deceptive characters


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Silver Crusade

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There are as many misconceptions when you flat out tell people what your class is as when you tell them whatever works for your character.

When I introduce my aasimar paladin as a paladin everybody assumes tank. Nobody expects a highly mobile dervish swinging a scimitar.

When I introduce the same character as a dervish dancer everybody assumes bard. There is no win. Some people really care about how you introduce yourself and some people don't. Me, I just ask when I need or want to know something.

"Hey, anybody here good with locks or should I hit the door with my adamantine blade again?"


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
How many forums has this been in now?

Three now, I think.


As a character, I avoid any kind of reference to classes; though most of my fellow game group don't. Our differing ways don't rub each other wrong.

When they ask me what I am, ooc, I'll be firm on two points; What my class is, and how closely I follow the typical expectations of that class. Often, I must stress; I am NOT a classical cleric/bard, etc.

My favorite has been my sound bard who relies on spells primarily for mobility enhancement and combat, while avoiding enchantments and healing entirely. I told people straight; think of me more as an Inquisitor then a bard; I am skilled and a slayer of monsters, but my means are different.

Silver Crusade

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
How many forums has this been in now?

PFS -> Pathfinder RPG -> Gamer Talk .... so far.

Which is weird, since the mechanical implementations are definitely existing (and a lot more troublesome in PFS).

However since we are now here, does anyone mind if I bring my LARP swords or my wooden training Katanas to the gaming table to enhance the mysterious nature of my character ? Or point them at mysterious players of mysterious characters?

[I am kidding, but since the weapons mentioned above are usually stored in my gaming room at home, I and my regulars usually have access. ]

Liberty's Edge

Only if I can borrow one to do the same. :P


In the last year, I've played:
-A sanctified rogue who consistently charges demons and devils, referring to his sneak attack as "smiting evil"
-A mind-reading, shape-shifting, trap-disabling pickpocket party face who just happens to be a summoner
-A siege-weapons-focused lore oracle
-A cavalier who calls himself a paladin, but sits around inspiring his allies and playing music
-A party healer/investigator arcanist
-A swashbuckling pistol-and-rapier pirate leveled as an investigator
-and am currently building a dual-wielding combat thrower acrobat brawler

You can do a lot of things with standard classes, if you want to think outside of the box. But it's absolutely important that you let other players know exactly what you can do, and how well—otherwise, they won't know how to cooperate with you in combat (and when you need healing, backup, a flanking buddy, etc), which will likely lead to avoidable resentment and HP loss.

***

I was, however, once in a 3.5 game where every character had to be evil-aligned and "criminally insane." Playing an Eberron changeling who wanted desperately to be socially admired, I gradually began killing off townsfolk and taking their identities, to the point where at game's end I was two of the town's three major quest-givers. That was an entirely different kind of fun.

Sovereign Court

I don't like that one bit. I hate when someone keeps stuff from the party. I don't need to have secrets giving me a false sense of self importance, so I don't see why others should do that.


BretI wrote:
The person who wears a dark cloak over them and doesn't want anyone to know what race they are is still not a good idea.

I see comments like this come up on a regular basis in this thread. I completely agree that a player that came to the table and refused to reveal any info about their character would be annoying and disruptive to the table. But I've never actually seen a player try to pull something like this. Has anyone actually seen this? The people I see in this thread talking about their "deceptive" character are usually pretty upfront about the general roll and tactics of their character, and are only vague on a few of the particulars. Now, some may still find this annoying or even unacceptable, but it is not really fair to equate a player that is reluctant to share the mechanics of how their character works to "a cloaked stranger that refuses to communicate in any way" kind of player.

