But that is not their purpose. Hell will most certainly do everything in their power to corrupt them - but that doesn't mean it'll succeed.
EDIT 2: To be clear, I didn't understand them, myself, until being forced to play an entire campaign with them, really dig into their history, and understand the driving motivation and force behind the organization as a whole, how it started, and what it has become (and how that relates to its origins and has changed from it).
I don't think the Hellknights are the most awesome.
I do think some of them rock hard.
(Notably: Order of the Scourge. Because of the brutal war in which all of Cheliax was going to be killed, and a majority vote was held, they followed the collective orders and helped establish Thrune as head. When she wanted to lavish them with the best Cheliax had to offer, they refused her and, while she was still stinging from the insult of their rejection, they built a new citadel looking right at Egorian, telling her, in no uncertain terms, "You are Empress, right up until we are convinced that whatever bloody civil war would happen if you weren't is less destructive and anarchic than you maintaining your position." without saying a word. They cannot be bought. Cannot be reasoned with. Hellknights are almost like the Terminators of Golarion: whether hero or villain (and they can be both or something else besides), they are implacable and hard as steel.)
And Asmodeus would probably support them even if they didn't work as muscle for Cheliax. Pure order is like the finest cheese to him.
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I'd suggest writing up a few scenarios that end well for A, and a few that end well for X, as well as some that end badly for both.
Then, pick the one you feel is going to play out best. Of course, you should take the Paladin player's feelings about all that to account.
Asmodeus still appreciates Lawful EVIL order more than Lawful Neutral order.
He wouldn't be a Lawful Evil deity if that wasn't true. And yes, Hellknights are the best.
I've still wondered what would be a good AP for a Paladin / Hellknight that I've been saving up for some time.
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Asmodeus still appreciates Lawful EVIL order more than Lawful Neutral order.
He wouldn't be a Lawful Evil deity if that wasn't true. And yes, Hellknights are the best.
I've still wondered what would be a good AP for a Paladin / Hellknight that I've been saving up for some time.
Kingmaker could be viable. "Bring order to the land, try to avoid a total bloodbath," seems to be a good modus operandi for that AP if you can get a group with characters to support that pursuit. Wrath of the Righteous fits too, but is kind of cliche for such a build. Most of the Varisian adventure paths don't support it that well, because Hellknights are unpopular there as I understand it from some setting books I've read.
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Really though, you can't give Hellknights a bad reputation just because they have Evil members. I'm not idolizing the Evil Hellknights, because they're usually not thinking purely of Order.
The sort of Hellknights that beat the Halfling woman for information are likely to kill the unborn child for no reason because the Halfling woman's battered confession is a biased, untrustworthy source of info.
They have Signifiers and members of the Order of the Godclaw to detect thoughts and enforce truth telling. The most expedient method of getting what she knows about the jaywalker, if you have reason to believe she knows, is to ask her if she knows, forcing her to tell the truth with magic, or if she resists that, then read her mind for the info. Then, if she isn't an accomplice to the crime, you send her home to read The Guide To Not Raising Your Child Like a Savage.
The biggest issue, as always, is time. If you can run a lot of this one on one without the rest of the players waiting you have a lot more freedom than if you have 15 minutes until they get back from buying cast food. A lot of it depends on play style and what the group is. If you are all very pressed for time KEEP IT SIMPLE! Don't make players watch the Pally show.
As much as I swoon about non-Evil Hellknights, I personally feel that being a Hellknight would conflict with the Paladin code after a while. You would either subvert the Law to do Good, or commit Evil acts to uphold the Law eventually. Lawful Good Hellknights don't have the privilege of never doing Evil. They just do so much Good so often that it outweighs the Evil they have to commit to maintain order.
Feel free to prove me wrong though, I'll back anyone who makes a Hellknight character. Don't forget to take an Oath Against Chaos in your glorious pursuit of justice!
