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Heaven forbid they might want to learn from you and play a similar fun concept.if someone legitimately wanted to build a similar character, I would gladly share my "secrets" - though they aren't difficult to figure out.
for me, maybe it is a little bit of trolling to the players that just try to break things, of which we have a few in my area. all they want to know is the game mechanic and how they can exploit it, and they don't care at all about the fluff.
the funniest character along these lines I've ever seen was a dragon disciple with an invisible dragon familiar. the familiar didn't exist, it was all role play. the PC had split personalities and the "familiar" would roll his skill checks and "tell" him the results.
we had one "breaky" player at the table that burned through several resources trying to figure out how the dragon disciple did it. detect magic. invisibility purge. throwing a net at the square. anything he could think of. it was hilarious watching him bash his head into the table because he just couldn't comprehend a bit of creative role-playing. a couple of us were in on the character concept. everyone else just thought it was great, because the player is a great role player.
so yeah, my cleric is along those lines. maybe I am having fun watching people contort their brains, trying to figure out how razmir has produced such an effective healer. but in the end, I do what I say I do and I'm good at it.
if they're really that concerned, they can ask me or read up on prestige classes, archetypes and razmir in general. most people don't seem to actually care, they just want to know how I do it. I don't think it's wrong to deny them that info and make them figure it out themselves.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I have to say, that your post comes of as quite condescending of other people's preferred playstyle and in parts quite ..mean.
This "works" as long as everything happens in character, but what you tell another player is very much subject to the "don't be a jerk " rule. I don't think that you will mess up, but there will be those instances where someone lies bleeding on the ground and the "cleric" messes up the UMD roll. Again, I don't think, that this will happen to you, but it is one of the reasons, why me and a couple of others condemn this tactic.
Contributor
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Look if I sit down to a table of PFS and somebody refuses to even tell me what class they're playing, I might not know what class the character is, but I'm pretty sure that the player has class levels in jerk. I'm not asking for your fricking social security number, lighten up. It's a social activity to have fun, not an excuse for you to get off on calling rudeness an air of mystery.
Because calling someone a jerk when they don't submit to your demands to know something they would rather not tell you so they can have fun in this fun social activity is perfectly polite and not rude at all. Am I getting that right? Telling them to lighten up when you're spitting insults at them for describing a role without using exact terms like "Cleric" or "Bard" is totally fun, social behavior. Not rude. Not jerkish behavior.
Look, I find saying class names can be detrimental sometimes as well. I recently made a Cleric of Norgorber for Core. He channels negative energy very well several times a day, and I even dipped a level of Rogue so he can be sneaky and do traps, just like a good follower of the Reaper of Reputation. He deals his damage, does thief-like skills, and can even throw a buff out sometimes. But if I show up saying I'm a Cleric, people are going to assume I have the healing covered for the party. If I say I'm a cultist of the god of thieves, suddenly I'm "off the hook" for healing and people let me play my character. If they ask what a cultist does in game, I say I deal damage and pick locks with a bit of party helping / buffing on occasion. Plus that saves the party from disappointment and death when it they assume the halfling cleric can channel to heal them in battle.
I have an arcane duelist that I absolutely love to play. He has 24 Str and 5 Int. At level 8, before Inspire Courage or any buff spells, he hits for 1d8+22. If I were to say "I'm playing a bard today!" people (other than those who know I have seven bards in PFS) would think buffs, control spells, maybe some lame amount of damage. When I say "I'm playing a nagaji who thinks he's a barbarian. Now, here are the buffs I give people" everyone understands exactly what my character does in the game. I'm going into melee, I'll need healing because I'm going to get hit a lot, but - hey look at this - I also do these mechanical things like give a competence bonus to attack and damage. I don't withhold the word "Bard" from my description, but it doesn't necessarily come up every time.
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Or be useful and describe your character in a way, that is useful for other characters.
I do describe my character in a way that's useful. It's just that they stop listening (or retroactively ignore it) as soon as they hear a class name. Giving an even longer description isn't going to make them listen more.