Silver Crusade

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Kifaru wrote:
BretI wrote:
The person who wears a dark cloak over them and doesn't want anyone to know what race they are is still not a good idea.
I see comments like this come up on a regular basis in this thread. I completely agree that a player that came to the table and refused to reveal any info about their character would be annoying and disruptive to the table. But I've never actually seen a player try to pull something like this. Has anyone actually seen this? The people I see in this thread talking about their "deceptive" character are usually pretty upfront about the general roll and tactics of their character, and are only vague on a few of the particulars. Now, some may still find this annoying or even unacceptable, but it is not really fair to equate a player that is reluctant to share the mechanics of how their character works to "a cloaked stranger that refuses to communicate in any way" kind of player.

Well I think the example with the Dhampir PC upthread is as bad as it gets, and even in that case the chance of killing a friendly character with a CLW is pretty remote.

The nasty part of me actually hopes that this happens some day, only to read the "Is this PVP" discussion in the PFS boards. Seems like prime popcorn time ^^

Dark Archive

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

Well I think the example with the Dhampir PC upthread is as bad as it gets, and even in that case the chance of killing a friendly character with a CLW is pretty remote.

The nasty part of me actually hopes that this happens some day, only to read the "Is this PVP" discussion in the PFS boards. Seems like prime popcorn time ^^

if I'm playing a dhampir that refuses to acknowledge to the rest of the party his negative energy affinity, it is in no way PVP for a character to try to save me with a cure spell.

if I'm playing the same dhampir that DOES tell people not to heal him because it'll kill him, that is PVP if someone does so.

seems straightforward. you know the risk you're taking withholding that kind of info from people. and I have been in parties where a dhampir has seriously inhibited the abilities of a cleric/life oracle to channel to harm undead. that's part of the game.

The Exchange

I have a friend who has a Cleric named ....

Notkyra .... yeah, she is so NOT Kyra.

Negitive Channeling, heavy armored cleric that can't hit the broad side of a barn with her weapons...


I had some thoughts about the original topic, but this thread now seems to be about Razmir and snowflake-ism, so I'll just move along.


It gets easier on, say, PBP, where only the DM has a link to your real character sheet.

At the same time, a kitsune synthesist with skill focus can start out with +31 to disguise (or +23 as any less-cheesy class), which is enough to absolutely convince everyone in the party that you're whatever race you say you are.


I thought maybe I would contribute to the original topic.

melferburque wrote:

I'm wondering how many people are like me, and keep details of their characters secret from the other players? several of my characters don't fit an archetypal role, and it amuses me to leave the other players at the table wondering how I pulled it off (I always make sure the GM knows what's going on).

I've found these characters are the most fun to play, and I'm always entertained when other players use similar tactics.

as long as I'm contributing, do you care that my "cleric" is actually a bard, or my "depressed klown" is an alchemist? the results are the same, and there's usually a unique backstory as to how that PC ended up in the society.

For me it depends entirely on how the player goes about it. Some up the secretive status level enough that it no longer feels like we are on the same team. I don't know what they are going to be doing or how I can work with them. I don't know what I can count on them to handle and what I will have to help them with.

The plan calls for a greater glyph of warding. Yeah, I knew you wouldn't have it today, but you can prepare it tomorrow. What do you mean you can't? Every cleric can?!?

If you were really part of close knit team with someone you would spend literally hours, upon days, upon weeks with them practicing and rehearsing. You would know what each others capabilities are plan for that. Even if he never told you he went to Jimmy-Joe-Bob's school of knuckle sandwich delivery, you would still know that he can dish out a serious case of whaloping when he gets going.
With the secretive player, you don't get that hours-days-weeks of learning to be part of the team.

I have had characters that in-game won't tell most anyone about their powers and abilities. But out-of-character, I assume that the time we've spent working into a team you've learned that.

I have some characters I don't just give a class because that would not tell them what I can do. When asked what I am, "A half orc warrior that uses his whip and wand to trip or disarm nearly anything." That usually suffices. If the ask what class, I will tell them, "He's a magus. But he doesn't even have a sword or shocking grasp, so don't count on that!" If they want more details, I will give them. Most don't want more details.


