Goblin Squad Member
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Method: I attacked the same bandit with the spell wilting surge documented the dmg number and ran rinse and repeat on SAME BANDIT. I did this for 10 data points. I have wilting surge trained to 3.
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Result:
*=crit
___Charged staff +0 - 79,79,79,52,79,79,67,54,57,79* Total=704
Diminishing staff +2 - 79,53,79,79,79,56,79,79*,79,57 Total=719
The +0 has one matching keyword. The diminishing +2 has 3 matching keywords. This seem's like maybe there is a bug for staff dmg.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is actually quite interesting. you may be on to something.
I also just noticed the latest spreadsheets (which I think are for the next iteration of EE not the current one) show the damage factor of wilting surge has been reduced back to 1.18 which is not that much better than Plague Storm at 0.82 which has an area effect rather than burst.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ouch, another painful nerf. Is it going to retain the massive cooldown as well as the huge damage cut? Are wizards really this overpowered?
wizards are underpowerd if anything. I think anyone can see that if they are honest and just look at the offensive and defensive numbers. I don't understand why this is and can only hope that wiz will be getting some meta magic feats or summoned minions to balance their lack of dps and overall squishiness.
The lack of staff dmg increase per + I suspect is a different issue and most probably either a bug or an early attempt at stopping wiz's from killing too many achievement gates by AOEing low level mobs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That is actually quite interesting. you may be on to something.
I also just noticed the latest spreadsheets (which I think are for the next iteration of EE not the current one) show the damage factor of wilting surge has been reduced back to 1.18 which is not that much better than Plague Storm at 0.82 which has an area effect rather than burst.
I was not aware of that and now I am fuming mad.
Ten data points really isn't much, to be honest...
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Goblin Squad Member
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(Ad: This completely unfounded speculation brought to you by the Pathfinder University, opening in Thornkeep this week).
The number 79 certainly seems to be the full damage (after armor reduction), and the variation seems to be statistical noise.
For 1 keyword the base damage should be 45 and for 3 keywords 55.
10 points higher base damage should give (10*damage factor) more damage per hit.
= you are not seeing the difference between +0 and +2.
Possible causes: human error, bug, or strange design (mob with resistance that scales with attack).
Best advice: try again with a different type mob. If same (lack of) pattern persists, let us know and we'll try to confirm it independently.
math: Damage factor 1.84 (which at least was the case once upon a time) would give a full damage of 83 points for the +0, which would fit if the bandit has 2 points of resistance (bringing the base damage to 43).
For 3 keywords, the full damage in this case should be 98 (or 97, depending on rounding).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ten data points really isn't much, to be honest...I guess some people don't understand the statistics presented for instance the absolute cap of 79..... Anyways It would be great if some other classes could repeat the exercise to see if others are affected?
Just running a simple T test gives a P value of 0.7760 . The two samples are from the same population.
For once I agree with you, something very odd is going on here, have you bug reported it ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ten data points really isn't much, to be honest...I guess some people don't understand the statistics presented for instance the absolute cap of 79..... Anyways It would be great if some other classes could repeat the exercise to see if others are affected?
Just running a simple T test gives a P value of 0.7760 . The two samples are from the same population.
For once I agree with you, something very odd is going on here, have you bug reported it ?
no I thought it should be verified by another wiz at least and probably tested by other classes with their weapons to see if it's just staff's.
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Goblin Squad Member
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29Out of curiosity, what is your arcane attack at?
I wonder if that may part of the problem.
I know that when Energetic Field is used before combat, my spells do more damage, due to the higher attack rating.
When I use a bow on different characters, I know that the one with ranged attack 45 does more damage than the one with ranged 25.
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Goblin Squad Member
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29Out of curiosity, what is your arcane attack at?
I wonder if that may part of the problem.
I know that when Energetic Field is used before combat, my spells do more damage, due to the higher attack rating.
When I use a bow on different characters, I know that the one with ranged attack 45 does more damage than the one with ranged 25.
Nope when I use energetic field my arcane attack rating goes upto 74 and I still do 79 to bandits just checked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ouch, another painful nerf. Is it going to retain the massive cooldown as well as the huge damage cut? Are wizards really this overpowered?
It's more like they don't want wizards using cantrips as a main attack. Wilting Surge was almost as strong as Fireball, yet only cost a cheap ammo charge instead of Power. If spamming expendables isn't great for wizards down the line, the devs will make adjustments. But first they need to see it and gather data... and that means taking away the existing toys until people start using them.