Something like: I am playing a fighter, and since he somehow is the most intelligent character in the group, I am the leader. Who wants to argue with the guy with the big sword? ^^
Except he's not a leader and uses a flail rather than a sword. See what I mean about assumptions? ;)
And besides, even when I'd point out the intelligence, it didn't change people's behavior.Or: I am playing something like a warpriest, I can heal in combat, but I really don't want to, so don't try to force me by ruining your AC. My character is confident in her ability to enter melee and support the other front line characters, and will actively try to support you there.
He doesn't "support the other front line characters", he IS the front-line character. Sometimes the best among them. See? Even when warned, you still make assumptions. It's so deeply ingrained you almost can't help it.
Or: I am playing a very nice character with apparently some serious anger problems and some kind of bloodline. I can use a useful range of wands from level 1, and might even be able to use surprise our enemies with my cool bloodline powers. Please don't assume, that I will fit the cliche of the stupid unlearned barbarian, cause that will not be me.
Nope, no anger problems. See what I mean about the assumptions?
Something like this, but I think the bigger issue is not answering properly to straight questions.
If my indirect answer actually leaves you better-informed than a more direct answer would have, then where does the issue really lie?
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Look if I sit down to a table of PFS and somebody refuses to even tell me what class they're playing, I might not know what class the character is, but I'm pretty sure that the player has class levels in jerk. I'm not asking for your fricking social security number, lighten up. It's a social activity to have fun, not an excuse for you to get off on calling rudeness an air of mystery.I told you. I'm playing a cleric of razmir. I'll keep you alive, do everything a cleric is supposed to do, and I'll also spend the entire time evangelizing about razmir's awesomeness. you know, ROLE PLAY.
how does that make me a jerk?
What actually happens? Is it :
Your character: "I am a cleric of Razmir, thus far I have ascended to the Xth step and I am on my way to godhood. Can I interest you in some instructive pamphlets ?
or
You: "I am playing a "cleric" or Razmir, he is a true believer and hopes to convince all of your characters to join him on the one true path".
or
You: "I am playing a cleric of Razmir, and he is a pretty mean healer"
There is a difference there. I am not suggesting ill intent, but especially considering newer player who might not know about Razmir's questionable claim to godhood..
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Roleplay in character all you want. Out of character, lying to other players when asked simple questions about what you're playing is the very epitome of being a jerk.
now I'm questioning whether you understand the definition of jerk AND epitome.
I told you my role at the party. there was nothing deceptive about what I do, only how I do it. how does that make me a jerk?
am I also a jerk for saying I'm human, when I'm actually vishkanya with the subtle appearance alternate race trait and wearing full on razmiri regalia to boot? I am under no obligation to tell you anything about my character backstory other than what I choose to reveal.
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Look if I sit down to a table of PFS and somebody refuses to even tell me what class they're playing, I might not know what class the character is, but I'm pretty sure that the player has class levels in jerk. I'm not asking for your fricking social security number, lighten up. It's a social activity to have fun, not an excuse for you to get off on calling rudeness an air of mystery.Because calling someone a jerk when they don't submit to your demands to know something they would rather not tell you so they can have fun in this fun social activity is perfectly polite and not rude at all. Am I getting that right? Telling them to lighten up when you're spitting insults at them for describing a role without using exact terms like "Cleric" or "Bard" is totally fun, social behavior. Not rude. Not jerkish behavior.
Look, I find saying class names can be detrimental sometimes as well. I recently made a Cleric of Norgorber for Core. He channels negative energy very well several times a day, and I even dipped a level of Rogue so he can be sneaky and do traps, just like a good follower of the Reaper of Reputation. He deals his damage, does thief-like skills, and can even throw a buff out sometimes. But if I show up saying I'm a Cleric, people are going to assume I have the healing covered for the party. If I say I'm a cultist of the god of thieves, suddenly I'm "off the hook" for healing and people let me play my character. If they ask what a cultist does in game, I say I deal damage and pick locks with a bit of party helping / buffing on occasion. Plus that saves the party from disappointment and death when it they assume the halfling cleric can channel to heal them in battle.