The three of them abscond away to a land that accepts polygamy, so their complicated arrangements do not infringe on their lawful sensibilities...
Happy ever after, right?
Could have A lie to the Paladins superiors that she is carrying his child in order to save him from the danger of falling that Xs Asmodean connections bring.
Edit: Since Good/Evil and Law/Chaos are separate, can a paladin have a lover or mistress? It might be non lawful but the opposite of that is chaos, not evil so the paladin might not fall.
Don't let is slide that just being around X is likely to cause a problem for the paladin, at least by the working of the Paladin's code on conduct - which states that associating with evil is likely to require frequent atonement, and is only continual as long as they are working together to stop a greater evil.
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As much as I swoon about non-Evil Hellknights, I personally feel that being a Hellknight would conflict with the Paladin code after a while. You would either subvert the Law to do Good, or commit Evil acts to uphold the Law eventually. Lawful Good Hellknights don't have the privilege of never doing Evil. They just do so much Good so often that it outweighs the Evil they have to commit to maintain order.
Feel free to prove me wrong though, I'll back anyone who makes a Hellknight character. Don't forget to take an Oath Against Chaos in your glorious pursuit of justice!
im thinking I would do best in a gestalt game where you could remain a full paladin and take something like warpriest in there as well
That and/or play in a kingmaker or sandbox game where you live and adventure in a place where you make the laws.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know if the lore is explicit or not, but, per James Jacobs: those Hellknights in charge of paladins know they're paladins and thus work to send them on missions that will not violate their Code of Conduct.
EDIT: to make a correction, as what I'd written was... not correct.
I don't know if the lore is explicit or not, but, per James Jacobs: those Hellknights in charge of paladins know they're paladins and thus work to send them on missions that will not violate their Code of Conduct.
EDIT: to make a correction, as what I'd written was... not correct.
That's amazing. Paladin/Hellknights confirmed best characters.
Problematic, but I guess it's up to the DM to manage such. I wouldn't put the Paladin / Hellknight in situations that'd force him to fall, but I would make it clear that he's going to have a tougher time than a Fighter / Hellknight, even more so if his higher-ups are Evil. However, it also presents options for both the Lawful Neutral and Lawful Good Hellknights who could judge the Evil ones for caring more about their own selves rather than the pursuit of proper order. After all, the main alignment of a Hellknight is supposed to be Lawful Neutral, but Lawful Good abides by the rules more often than Lawful Evil from what I've seen and heard.
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I haven't read most of the thread, but...
You do know that the paladin code prevents the triangle right?
"A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
Associates is not a part of the paladin code. It has its own separate headline under class features, right after (but not part of) Code of Conduct.
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So the issue is not "associate with evil" as such. It's "associate (nudge, wink) with someone who, though not evil, worships an evil god and thus tolerates evil." With bonus in-law problems thrown in for good measure.
Yeah see that t word in there?
A paladin shouldn't be doing that.
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions, and a paladin should have convictions in spades.
Tolerating evil is not an acceptable trait, not just for a paladin but for someone with a good alignment period.
So the issue is not "associate with evil" as such. It's "associate (nudge, wink) with someone who, though not evil, worships an evil god and thus tolerates evil." With bonus in-law problems thrown in for good measure.
Yeah see that t word in there?
A paladin shouldn't be doing that.
Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions, and a paladin should have convictions in spades.
Tolerating evil is not an acceptable trait, not just for a paladin but for someone with a good alignment period.
That's why paladins smite anyone who detects as Evil, right?
I haven't read most of the thread, but...
Associates is not a part of the paladin code. It has its own separate headline under class features, right after (but not part of) Code of Conduct.You do know that the paladin code prevents the triangle right?
"A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."
An important, and often overlooked truth. I blame the SRD. Its setup confuses people who check the paladin page for information on their code of conduct. I actually wrote and asked them to fix it, a while ago, but I've yet to hear back from them :C
-Nearyn