So next time you're doing some player combat, don't use Wilting Surge. Cast Lightning Bolt.
Ten data points really isn't much, to be honest...I guess some people don't understand the statistics presented for instance the absolute cap of 79..... Anyways It would be great if some other classes could repeat the exercise to see if others are affected?
Just running a simple T test gives a P value of 0.7760 . The two samples are from the same population.
For once I agree with you, something very odd is going on here, have you bug reported it ?
IIRC a p-value of 0,77 means a 77% likelihood the correlation found has occurred randomly?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ouch, another painful nerf. Is it going to retain the massive cooldown as well as the huge damage cut? Are wizards really this overpowered?It's more like they don't want wizards using cantrips as a main attack. Wilting Surge was almost as strong as Fireball, yet only cost a cheap ammo charge instead of Power. If spamming expendables isn't great for wizards down the line, the devs will make adjustments. But first they need to see it and gather data... and that means taking away the existing toys until people start using them.
So next time you're doing some player combat, don't use Wilting Surge. Cast Lightning Bolt.
so what other classes can use ammo and no ammo for their main attack and wiz have to use power?!? are you serious or just being sarcastic? If not you should probably look at wiz expendables as they do the lowest dps of any class lol.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have Lightning Bolt. And even if I did, if it's cheaper and more effective to just use a bow, why would I run around in cloth armor like an idiot when I could be optimized in medium chain armor? I know asymmetric balance is difficult to achieve, but it feels like they're skirting objective inferiority rather than a different tactic and playstyle with wizard, and if they keep nerfing it they'll definitely get there.
It's true that it's really easy to go through the lowest-level enemies like a hot knife through butter with area attacks, but anything beyond those lowest levels that does physical damage and the wizard just doesn't have the staying power to survive long enough to do damage.
On edit: To try to be pithy about it, we have the glass part, but not the cannon part. I don't even feel comfortable carrying a spellbook, because both my implement slots are used for heals that allow me to get off that second or third shot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IIRC a p-value of 0,77 means a 77% likelihood the correlation found has occurred randomly?Ten data points really isn't much, to be honest...I guess some people don't understand the statistics presented for instance the absolute cap of 79..... Anyways It would be great if some other classes could repeat the exercise to see if others are affected?
Just running a simple T test gives a P value of 0.7760 . The two samples are from the same population.
For once I agree with you, something very odd is going on here, have you bug reported it ?
Hypothesis - the two samples means are from different attacks
Null Hypothesis - the two attacks are same weaponTo reject the null hypothesis and confirm we have actually have two different attacks at 0.05 significance we need a p of < 0.05.
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Goblin Squad Member
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so what other classes can use ammo and no ammo for their main attack and wiz have to use power?!? are you serious or just being sarcastic? If not you should probably look at wiz expendables as they do the lowest dps of any class lol.Ouch, another painful nerf. Is it going to retain the massive cooldown as well as the huge damage cut? Are wizards really this overpowered?It's more like they don't want wizards using cantrips as a main attack. Wilting Surge was almost as strong as Fireball, yet only cost a cheap ammo charge instead of Power. If spamming expendables isn't great for wizards down the line, the devs will make adjustments. But first they need to see it and gather data... and that means taking away the existing toys until people start using them.
So next time you're doing some player combat, don't use Wilting Surge. Cast Lightning Bolt.
Sure... let's look at Lightning Bolt, since I mentioned it. Damage multiplier 3.66 Streak, an AOE that hits everything in a line out to 35m, along with being electric damage which bypasses the physical resistance of those heavy armor guys with swords, and a 50 stack of exhaust to anyone affected by Dispelled.
Know why it's not as damaging as Harm? It's a long range AOE. Not a point blank single target. This is seen with Meteor Swarm vs Deaths Wail. Meteor Swarm = long range burst, 3.27 multiplier. Deaths Wail = close combat burst, 6.26 multiplier. Now look at every other wizard spell... it's either a buff that deals no damage, some type of AOE, or some type of strong single target debuff. All of which take a damage penalty for the utility offered.
So what other classes can nuke a spot 35m away with a 6m burst for the same damage as the strongest single target bow attacks? I suggest looking at Wizard expendables again.
Oh and every class uses power. Warriors use it for utility, weapons for damage. As for ammo, the bow users know that feeling quite well. Wizards can certainly choose not to use power, just beat the mob to death with a club. I wouldn't recommend it though.