I have an arcane duelist that I absolutely love to play. He has 24 Str and 5 Int. At level 8, before Inspire Courage or any buff spells, he hits for 1d8+22. If I were to say "I'm playing a bard today!" people (other than those who know I have seven bards in PFS) would think buffs, control spells, maybe some...
I feel that describing your cleric character as a roguish character seems fine, it only really becomes a problem when people get the wrong idea, or if you description mixes rules and RP terms.
And I would not describe that duelist as a bard either. Of course my current character will soon be a Kata Master Monk / Sacred Shield Paladin / Brawler, and that might no be particularly relevant to other players.
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Roleplay in character all you want. Out of character, lying to other players when asked simple questions about what you're playing is the very epitome of being a jerk.now I'm questioning whether you understand the definition of jerk AND epitome.
I told you my role at the party. there was nothing deceptive about what I do, only how I do it. how does that make me a jerk?
am I also a jerk for saying I'm human, when I'm actually vishkanya with the subtle appearance alternate race trait and wearing full on razmiri regalia to boot? I am under no obligation to tell you anything about my character backstory other than what I choose to reveal.
You don't have to tell everybody your backstory, but when there are mechanical implications ... it can become relevant.
If someone tells me that they are playing a paladin (and really just play a neutral rogue in full plate), they really have no reason to complain when I cast holy word.
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I've sat down with plenty of players who sigh in relief and nod, "ah good, we've got our healer" when I play my oracle of metal. I tell them politely but firmly that while he can heal, that is not his primary role. He's glad to heal them out of combat with their wands or in combat if I feel it is necessary.
I don't think the solution to other people making assumptions about your character should be to troll them. I think it's best to address the issue openly so they don't keep doing it with every other character with Cure X Wounds on their spell list.
It just seems like a passive aggressive approach to dealing with bad behavior.
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except that I literally cannot fail that roll. I don't even need to MAKE the roll with a +24 UMD. and I can heal without needing to anyway.but there will be those instances where someone lies bleeding on the ground and the "cleric" messes up the UMD roll.
Your character might not be able to fail the roll, thanks to that impressive bonus, but that fact was quite likely not the case starting at level 1, and using scrolls can be more difficult.
My problem is that you don't play all those characters, and eventually someone (with maybe less system mastery) will mess up.
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I told you. I'm playing a cleric of razmir. I'll keep you alive, do everything a cleric is supposed to do, and I'll also spend the entire time evangelizing about razmir's awesomeness. you know, ROLE PLAY.
how does that make me a jerk?
What actually happens? Is it :
Your character: "I am a cleric of Razmir, thus far I have ascended to the Xth step and I am on my way to godhood. Can I interest you in some instructive pamphlets ?
or
You: "I am playing a "cleric" or Razmir, he is a true believer and hopes to convince all of your characters to join him on the one true path".
or
You: "I am playing a cleric of Razmir, and he is a pretty mean healer"
There is a difference there. I am not suggesting ill intent, but especially considering newer player who might not know about Razmir's questionable claim to godhood..
why can't it be all three?
the character was an orphaned vishkanya that looked more human that reptile. as a child, and not a very bright one, one of the older kids at the orphanage told him razmir was his dad. he believed him.
ever since, he has devoted his life to "daddy" and even managed to bootstrap himself into the ability to ACTUALLY heal people, and quite well. he THINKS razmir has blessed him with this gift because he's really that stupid, but he means well.
he literally believes himself to be the son of the living god, and can back up such claims with some SERIOUS healing along the way (cure light spell like ability 16 times a day, channel positive energy, actual spells, etc).
in my experience, most people don't want to hear all of this. most people hear razmir and metagame "false god: even tho most characters would have no idea that's the case. this character has the masks of living god story arc on him as GM credit.
and he is ACTUALLY a healer, just an arcane one. when I tell people I'm a cleric of razmir, I actually am a cleric of razmir. I am a dedicated healer with face skills and some support/control abilities. I. AM. A. CLERIC.
it's easier for me to just say, "I'm a cleric of razmir, no really, trust me, and hey, you wanna read some pamphlets?" that explain all of this.
there are other PCs I have played with more than once that don't doubt his abilities at the table. some of them know the truth, some don't. but the character really does see himself as an evangelist for razmir, regardless of how misguided he is.
and it's fun for me to play him as such. it's fun for me to spread the glory of razmir to peope that haven't paid any attention to the gods of the inner sea. it's a fascinating "religion" and I want more people to look into it.
also, my cleric's name is elrond halberd.
