Fighter / Archer feat selection.


Advice


I started a new PC a few games ago (the third in this campaign ^^) and I chosed the Archer archetype for the Fighter.
Thing is, I already picked all the good archery feats out there and I have problems with filling the higher slots.

Here is my feat tree so far. (I'm a lvl 8 human with dual talent trait)

1- point blank shot
- precise shot
2- weapon focus
3- quick draw
4- rapid shot
5- deadly aim
6- clustered shot
7- many shot
8- snap shot
9- improved snap shot
10- combat reflex
11- imporved precise shot
12- greater snap shot
13-
14-
15-
16- pinpoint targeting
17-
18-
19-
20-

As you can see, I still need 7 feats of which I can already pick the 3 weapon focus/spec left and toughness.
It leaves me with 3 and the order I will place them so a little outside help is needed.
I thought of going shield focus to gain the deflec feats with my buckler or crit tree but with 19-20 at best, I'm not sure it's worth it.
Anyway if you have ideas then be sure throw them this way.
Thx o7


Exceptional Pull should be in there somewhere!

You also really, really, really, really want Iron Will.

You could probably take Fast Learner at 1st level if you don't pick Dual Talent, that'd allow you to act as though your INT/CON were +1 higher in terms of SP/HP.

I also fail to see Improved Critical -- it is ALWAYS worth it.

Another thing to consider is Point-Blank Shot Master... or do Archers get that for free? I forget.


Hammer the gap can be a nice damage booster, that's all I can think of off the top of my head. Save boosting feats can be nice to have if you can't think of anything else as well.


Point Blank Master so you don't draw AoOs when making a ranged attack while threatened.

Second Iron Will and Improved Iron Will.

Since you took the Archer Archetype, some of the Improved combat maneuver feats since you can do them at range. (Isn't that about all the archetype gives you?) Or do they get the benefit of those built in?

Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Spec.

Disruptive and Spellbreaker would be hilarious when combined with Greater Snapshot and Point Blank Master.

Toughness.

Nimble Moves = 5' step in difficult terrain. Less important with Point Blank Master.

Blind-Fight is always good. Forget the miss chance reroll, not losing your Dex when blinded is huge.

Improved Initiative.

Skill Focus (Perception).

Those are just off the top of my head, and don't even address stuff you can do to improve your out of combat utility.


+32 for Iron Will how could I forget that one.
Archer give you point blank master at lvl 9 so useless.
Blind fight would be nice if I didn't had improved precise shot at lvl 11. :S
I'm already lvl 8 so I can't change my traits now and Improved critical doesn't stack with Bracers of falcon's aim which give you +3 perception, 19-20x3 and +1 AB with bow/crossbow.
(forgot to specify that I already had 19-20 as it is, sorry!!)
Skill focus (perception) could be nice but my bracers give me 3 and hawkeye give me +1 at lvl 2 and every 4 lvl after so I'll keep it for last if I don't find anythinf else.
Combat maneuvers feat could be worth it since I get a -4 on the roll for being ranged but the real problem would be to choose since I get 4 different CM at different lvls.
I currently have sunder and feint. (to help my knife master buddy apply his 24 dice per attack ^^)
Rest is fine and I will put them with the others I'm considering atm
Thx for your answers.
Keep 'em comming \o/

Silver Crusade

weapon specialization + penetrating strikes


rorek55 wrote:
weapon specialization + penetrating strikes

All the wepon focus/spec are already in the build I just need the order in which I will choose them. ^^

READ FIRST POST PLEASE !

Silver Crusade

I'd swap quickdraw with Iron will,

and eh, I'd rather see weapon spec/greter before snap shots. You shouldn't be that close most of the time. At level 9 it won't matter if they get close to you.


rorek55 wrote:

I'd swap quickdraw with Iron will,

and eh, I'd rather see weapon spec/greter before snap shots. You shouldn't be that close most of the time. At level 9 it won't matter if they get close to you.