Spellcasting classes use spells in Pathfinder. If you weren't aware of that, purchase the Pathfinder RPG gamebook and start reading. This is hardly the first MMO where casters relied on mana while weapon classes attacked for free. If you dislike needing to manage a Power bar, don't play a caster.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I never get a Streak to work. Even when I had lined up goblins perfectly, it often failed. As a matter of fact, getting a good effect from a Short Blast melee or Long Blast Melee is very hard too.
Short Blast (caster) seems to often miss a few mobs that are clearly in the line of fire too. Splash, Burst and Long blast (caster) are the most reliable for me.
Sorry, back on topic.
IIRC a p-value of 0,77 means a 77% likelihood the correlation found has occurred randomly?Ten data points really isn't much, to be honest...I guess some people don't understand the statistics presented for instance the absolute cap of 79..... Anyways It would be great if some other classes could repeat the exercise to see if others are affected?
Just running a simple T test gives a P value of 0.7760 . The two samples are from the same population.
For once I agree with you, something very odd is going on here, have you bug reported it ?
Hypothesis - the two samples means are from different attacks
Null Hypothesis - the two attacks are same weaponTo reject the null hypothesis and confirm we have actually have two different attacks at 0.05 significance we need a p of < 0.05.
Aaaaaah... so if we can't reject the null hypothesis, we have actually PROVEN it???!!!??? Wow. I never knew THAT particular trick of statistics...
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Goblin Squad Member
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so what other classes can use ammo and no ammo for their main attack and wiz have to use power?!? are you serious or just being sarcastic? If not you should probably look at wiz expendables as they do the lowest dps of any class lol.Ouch, another painful nerf. Is it going to retain the massive cooldown as well as the huge damage cut? Are wizards really this overpowered?It's more like they don't want wizards using cantrips as a main attack. Wilting Surge was almost as strong as Fireball, yet only cost a cheap ammo charge instead of Power. If spamming expendables isn't great for wizards down the line, the devs will make adjustments. But first they need to see it and gather data... and that means taking away the existing toys until people start using them.
So next time you're doing some player combat, don't use Wilting Surge. Cast Lightning Bolt.
Sure... let's look at Lightning Bolt, since I mentioned it. Damage multiplier 3.66 Streak, an AOE that hits everything in a line out to 35m, along with being electric damage which bypasses the physical resistance of those heavy armor guys with swords, and a 50 stack of exhaust to anyone affected by Dispelled.
Know why it's not as damaging as Harm? It's a long range AOE. Not a point blank single target. This is seen with Meteor Swarm vs Deaths Wail. Meteor Swarm = long range burst, 3.27 multiplier. Deaths Wail = close combat burst, 6.26 multiplier. Now look at every other wizard spell... it's either a buff that deals no damage, some type of AOE, or some type of strong single target debuff. All of which take a damage penalty for the utility offered.
So what other classes can nuke a spot 35m away with a 6m burst for the same damage as the strongest single target bow attacks? I suggest looking at Wizard expendables again.
Oh and every class uses power. Warriors use it for utility, weapons for damage. As for ammo, the bow users know that feeling quite...
Dude first off I own 10 pathfinder rulebook's and that has F all to do with PFO as I have been told countless times. I think it cute that you used lightning bolt as a powerfull ranged AOE attack lol do you know what a streak is lmfao. 5 silver for a video of you hitting more then 3 mobs with that and winning the encounter. First you will need to find four that want to line up for you or are already in line and in range. Would be pretty amazing to get ppl to line up for you in pvp lol. Oh and by the way I have lightning bolt it's 2.2 not 3.66 dmg x so try not to lie and I might take this sort of argument more seriously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have Lightning Bolt. And even if I did, if it's cheaper and more effective to just use a bow, why would I run around in cloth armor like an idiot when I could be optimized in medium chain armor? To try to be pithy about it, we have the glass part, but not the cannon part.
The bow is single target damage, Lightning Bolt is area damage. If you feel it suits your nuking personality more to go for the bow, then go for the bow. That's why it exists. It's a source of ranged single target damage that will not be outshone by a wizard's spells. Wizards have all the area damage and buffs and debuffs. Glass cannon??? Since when have wizards ever been a glass cannon in a D&D or Pathfinder setting? Even metamagicked Evocation spells could NEVER match what an optimally built Fighter or Ranger could do in damage. Oh you do 10d6 damage with lightning bolt at max level? A Rogue deals that with sneak attack on every single flanking attack for free without casting anything. Ergo, you wouldn't use Lightning Bolt for single target DPS unless you really had nothing better to do, you'd let the Rogue handle it.