The Beardinator wrote:
melferburque wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:

If you tell other players, that your character can heal without requiring a UMD roll in the middle of combat (you really don't want those to fail) can use a large number of scrolls, is a spellcaster and can use a lot of items using UMD. That is all fine, just don't use the game term cleric.

You can say, that you are a priest, a devoted follower, the high priest of Razmir... everything. But once you use a game term, people have expectations.

I WANT them to have those expectations.

I can channel positive four times a day. I can cast cure light wounds 22 (!) times a day. I can cast cure moderate four times a day. I can cast cure serious twice a day. I can cast breath of life twice. I can also not fail to use a wand or a scroll lower than caster level 5th. and of those I have ample. all the cleric goodies. remove disease, remove paralysis, remove blindness/deafness, etc.

I want people to think of me as a cleric. I want them to wonder how I'm able to do everything a cleric can do without having a real deity. I want them to get interested in razmir as a viable option, because I love the fluff of it all.

what is wrong with people having expectations that I act like a cleric, when I do in fact act like a cleric?

I have to say, I really like the "cleric" of Razmir you have set-up. I agree with you, in that you give the party enough information on what you have to offer the party and you can actually provide it. As a GM myself, as long as you are up-front and clear with him/her, you're kosher. I personally love the class archetypes and the myriad ways a player can personalize and reshape classes to suite their character concepts. I know its taboo to ask a magician how they do their tricks, but I would like to know how your Razmiran "cleric" works. I may use something similar in an upcoming adventure. If you're ok with it. Lastly, the overall purpose of an adventuring party is cooperation. As long as you are contributing in your own way,...

I agree, I don't think I would have a problem with your character or play style at the table. It seems like it skirts the edge of 'not team play' but it doesn't cross it, so ok with me.

My only possible problem is one of the other sections of the discussion. I can't find the original post (I did look for a while and seem to missing it) just partial quotes of it. But it sounded like a if a player made an out-of-game comment about how the rules don't allow you to make a cleric of Razmir, you were going to in-game punish him by withholding healing of his character. If that is what you were really saying, I definitely have a problem with that.
If that is not what you were saying, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Dark Archive

just to follow up on this thread, I attended Gamestorm 17 in the Portland area this past weekend. I played my razmiri "cleric" three times, including the special, and my razmiri "paladin" once. I was playing mostly with people I had never met before.

so I decided to be nice and tell people what was going on. I was very transparent about what I was doing and how I did it. most of the players I encountered at the con had never even heard of razmir.

oddly enough, I actually had one GM playfully chastise me for being so transparent, as it was not in line with the razmiri faith. he would have preferred I played with a more mysterious style. I had another GM increase the DC for social skill checks by 2 for NPCs that would have been aware of what the razmiri faith entails, which I was cool with, since he gave me a diplomacy bonus to any NPC I healed.

on the plus side, thanks to several awesome diplomacy rolls and several timely charm monster spells, I can count two large elementals, a djinni and an incubus as new faithful to razmir. oh yeah, and the fighter I brought back with a breath of life too.

I must have shouted "praise razmir!" a least a hundred times over three days.


I had played a rogue in 3.5 who was more an information broker than your average rogue. Much like a bard minus the musical apptitude etc. Though I had never come right out admitting I was a rogue I was straight forward letting them know that spellcraft and meat sheilding was not my forte.

I used my knowledge to find them the cool dungeons, the right officials to bribe, or the places of which we or I could get some choice information. They suspected that I could be a rogue but didn't go around doing rogue like things, pickpocket, lockpicking, etc. They knew enough of my character to realize that having me around was better than not.

OOC I had told them I was a rogue after about 4-5 sessions and some money changed hands as they were taking bets. Some thought I was a bard, one thought I was actually playing one of the DM's npc's, Ranger and Bounty Hunter was even thrown out but only one said rogue.

Though they didn't know my full role in the campaign group until much later on, I played it so they at least knew I was useful.

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