For the third time I'm lvl 8 ^^

EDIT

13- iron will (or at 11 but the ability to ignone anything except total conceal/cover is vry strong indeed)
14- weapon spec.
15- toughness

17- hammer the gap
18- improved init.
19- g. weapon focus
20- g. weapon spec.

Any thoughts ?!


Have you considered going outside the box. I assume you have a decent strength for composite bow damage. Taking power attack isn't a bad Idea for when the DM uses wind wall or Fickle winds to ruin your fun. A fighter + 2 Handed weapon + Power attack can still dish out some pain when your unable to use your bow.

Just a thought. Also you might look into Arcane Strike. Its pretty easy to get a spell like that has a CL = your fighter level. Its not like your using that swift action for anything else. An extra 5 damage a shot is pretty decent for 2 feats.


EXCEPTIONAL

PULL

Scarab Sages

Are you 100% committed to the archer archetype? Because it frankly sucks. The weapon training replacement prevents you from using gloves of dueling, and if you want to use ranged maneuvers you can just take the targeting feats.

You are better off as a core fighter than an archer, or better yet an Eldritch Guardian or Lore Warden.

Scarab Sages

Secret Wizard wrote:

EXCEPTIONAL

PULL

Exceptional Pull isn't that exceptional for a feat. It gives you nothing that 1000 gp for an Adaptive Bow doesn't already do.


Secret Wizard wrote:

EXCEPTIONAL

PULL

ADAPATIVE

PROPERTY


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

EXCEPTIONAL

PULL

ADAPATIVE

PROPERTY

Very much this. Adaptive makes Exceptional Pull sit in the corner and cry while thinking about how unnecessary it is for anybody to take it ever again.

Iron Will has already been mentioned. Improved is also not a terrible idea, as has been mentioned. I know you're already planning on getting Weapon Specialization and Greater.

Don't overlook the critical feats (for instance, staggering and stunning critical). And yeah if you can, retrain Quick Draw into Point Blank Master once you have Weapon Specialization. YMMV on Pinpoint Targeting. I'm not sure it's really worth the feat. It really depends on how often you miss when making your highest attack. I can't imagine it would really be that often and if it's close, you can always not use Rapid Shot and/or Manyshot that round.


Imbicatus wrote:

Are you 100% committed to the archer archetype? Because it frankly sucks. The weapon training replacement prevents you from using gloves of dueling, and if you want to use ranged maneuvers you can just take the targeting feats.

You are better off as a core fighter than an archer, or better yet an Eldritch Guardian or Lore Warden.

Oh, I missed the Archer Archetype. Yeah, that's unfortunate. Straight fighter makes a better overall archer than Archer does.

It's not even worth getting the combat maneuver feats to synergize with Trick Shot because you'd have to burn a feat on the prerequisite, too.

No Gloves of Dueling really was icing on the cake for finishing off the Archer archetype. To be fair though, I absolutely hate that FAQ. I really can't think of any conceivable reason that Archer's version of weapon training shouldn't count because all it really did was change the name. Maybe you can convince your GM to be nice and let it work.

On the bright side, there's no need to pick up Point Blank Master. Still, retrain Quick Draw to something else if you can.


Chill Phil wrote:

Combat maneuvers feat could be worth it since I get a -4 on the roll for being ranged but the real problem would be to choose since I get 4 different CM at different lvls.

I currently have sunder and feint. (to help my knife master buddy apply his 24 dice per attack ^^)

Feinting isn't going to help your Rogue at all, unless you have Greater Feint.

You will already threaten with Snap Shot and Improved, which will help your buddy flank (though you won't). As Dragon mentioned above, it wouldn't be a horrible idea to take Power Attack for contingency reasons. That knocks out the prereq for Improved Sunder, though I'm personally loathe to sunder potential treasure. YMMV.