The cannon factor of Wizards has always come from target saturation. In PVP, those AOE spells will destroy crowds of enemies, but in PVE, the aggro mechanics and mob damage are what make you hesitant to use them. Wizards themselves are working as they should be. Your complaint has to do with surviving mob retaliation, and that's stemming from a lack of Tanking because -- there's no tank class! There's no glass cannon class! There's no pure healer class! This is not a trinity-focused game where the mages and rogues spank while the warrior gets his face eaten and the priest spams divinity on him.
The balance of the game makes lots of sense if you've played games like Ultima Online, Darkfall, or D&D/Pathfinder. But if you're trying to apply World of Warcraft standards here, you're going to missing the point.
Sorry, but if you think wizards are too squishy, god help any light armor Rogues who think stabbing something with sneak attack daggers is a smart idea. Heavy armor is quite effective currently because mobs do insane amounts of damage and have ludicrous amounts of health. That's the issue you're having, not your DPS. If you had silly amounts of DPS as a wizard, you'd encounter the same problem as when you AOE... the mobs go after you and you don't survive. Being able to kill them before they even reach you would simply invalidate any reason to use melee to begin with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't have Lightning Bolt. And even if I did, if it's cheaper and more effective to just use a bow, why would I run around in cloth armor like an idiot when I could be optimized in medium chain armor? To try to be pithy about it, we have the glass part, but not the cannon part.The bow is single target damage, Lightning Bolt is area damage. If you feel it suits your nuking personality more to go for the bow, then go for the bow. That's why it exists. It's a source of ranged single target damage that will not be outshone by a wizard's spells. Wizards have all the area damage and buffs and debuffs. Glass cannon??? Since when have wizards ever been a glass cannon in a D&D or Pathfinder setting? Even metamagicked Evocation spells could NEVER match what an optimally built Fighter or Ranger could do in damage. Oh you do 10d6 damage with lightning bolt at max level? A Rogue deals that with sneak attack on every single flanking attack for free without casting anything. Ergo, you wouldn't use Lightning Bolt for single target DPS unless you really had nothing better to do, you'd let the Rogue handle it.
The cannon factor of Wizards has always come from target saturation. In PVP, those AOE spells will destroy crowds of enemies, but in PVE, the aggro mechanics and mob damage are what make you hesitant to use them. Wizards themselves are working as they should be. Your complaint has to do with surviving mob retaliation, and that's stemming from a lack of Tanking because -- there's no tank class! There's no glass cannon class! There's no pure healer class! This is not a trinity-focused game where the mages and rogues spank while the warrior gets his face eaten and the priest spams divinity on him.
The balance of the game makes lots of sense if you've played games like Ultima Online, Darkfall, or D&D/Pathfinder. But if you're trying to apply World of Warcraft standards here, you're going to missing the point.
Sorry, but if you think wizards are too squishy, god...
I'm just gunna flag this as wrong forum area since you are not even talking about PFO now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dude first off I own 10 pathfinder rulebook's and that has F all to do with PFO as I have been told countless times.
Excellent! You already own the books! Now read them. Nowhere does it say Wizards run around beating people to death with staff, wand, or even cantrips. They cast the other spells that make the bad men fall down.
I think it cute that you used lightning bolt as a powerfull ranged AOE attack lol do you know what a streak is lmfao. 5 silver for a video of you hitting more then 3 mobs with that and winning the encounter. First you will need to find four that want to line up for you or are already in line and in range. Would be pretty amazing to get ppl to line up for you in pvp lol.
Thanks for admitting that the game functions, rather than numbers, are what you find to be the issue. That said, even 3 mobs hit means Lightning bolt just went to over 10 damage multiplier, way more than any bow shot.
Oh and by the way I have lightning bolt it's 2.2 not 3.66 dmg x so try not to lie and I might take this sort of argument more seriously.
Here you go: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WMPFVJKTrV58NC_6oTsHxjWs8zWajD9Td0e 3aJ4bIpE/edit#gid=1807701593
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Goblin Squad Member
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IIRC a p-value of 0,77 means a 77% likelihood the correlation found has occurred randomly?Ten data points really isn't much, to be honest...I guess some people don't understand the statistics presented for instance the absolute cap of 79..... Anyways It would be great if some other classes could repeat the exercise to see if others are affected?