I recently built a "paladin" of razmir, using similar shenanigans. his name is tomas krooz. I introduce him to the table as the herald of razmir and he hits like a mack truck. why do you need to know his "smites" are actually just buffed power attacks, and his "detect evil" is delusional projection and nothing else?
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I feel that describing your cleric character as a roguish character seems fine, it only really becomes a problem when people get the wrong idea, or if you description mixes rules and RP terms.
And I would not describe that duelist as a bard either. Of course my current character will soon be a Kata Master Monk / Sacred Shield Paladin / Brawler, and that might no be particularly relevant to other players.
That's exactly why I describe my character as such. I sneak, I bluff, I find and disable traps (magical ones even), all like a rogue does. I do so a lot better than 99% of clerics out there because I built the character to do so. His main source of damage isn't sneak attacking - and I make sure people understand I'm not one for making attack roles with my 5 Str - but I still do damage.
You bring up an important point though: I'm careful not to mix rules and RP or in character terms. Like with my nagaji, I might say I make others more confident in their combat abilities by telling them that I got things covered and that we'll surely win this fight together. Mechanically, I'm giving everyone a +3 competence bonus to attack and damage using Perform (Oratory) for Inspire Courage. If they get the benefits - which again I explain before play - who cares if I use the word 'Inspire' anywhere in there? The character doesn't know he's a bard. Hell, with 5 Int he doesn't know much, but he knows he can make his friends better at hitting things just like he does.
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If someone tells me that they are playing a paladin (and really just play a neutral rogue in full plate), they really have no reason to complain when I cast holy word.
if I make a big show of being a paladin of razmir, who is actually a battle oracle in full plate, and you waste that spell? that's on you, not me. it's not like I'm gonna go around asking for it.
paladin of RAZMIR.
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Yes, if I ask you what race you're playing, and you lie to me, that's you being a jerk.
I don't think it is. Some people (dhampires and kitsune that are passing as humans for example) like having the aura of mystery around some of the other races, its part of their character. If it goes away for the players, then it in all likely hood goes away for the characters too.
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Yes, if I ask you what race you're playing, and you lie to me, that's you being a jerk. Of course you're not under any obligation, except the implicit one that by taking part in a social activity it's polite to be honest to one another. I'm not asking for your bank account number, I'm asking basic good faith conversational questions about your character, and would answer them in turn honestly and in good faith.If lying to the face of people asking good faith questions in a social activity doesn't make one a jerk in your eyes, then we have irreconcilable definitional differences.
the CHARACTER doesn't know he's vishkanya, why should you? there is an alternate racial trait specifically for this!
Subtle Appearance: You have normal (human-like) eyes, and your beauty is more conventional. You gain a +4 bonus on Disguise checks to look fully human. This racial trait replaces low-light vision.
how does the race of the character affect your gameplay at all?
do you consider the use of the bluff skill to be "jerky" as well?
If someone tells me that they are playing a paladin (and really just play a neutral rogue in full plate), they really have no reason to complain when I cast holy word.if I make a big show of being a paladin of razmir, who is actually a battle oracle in full plate, and you waste that spell? that's on you, not me. it's not like I'm gonna go around asking for it.
paladin or RAZMIR.
Yeah...that seems like having fun at the other player's expense.
Explore, report, cooperate. Way to humiliate your teammate for trying to help you.
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If someone tells me that they are playing a paladin (and really just play a neutral rogue in full plate), they really have no reason to complain when I cast holy word.if I make a big show of being a paladin of razmir, who is actually a battle oracle in full plate, and you waste that spell? that's on you, not me. it's not like I'm gonna go around asking for it.
paladin of RAZMIR.
Yeah...that seems like having fun at the other player's expense.
Explore, report, cooperate. Way to humiliate your teammate for trying to help you.
if someone honestly didn't know who razmir was, and hadn't figured it out yet based on my roleplay, I would break character and tell them not to waste the spell. I would hope at the very least the GM would intervene and ask for a knowledge religion check.