I still think you're better off considering critical feats, though with your number of possible attacks, Hammer the Gap is a solid choice.


fretgod99 wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Are you 100% committed to the archer archetype? Because it frankly sucks. The weapon training replacement prevents you from using gloves of dueling, and if you want to use ranged maneuvers you can just take the targeting feats.

You are better off as a core fighter than an archer, or better yet an Eldritch Guardian or Lore Warden.

Oh, I missed the Archer Archetype. Yeah, that's unfortunate. Straight fighter makes a better overall archer than Archer does.

It's not even worth getting the combat maneuver feats to synergize with Trick Shot because you'd have to burn a feat on the prerequisite, too.

No Gloves of Dueling really was icing on the cake for finishing off the Archer archetype. To be fair though, I absolutely hate that FAQ. I really can't think of any conceivable reason that Archer's version of weapon training shouldn't count because all it really did was change the name. Maybe you can convince your GM to be nice and let it work.

On the bright side, there's no need to pick up Point Blank Master. Still, retrain Quick Draw to something else if you can.

Unfortunately, everything below lvl 8 is set in stone and can't be changed on a whim.

Same goes with the archetype and everyting class related.
I took pinpoint targeting for extreme range engagements but it's true that it's uses are very few and far between.
I'll give PA a try since it can't be bad to have a bit of versability.
Nice idea Dragonamedrake.
Thx

I might put IW and PA before g. snapshot but I'd like a few opinions on the matter.

13- iron will
14- power attack (will come in handy with my bastard sword)
15- weapon spec.
16- hammer the gap
17- toughness
18- improved init.
19- g. weapon focus
20- g. weapon spec.


I suggest some multiclassing.

Take some levels in Alchemist with the Grenedier Archetype. Take the Explosive Missile Discovery. You will be able to put both Alchemal Bombs and Alchemal Items like Alchemist Fire, Acid, or just plain old lamp oil into your arrows. So now you shoot exploding arrows.

Your Feinting will serve you well if you yourself can Sneak Attack. If you take some levels in something with Sneak Attack you will do extra damage. You could also take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses and make whole crowds of people flatfooted and then inflict Sneak Attack Damage on all of them. 2 levels in Ninja, and you can take the Vanishing Trick, while Invisible, you get Sneak Attack Damage pretty much automatically.

Take a level in Wizard then start taking levels in Arcane Archer. You won't be the Blaster Wizard of the party anytime soon, but there are a lot of utility Wizard Spells, and you will have tactical capabilities your party Wizard won't have. With Imbue Arrow, your Fireball won't have the damage as the Wizard's, but yours will have a much longer range. Plus, if you get high enough level, you can Imbue an Arrow with Antimagic Shell. Nobody else can cast Antimagic Shell as a spell with Range.

These are some interesting directions you can take your character in that will make him a lot more powerful.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I suggest some multiclassing.

Take some levels in Alchemist with the Grenedier Archetype. Take the Explosive Missile Discovery. You will be able to put both Alchemal Bombs and Alchemal Items like Alchemist Fire, Acid, or just plain old lamp oil into your arrows. So now you shoot exploding arrows.

Your Feinting will serve you well if you yourself can Sneak Attack. If you take some levels in something with Sneak Attack you will do extra damage. You could also take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses and make whole crowds of people flatfooted and then inflict Sneak Attack Damage on all of them. 2 levels in Ninja, and you can take the Vanishing Trick, while Invisible, you get Sneak Attack Damage pretty much automatically.

Take a level in Wizard then start taking levels in Arcane Archer. You won't be the Blaster Wizard of the party anytime soon, but there are a lot of utility Wizard Spells, and you will have tactical capabilities your party Wizard won't have. With Imbue Arrow, your Fireball won't have the damage as the Wizard's, but yours will have a much longer range. Plus, if you get high enough level, you can Imbue an Arrow with Antimagic Shell. Nobody else can cast Antimagic Shell as a spell with Range.

These are some interesting directions you can take your character in that will make him a lot more powerful.