Just running a simple T test gives a P value of 0.7760 . The two samples are from the same population.
For once I agree with you, something very odd is going on here, have you bug reported it ?
Hypothesis - the two samples means are from different attacks
Null Hypothesis - the two attacks are same weaponTo reject the null hypothesis and confirm we have actually have two different attacks at 0.05 significance we need a p of < 0.05.
I might be misunderstanding you're terminology but when you say population are you referring to bandits in general or one specific bandit. I did every test on the same bandit for the two sets of 10. I just ran away after checking the number each time then followed him back for the next test.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Dude first off I own 10 pathfinder rulebook's and that has F all to do with PFO as I have been told countless times.Excellent! You already own the books! Now read them. Nowhere does it say Wizards run around beating people to death with staff, wand, or even cantrips. They cast the other spells that make the bad men fall down.
I think it cute that you used lightning bolt as a powerfull ranged AOE attack lol do you know what a streak is lmfao. 5 silver for a video of you hitting more then 3 mobs with that and winning the encounter. First you will need to find four that want to line up for you or are already in line and in range. Would be pretty amazing to get ppl to line up for you in pvp lol.Thanks for admitting that the game functions, rather than numbers, are what you find to be the issue. That said, even 3 mobs hit means Lightning bolt just went to over 10 damage multiplier, way more than any bow shot.
Oh and by the way I have lightning bolt it's 2.2 not 3.66 dmg x so try not to lie and I might take this sort of argument more seriously.Here you go: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WMPFVJKTrV58NC_6oTsHxjWs8zWajD9Td0e 3aJ4bIpE/edit#gid=1807701593
Not sure what your game is here that google doc isn't there and I am looking at the expandable in game right now 2.2 multiplier. As for PFO TT this is the wrong forum for that so I won't even get into the dynamics of how wiz's out dps EVERY other class in tt. What happens in TT as we have been told simply does not apply here. Not the balances nor power curves or skill to use between classes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm just gunna flag this as wrong forum area since you are not even talking about PFO now.
Try reading the post, it might help. It actually is entirely about PFO, discussing the aggro, the mobs, the damage, survival, PVP, etc. It draws comparison between the source material and the online game to assist in the balance analysis.
Not sure what your game is here that google doc doesn't work and I am looking at the expandable in game right now 2.2 multiplier.
Go here and click the first spreadsheet. Then read the 2nd post in this thread again, slower, and grasp what's being said (the one by Neadenil).
https://drive.google.com/?ddrp=1#folders/0B0THpTRVitJ7clFtVi1lZWptekk
Provided by Nihimon on these very forums below, and last updated yesterday.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rcpi?Pathfinder-Online-Shared-Data-from-the-De vs
As for PFO TT this is the wrong forum for that so I won't even get into the dynamics of how wiz's out dps EVERY other class in tt. What happens in TT as we have been told simply does not apply here. Not the balances nor power curves or skill to use between classes.
Oh but it's not wrong forum to discuss PFO, and that's what's being done. The tabletop was mentioned to illustrate the reasoning for the online game working this way. While not all elements of the TT will be perfectly transitioned, this is still a Pathfinder game at heart, so expect similarities. You seem to want a completely different type of game.
Oh and I'd love to hear about how Wizzies outdps Fighters in your world. The common complaint among wizards is how badly Evocation sucks and how much stronger debuffs and no-save spells are. We're still talking about the edition where Rogues can completely dodge Fireballs right?
EDIT: Let's do random google searches for good fighter builds and... done. Level 10 fighter dealing 60-80 single target damage per round.
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/738/optimal-focused-fighter-builds-i n-pathfinder
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Goblin Squad Member
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[
I might be misunderstanding you're terminology but when you say population are you referring to bandits in general or one specific bandit. I did every test on the same bandit for the two sets of 10. I just ran away after checking the number each time then followed him back for the next test.
This may be a valuable clue: The assumed bug may have to do with updating character info while in combat. (Or more specifically with changing between weapons of same type while in combat).
Did you every actually exit combat and untarget the bandit or stay in combat during the whole test?Did you slot the two weapons as primary and secondary weapon, or go into inventory and unqeuip/equip?
Suggested tests for identifying bug:
-repeat your orignial test, but start with the +2 and then move to +0.