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If someone tells me that they are playing a paladin (and really just play a neutral rogue in full plate), they really have no reason to complain when I cast holy word.if I make a big show of being a paladin of razmir, who is actually a battle oracle in full plate, and you waste that spell? that's on you, not me. it's not like I'm gonna go around asking for it.
paladin or RAZMIR.
Yeah...that seems like having fun at the other player's expense.
Explore, report, cooperate. Way to humiliate your teammate for trying to help you.
"Waste the spell"? What the heck are you guys talking about?
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I should know because I'm a player not a character, and I asked you a simple question, and you decided that rather than being a polite human being in a social situation, you would rather lie.
It's not about the gameplay in the least, it's about basic civility in a social activity. Remove PFS from it completely. If I sit next to you on the bus and we strike up a conversation, and I ask you what book you're reading, and you lie to me about what book it is, you're being a jerk. Even if I never notice what the cover actually said, even if doesn't change my day in the slightest, that's simply not being nice.
I'm gonna point out, again, that you are coming across extremely jerkish in your crusade again jerks. Maybe crank up the politeness a tad before having the pot call the kettle black?
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Did... did you guys actually read Sebastian's post? You both seem to be talking about fooling a player into wasting a spell, which is not at all what he described.
I wasn't familiar with the spell, just looked it up. that particular spell wouldn't happen in PFS, but similar spells shouldn't be tossed about willy-nilly. I've never played in a party with all good characters. anything like that would likely affect more than just me.
and even so, that's on me, not him. just like my dhampir that refuses to tell anyone of his heritage. I warn people not to heal me. if someone channels to harm undead, that's comically bad for me but I don't blame them. I just try to stay out of the way.
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Or be useful and describe your character in a way, that is useful for other characters.I do describe my character in a way that's useful. It's just that they stop listening (or retroactively ignore it) as soon as they hear a class name. Giving an even longer description isn't going to make them listen more.
Something like: I am playing a fighter, and since he somehow is the most intelligent character in the group, I am the leader. Who wants to argue with the guy with the big sword? ^^Except he's not a leader and uses a flail rather than a sword. See what I mean about assumptions? ;)
And besides, even when I'd point out the intelligence, it didn't change people's behavior.Or: I am playing something like a warpriest, I can heal in combat, but I really don't want to, so don't try to force me by ruining your AC. My character is confident in her ability to enter melee and support the other front line characters, and will actively try to support you there.He doesn't "support the other front line characters", he IS the front-line character. Sometimes the best among them. See? Even when warned, you still make assumptions. It's so deeply ingrained you almost can't help it.
Or: I am playing a very nice character with apparently some serious anger problems and some kind of bloodline. I can use a useful range of wands from level 1, and might even be able to use surprise our enemies with my cool bloodline powers. Please don't assume, that I will fit the cliche of the stupid unlearned barbarian, cause that will not be me.Nope, no anger problems. See what I mean about the assumptions?
Something like this, but I think the bigger issue is not answering properly to straight questions.If my indirect answer actually leaves you better-informed than a more direct answer would have, then where does the issue really lie?
If players don't listen to you, or just make assumptions, that can quickly cross into the vague "don't be a jerk" territory. And there is pretty little you can do about it.
A fighter without a sword... what a crazy world, but yeah obviously everybody has expectations and we have to deal with them. Considering the number of possible archetype and class combinations, few things can be taken as a given.
And obviously making those descriptions, without details is a bit hard to write something short about them. And I am too lazy to write :
"Welcome I/we are [insert mental state of mind] to [list mode of perception] you. I/We self identify as [insert descriptive term] and my/our preferred term is [insert term]. In [situation] I/we am/are willing/unwilling to assist/doom you/everybody by/with [insert wonderful/terrible things(s)] if you don't mind.
My class/race/affiliation prevents me / requires me to [insert activity] ........"