I cant tell if this is the worst advice ever or the best troll post ever. Either way... brovo...


Dragonamedrake wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I suggest some multiclassing.

Take some levels in Alchemist with the Grenedier Archetype. Take the Explosive Missile Discovery. You will be able to put both Alchemal Bombs and Alchemal Items like Alchemist Fire, Acid, or just plain old lamp oil into your arrows. So now you shoot exploding arrows.

Your Feinting will serve you well if you yourself can Sneak Attack. If you take some levels in something with Sneak Attack you will do extra damage. You could also take Dazzling Display and Shatter Defenses and make whole crowds of people flatfooted and then inflict Sneak Attack Damage on all of them. 2 levels in Ninja, and you can take the Vanishing Trick, while Invisible, you get Sneak Attack Damage pretty much automatically.

Take a level in Wizard then start taking levels in Arcane Archer. You won't be the Blaster Wizard of the party anytime soon, but there are a lot of utility Wizard Spells, and you will have tactical capabilities your party Wizard won't have. With Imbue Arrow, your Fireball won't have the damage as the Wizard's, but yours will have a much longer range. Plus, if you get high enough level, you can Imbue an Arrow with Antimagic Shell. Nobody else can cast Antimagic Shell as a spell with Range.

These are some interesting directions you can take your character in that will make him a lot more powerful.

I cant tell if this is the worst advice ever or the best troll post ever. Either way... brovo...

I take it you don't think I am giving the OP excellent advice. I am curious as to why you seem to think so.

Convince me, and I will say, "Bravo."


I think I will continue to bask in the distinction of giving the worst advice ever and expand upon my advice earlier.

I advise you, Chill Phil to expand upon your Trick Shot Class Ability to Feint in Combat. I advise that you build upon that by getting and cultivating Sneak Attack. In your next 2 levels, you can be doing an additional 2d6 Sneak Attack Damage/arrow. You can raise your Bluff Skill Checks by a lot, and you can negate the -4 on the check.

I advise you to find a magic item, the Mask of Stony Demeanor. It will give you a +5 on Bluff Checks made to Feint in combat. It costs 500gp.

I recommend your next Feat should be Combat Expertise, followed by Improved Feint. You will be able to Feint every round and get your Sneak Attack every round.

I think your next level should be in Brawler, Snakebite Striker Archetype, followed by a level in Rogue. You have Snap Shot, so you can threaten and flank opponents with you bow, but you would still take the -4 using Trick Shot. But with your level in Brawler, you will have Improved Unarmed Strike, and that means you no longer have to use Trick Shot to Feint in melee. No more -4, and you can still make your real attacks with your bow. You were talking about the need to raise your Will Save, but you probably also need to raise your Reflex Save, too, since both your Reflex and Will base saves are only +2. With a level in Brawler and one in Rogue, your Reflex Save will go up +4. Your Fort Save will go up +2, more than it would if you kept taking levels in Fighter.

You might consider acquiring a Robe of Needles. It is a 1000gp magic item that lets you shoot 6 needles/day, 1/round. They aren't arrows, and they only do 1 point of damage/needle +1 point Bleed. But they resolve as ranged touch attacks. If you are Feinting to make opponents Flatfooted, to get Sneak Attack, you might be making some Ranged Touch Attacks against opponents' Flatfooted AC. And my character doing that would just make me smile.

I'm recommending Rogue and not Ninja. I know that there is a lot of Rogue hate, but most of the Ninja Tricks involve using Ki, which you gain at the rate of 1 every other level and how many you start with depends on your charisma. And there is a decent chance you have been dumping charisma, since so many of us do. I like the idea of gaining lots of Ki points via 4 levels in Quinngong Drunken Master Monk, but now we are talking about an effect that takes at least 6 levels to achieve. I might recommend that to you if you were level 1, but you're level 8. I don't think that's for this character.