-actually kill the target to make doubly sure combat is ended, then attack another target of same name/type/colour.
PS: 'population' here is a technical statistics term. Bascially he means (as I do) that the two data sets seem to have been generated by the same formula, not by two sufficiently different formulas.
PPS: the orginal topic may be interesting for devs, the derailing probably isn't.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why do people always have to derail topics ...
I used an older version of Nightdrifters spreadsheet and got max damage of 106 and 129 for the two different staffs. The underlying values have changed but there is no way that the numerous 79 is by random alone. This clearly is the max damage against these monsters.
So there is an issue. Question is - is the issue because of the way it was tested or has it other reasons?
I would suggest - go to a starter town and redo the test. Use one staff first - kill a few goblins - then change the staff and kill a few more.
The question here is if the error in in assigning the keywords (and missing them) or in the way the test was done. A problem clearly exists with the data.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why do people always have to derail topics ...
I used an older version of Nightdrifters spreadsheet and got max damage of 106 and 129 for the two different staffs. The underlying values have changed but there is no way that the numerous 79 is by random alone. This clearly is the max damage against these monsters.
So there is an issue. Question is - is the issue because of the way it was tested or has it other reasons?
I would suggest - go to a starter town and redo the test. Use one staff first - kill a few goblins - then change the staff and kill a few more.
The question here is if the error in in assigning the keywords (and missing them) or in the way the test was done. A problem clearly exists with the data.
Ok just went and attacked a wolf after putting both stvs in inventory and re equipping the +2 . 53 79 79 then untargeted wolf unequipped re equipped went back to wolf 79 79 . Ok so If there are any other wizes with a +2 diminishing can they try this out plz?
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Which attack feats have been seen to exhibit the behavior where base damage appears not to change properly, and which ones have been tested and appear to work?
I consider a critical hit against an opponent to be sufficient to observe that full damage should be displayed. The OP described behavior is obviously a bug, and now we can look at how that bug is expressed and how to replicate it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am work at present and cannot test this till this afternoon. If more testing is still needed at that stage will go to one of the training hexes (unbuilt settlement hex) and smack a few things.
It might be worth someone testing this on other staff types and with other spells.
(in reply to some of the off topic stuff - streak will work if you target a range opponent while a melee guy is hitting you in the face though its not necessarily the best tactic in that scenario. Longbows also have a streak attack btw)
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Method: I attacked the same bandit with the spell wilting surge documented the dmg number and ran rinse and repeat on SAME BANDIT. I did this for 10 data points. I have wilting surge trained to 3.
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___Charged staff +0 - 79,79,79,52,79,79,67,54,57,79* Total=704
Diminishing staff +2 - 79,53,79,79,79,56,79,79*,79,57 Total=719The +0 has one matching keyword. The diminishing +2 has 3 matching keywords. This seem's like maybe there is a bug for staff dmg.
I could not reproduce this on the current internal build.
79 should, indeed, be the max damage for a one keyword matched Wilting Surge against a bandit on live (they have Negative Resist 2 so max is 43 x 1.84 = 79.12 with one keyword); 98 should be the max for three keywords. My test on the internal build showed the expected 10 base damage increase between a Charged Staff +0 and a Diminishing Staff +3 with Wilting Surge rank 3 (went from 51 to 63 with the new multiplier of 1.18).
If anyone else notices similar instances of keyword matching not seeming to matter in EE3 or EE4, please let us know so we can see if there are any other similar inputs going on that I didn't think to try.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Aaaaaah... so if we can't reject the null hypothesis, we have actually PROVEN it???!!!??? Wow. I never knew THAT particular trick of statistics...
OK
We are not trying to confirm the null hypothesis.
We want to confirm there are two separate formula at work and to do that we need to reject the null hypothesis.
We are not able to do that with two means that give a p=0.77 .
Intuitively, the reason for such a high p with so small a sample number is the standard deviation is over 3.0 for each sample set whereas the difference between the sample means is only 1.5 .
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The hypothesis that we are trying to reject is that one of them is taking from a particular distribution capped at (45-2)*1.84, and that the other is taking samples from a particular distribution that is capped at (45+10*2-2)*1.84
If we can reject that hypothesis (which we can with the data sets provided, exact p based on relative attack/defense values), then we need to check for methodological flaws and attempt to replicate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Method: I attacked the same bandit with the spell wilting surge documented the dmg number and ran rinse and repeat on SAME BANDIT. I did this for 10 data points. I have wilting surge trained to 3.