At some point this really becomes Mad Lips. ^^
As long as you disseminate all relevant information, I have no complaints. But when I am sitting at at a table with plenty of martials, I might not bother to read the complete description of the skald's inspired rage. If I learn in the middle of combat, that the fighter is actually a magus.. .well he might not be able to cast.
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I asked you a simple question, and you decided that rather than being a polite human being in a social situation, you would rather lie.
It's not about the gameplay in the least, it's about basic civility in a social activity. Remove PFS from it completely. If I sit next to you on the bus and we strike up a conversation, and I ask you what book you're reading, and you lie to me about what book it is, you're being a jerk. Even if I never notice what the cover actually said, even if doesn't change my day in the slightest, that's simply not being nice.
Wait, what? If you ask me what I'm reading on the bus and I don't want to tell you, I'm a jerk? Huh?
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I should know because I'm a player not a character, and I asked you a simple question, and you decided that rather than being a polite human being in a social situation, you would rather lie.It's not about the gameplay in the least, it's about basic civility in a social activity. Remove PFS from it completely. If I sit next to you on the bus and we strike up a conversation, and I ask you what book you're reading, and you lie to me about what book it is, you're being a jerk. Even if I never notice what the cover actually said, even if doesn't change my day in the slightest, that's simply not being nice.
sounds like someone has entitlement issues. if you are another player at the table, I am obligated to be polite to you and not attack you. that's it. I don't have to tell you character backstory that's not pertinent to the adventure. I don't even have to heal you if I choose not to.
if you sit next to me on the bus and ask what book I'm reading, I'd probably ignore you. let me guess, you encounter a LOT of jerks, don't you? perhaps you should lessen your parameters for what you construe to be a jerk.
From the majority of comments I've seen in this thread, it really looks like society games are primarily a mechanics based war game.
When I first started playing D&D way back in the day, the DMs I played with actively discouraged showing anyone else your character sheet. Part of the roll playing process was learning about the other characters. You were encouraged to interact with each other in character to learn more about who you were playing with. When the other characters in the game are reduced to a pile of stats and attributes, they are kind of diminished. Suddenly it like "why interact with that guy? I already know everything about him."
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As long as you disseminate all relevant information, I have no complaints.
Good. :)
My comments are mainly centered around the idea that some people think "all relevant information" MUST include class. I contest that idea, because in my experience, mentioning my class often results in the listener retaining LESS of the "relevant information".
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"Waste the spell"? What the heck are you guys talking about?
I'm talking about:
"I cast enlarge person on our exceedingly handsome warrior!"
"It fails. When I said I was exceedingly handsome, you should have realized I'm an Aasimar. l2pathfinder noob."
"I cast owl's wisdom on the cleric. Should help with your spells, right?"
"Nah. I'm a Razmiran Priest. I use Charisma. Thanks for the buffs to saves, I guess? Dummy."
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From the majority of comments I've seen in this thread, it really looks like society games are primarily a mechanics based war game.
When I first started playing D&D way back in the day, the DMs I played with actively discouraged showing anyone else your character sheet. Part of the roll playing process was learning about the other characters. You were encouraged to interact with each other in character to learn more about who you were playing with. When the other characters in the game are reduced to a pile of stats and attributes, they are kind of diminished. Suddenly it like "why interact with that guy? I already know everything about him."
If that's what you got, then I don't believe you really read the majority of comments in this thread.
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I told you. I'm playing a cleric of razmir. I'll keep you alive, do everything a cleric is supposed to do, and I'll also spend the entire time evangelizing about razmir's awesomeness. you know, ROLE PLAY.
how does that make me a jerk?
What actually happens? Is it :
Your character: "I am a cleric of Razmir, thus far I have ascended to the Xth step and I am on my way to godhood. Can I interest you in some instructive pamphlets ?
or
You: "I am playing a "cleric" or Razmir, he is a true believer and hopes to convince all of your characters to join him on the one true path".
or
You: "I am playing a cleric of Razmir, and he is a pretty mean healer"
There is a difference there. I am not suggesting ill intent, but especially considering newer player who might not know about Razmir's questionable claim to godhood..
why can't it be all three?
the character was an orphaned vishkanya that looked more human that reptile. as a child, and not a very bright one, one of the older kids at the orphanage told him razmir was his dad. he believed him.