When I look at Rogue, for your Feinting, I recommend Honeyed Words, which, 1/day, allows you to roll your Bluff twice and take the better result. There are other Rogue Talents which sound useful for a character like yours, such as Combat Trick, which you can use to take Improved and/or Greater feint. There are lots of other Rogue Talents that build upon Bluff, Perception, and other skills, although most of those don't directly help your character in combat: they help in other roles, gathering information, uncovering clues, things like that. I don't know how much your party needs those kinds of skills, so I can't tell you how many Rogue levels you should take.

Once you have gone with Rogue as far as you want, I do recommend you take a level in Wizard, follwed by levels in Arcane Archer. For starters, you are talking about taking Iron Will. A level in Wizard will give you a +2 on your Will Saves, too, and give you other things. You will be able to cast spells on your arrows that will let them do more damage and accomplish other things. You will be able to do Energy Damage, shoot through Concealment or around Cover, make Ranged Touch Attacks, and eventually make a sort of Whirlwind Attack with your arrows. You will be able to Vanish this way, maybe turn Invisible, before you can actually cast it, you might acquire a Wand of Greater Invisibility, which will let you keep shooting arrows while invisible, and keep racking up that Sneak Attack Damage. After 3 levels in Arcane Archer, you could start taking levels in levels in Arcane Trickster.

It's up to you to decide whether you should. Your Sneak Attack will keep going up. Your Caster Level will rise faster. Your Will Saves go up faster. Your BAB will stagnate. If you campaign goes on long enough, you should take lots of levels in both, but that's a big if.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

EXCEPTIONAL

PULL

ADAPATIVE

PROPERTY

I think they stack.

Scarab Sages

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:

EXCEPTIONAL

PULL

ADAPATIVE

PROPERTY

I think they stack.

So what if they do? Exceptional pull only add 2 to the str of a bow and allows you to ignore the penalties for an over-str bow. It doesn't actually let you shoot at a higher str than you have.


Imbicatus wrote:
It doesn't actually let you shoot at a higher str than you have.

Doesn't it?

Exceptional Pull (Combat)Benefit(s) wrote:
When you wield a ranged weapon that you are proficient with and that has a strength rating, add 2 to the weapon's strength rating. You don't take a penalty on attack rolls for having a Strength modifier lower than the strength rating of a weapon, provided you're proficient with that weapon.

I don't see why it doesn't let you shoot at a higher St than you have. I think the presumption is that a strong archer is using the most powerful bow he has, and that the Exceptional Pull Feat is supposed to let you get even more performance out of the weapon you know so well, not particularly allow you to better improvise with a strange one.

Anyway, the bonus ceiling you are referring to isn't in the Feat description. What makes you think there is one?

Scarab Sages

The limitation isn't in the feat, it's in composite bows. You use your own STR Bonus or the STR bonus of the bow, which ever is lower. All exceptional pull does is to allow you to get more damage out of a low-STR bow, or negate the penalty of a over-str bow.

Longbow, Composite wrote:
You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.


I appreciate all the options you guys are throwing my way but I don't think I will multiclass any time soon mostly because it doesn't fit the background of the character and I don't play for maximum optimisation anyway.
Tbh, I prefer to stick with the idea I had for the character in the beginning then to make him into something he wasn't trainned or grew up with even if the character is a bit less powerful.
An example of that is him using a bastard sword two handed instead of just picking up a greatsword, it's fit the role I gave him and it's more believable.
While I don't realy dislike magic stuff and multiclass, I'm not a big fan of boosting everything with it just for the sake of it so I'm gonna stick with my archer untill it dies then I'll play something else ^^

Anyway, thanks to you guys my PC progression is complete.
\o/


Chill Phil wrote:
I don't think I will multiclass any time soon

That's cool.

Chill Phil wrote:
it doesn't fit the background of the character

Would you like to favor us with your character background?

Chill Phil wrote:
I don't play for maximum optimisation anyway.