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___Charged staff +0 - 79,79,79,52,79,79,67,54,57,79* Total=704
Diminishing staff +2 - 79,53,79,79,79,56,79,79*,79,57 Total=719The +0 has one matching keyword. The diminishing +2 has 3 matching keywords. This seem's like maybe there is a bug for staff dmg.
I could not reproduce this on the current internal build.
79 should, indeed, be the max damage for a one keyword matched Wilting Surge against a bandit on live (they have Negative Resist 2 so max is 43 x 1.84 = 79.12 with one keyword); 98 should be the max for three keywords. My test on the internal build showed the expected 10 base damage increase between a Charged Staff +0 and a Diminishing Staff +3 with Wilting Surge rank 3 (went from 51 to 63 with the new multiplier of 1.18).
If anyone else notices similar instances of keyword matching not seeming to matter in EE3 or EE4, please let us know so we can see if there are any other similar inputs going on that I didn't think to try.
It was a +2 diminishing. Im going to try putting it in the vault loging in and out and re arming myself with just the +2 diminishing. I will then try it on a few diffrwent mobs. Ok just did this and capped out at 98 so maby somthing odd happend with the inventory instance. I have seen weird things like I had a somatic staff recipe change into a psycic staff recipe and then change back after going vault to inventory a few times. Also have had items loose their +value after a death. Anyhow works fine now
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pyronous Rath, what Rank do you have Wilting Surge trained to?
If you only have it trained to Rank 1, it doesn't matter what Staff you have, or what pluses.
If you read the origonal post im quitr clear that its trained to 3 but anyhow the issue seams to have resolved by putting the item in and out of the vault. I also relaged 2 hexes away then wwent back and took it out of vault and re equiped,.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Rank 4 Wilting Surge - Psychic Staff +2. Two Keywords matched. 50 Base Damage vs 6 Resistance, so 44 * 1.84 DF = 80.96. I saw a Critical Hit for 81.
It looks to be working as expected to me.
But... since that's not the exact test conditions, we did it again with Tamlin.
Tamlin, Rank 3 Wilting Surge, against Nihimon with 0 Resistance.
Charged Staff +0 - 83
Diminishing Staff +2 - 101
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you read the origonal post im quitr clear that its trained to 3 but anyhow the issue seams to have resolved by putting the item in and out of the vault. I also relaged 2 hexes away then wwent back and took it out of vault and re equiped,.Pyronous Rath, what Rank do you have Wilting Surge trained to?
If you only have it trained to Rank 1, it doesn't matter what Staff you have, or what pluses.
Glad to hear you got it worked out. Enjoyed the testing though :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tamlin, Rank 3 Wilting Surge, against Nihimon with 0 Resistance.
Charged Staff +0 - 83
Diminishing Staff +2 - 101
Which is 22% higher for the +2 exactly as expected (I believe I may have misquoted 25% in another thread but I had forgotten to account for the +0 keyword)
Its good that the higher plus staffs are not generically bugged in normal play - but I still suspect there may possibly be a minor issue here.
Perhaps swapping to a higher plus weapon of an otherwise identical type between combats causes odd results? It is not something you are likely to normally do in typical play but I may have an experiment and see if I can duplicate the original results by swapping backwards and forwards between standard and higher plus staffs just to see what shows up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I got a lot of 79s as well with my +2 Diminishing staff and a +0 staff today. I also lost my ability to cast any spells or make any attacks three times tonight while running around the Crusader Road. Perhaps there is a bug here related to crossing hexes, as so many of the bugs seem to be.
Aaaaaah... so if we can't reject the null hypothesis, we have actually PROVEN it???!!!??? Wow. I never knew THAT particular trick of statistics...
OK
We are not trying to confirm the null hypothesis.
We want to confirm there are two separate formula at work and to do that we need to reject the null hypothesis.
We are not able to do that with two means that give a p=0.77 .
Intuitively, the reason for such a high p with so small a sample number is the standard deviation is over 3.0 for each sample set whereas the difference between the sample means is only 1.5 .
The only thing you can conclude with a p value of 0,77 is that any correlation you have found is most likely due to chance. And thus, you have nothing that says the null hypothesis (same weapons) or the hypothesis you're testing (different weapons) is true. You can't reject either of them. Do more tests, find a correlation with a p below 0,05, then draw your conclusions.