My mistake, but I thought optimization was exactly what you are asking for. You are asking for advice on the next feats to take. What feat choices are you going to make if not optimal ones? In game terms and in terms or roleplaying, what direction are you taking your character?

Chill Phil wrote:
him using a bastard sword two handed instead of just picking up a greatsword,

For an archer, I'd recommend a 1-handed weapon like a long sword or a morning star, keeping your bow in 1 hand, able to drop your melee weapon as a free action as soon as you start shooting again. Without Exotic Weapon Proficiency, the Bastard Sword is 2 handed--you have to drop your bow to use it effectively--and you might as well use a Greatsword, except for your character concept.

But now, you have Snap Shot, so you have no need for that Bastard Sword. You can just keep shooting your bow whether you are at range or in melee.

Chill Phil wrote:
to make him into something he wasn't trainned or grew up with even if the character is a bit less powerful.

I must say I don't agree with your idea, here. Growing up and training get your character from level 0 to level 1. After that, your levels are awarded not by training, but by experience. In fact when EGG first created this game, they were called Experience Levels. I don't think it breaks any moral principal of roleplaying or character concept to multiclass and dip all you want.

Chill Phil wrote:
Anyway, thanks to you guys my PC progression is complete.

It was my pleasure. Good luck, and have fun.


Imbicatus wrote:

The limitation isn't in the feat, it's in composite bows. You use your own STR Bonus or the STR bonus of the bow, which ever is lower. All exceptional pull does is to allow you to get more damage out of a low-STR bow, or negate the penalty of a over-str bow.

Longbow, Composite wrote:
You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.

Okay, you convinced me. The language of the Feat doesn't seem to contradict the language of the bow description.


Exceptional Pull is a decent option for classes that have a fluctuating strength modifier (like a barbarian or a mutagen user) in a game where the GM for whatever reason doesn't allow the Adaptive enhancement. Other than that, Adaptive is the way to go.

Depending on your ability score spread I'd really consider picking up Iron Will earlier. Blowing will saves sucks and unless you put a decent amount of effort, fighters tend to be bad at them.


Weathered Warrior is a good take for any ranged character, since it allows you to get by your greatest weakness, wind.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Chill Phil wrote:
I don't think I will multiclass any time soon

That's cool.

Chill Phil wrote:
it doesn't fit the background of the character

Would you like to favor us with your character background?

Chill Phil wrote:
I don't play for maximum optimisation anyway.

My mistake, but I thought optimization was exactly what you are asking for. You are asking for advice on the next feats to take. What feat choices are you going to make if not optimal ones? In game terms and in terms or roleplaying, what direction are you taking your character?

Chill Phil wrote:
him using a bastard sword two handed instead of just picking up a greatsword,

For an archer, I'd recommend a 1-handed weapon like a long sword or a morning star, keeping your bow in 1 hand, able to drop your melee weapon as a free action as soon as you start shooting again. Without Exotic Weapon Proficiency, the Bastard Sword is 2 handed--you have to drop your bow to use it effectively--and you might as well use a Greatsword, except for your character concept.

But now, you have Snap Shot, so you have no need for that Bastard Sword. You can just keep shooting your bow whether you are at range or in melee.

Chill Phil wrote:
to make him into something he wasn't trainned or grew up with even if the character is a bit less powerful.

I must say I don't agree with your idea, here. Growing up and training get your character from level 0 to level 1. After that, your levels are awarded not by training, but by experience. In fact when EGG first created this game, they were called Experience Levels. I don't think it breaks any moral principal of roleplaying or character concept to multiclass and dip all you want.

Chill Phil wrote:
Anyway, thanks to you guys my PC progression is complete.
It was my pleasure. Good luck, and have fun.

I just wanted a few opinions on feats I could take for my higher levels, not optimizing anything seriously but anyway I got what I was looking for: a completed PC.

If I ever want tips on multiclassing a PC all ask you ^^

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