ever since, he has devoted his life to "daddy" and even managed to bootstrap himself into the ability to ACTUALLY heal people, and quite well. he THINKS razmir has blessed him with this gift because he's really that stupid, but he means well.
he literally believes himself to be the son of the living god, and can back up such claims with some SERIOUS healing along the way (cure light spell like ability 16 times a day, channel positive energy, actual spells, etc).
in my experience, most people don't want to hear all of this. most people hear razmir and metagame "false god: even tho most characters would have no idea that's the case. this character has the masks of living god story arc on him as GM credit.
and he is ACTUALLY a healer, just an arcane one. when I tell people I'm a cleric of razmir, I actually am a cleric of razmir. I am a dedicated healer with face skills...
I am not arguing with the whole backstory. I am worried about the fact, that when characters throw around game terms and other characters take this as a given.
If you tell other players, that your character can heal without requiring a UMD roll in the middle of combat (you really don't want those to fail) can use a large number of scrolls, is a spellcaster and can use a lot of items using UMD. That is all fine, just don't use the game term cleric.
You can say, that you are a priest, a devoted follower, the high priest of Razmir... everything. But once you use a game term, people have expectations.
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"Waste the spell"? What the heck are you guys talking about?I'm talking about:
"I cast enlarge person on our exceedingly handsome warrior!"
"It fails. When I said I was exceedingly handsome, you should have realized I'm an Aasimar. l2pathfinder noob.""I cast owl's wisdom on the cleric. Should help with your spells, right?"
"Nah. I'm a Razmiran Priest. I use Charisma. Thanks for the buffs to saves, I guess? Dummy."
I don't recall any of those things being in the post(s) you were replying to when you and melf were talking about someone wasting a spell.
From the majority of comments I've seen in this thread, it really looks like society games are primarily a mechanics based war game. []
When I first started playing D&D way back in the day
Yeah, don't try that "we role played back then" dross on a board full of people who were there too. There was just as much murderhoboing, munchkininig and killing things because it wasn't human and had loot "back in the day" as there ever is now. More probably, we have mechanics to deal with talking to things now at least...
the DMs I played with actively discouraged showing anyone else your character sheet. Part of the roll playing process was learning about the other characters. You were encouraged to interact with each other in character to learn more about who you were playing with. When the other characters in the game are reduced to a pile of stats and attributes, they are kind of diminished. Suddenly it like "why interact with that guy? I already know everything about him."
And when you have a campaign going on thats a better way of going about it. The problem as mentioned above is that PFS is episodic, you don't always get the time to really know the other characters unless you play together frequently. If you have a regular pfs crowd thats an option. If you're playing at a con with people you might see twice a year if you're lucky.. not so much.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Ha! That's why I specifically mentioned that we were already having a conversation in the example in question, not that I stalked up and whispered "whatcha readin?" in your ear.Wait, what? If you ask me what I'm reading on the bus and I don't want to tell you, I'm a jerk? Huh?I asked you a simple question, and you decided that rather than being a polite human being in a social situation, you would rather lie.
It's not about the gameplay in the least, it's about basic civility in a social activity. Remove PFS from it completely. If I sit next to you on the bus and we strike up a conversation, and I ask you what book you're reading, and you lie to me about what book it is, you're being a jerk. Even if I never notice what the cover actually said, even if doesn't change my day in the slightest, that's simply not being nice.
Uh, no, being in a conversation does not oblige me to answer all your questions.
But we're kinda getting away from Pathfinder here.
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"Waste the spell"? What the heck are you guys talking about?I'm talking about:
"I cast enlarge person on our exceedingly handsome warrior!"
"It fails. When I said I was exceedingly handsome, you should have realized I'm an Aasimar. l2pathfinder noob.""I cast owl's wisdom on the cleric. Should help with your spells, right?"
"Nah. I'm a Razmiran Priest. I use Charisma. Thanks for the buffs to saves, I guess? Dummy."
I have yet to play at a table where someone just started assigning buffs randomly. typically at the beginning of the scenario, the wizard asks "who wants enlarge person?" or the like. even if it's out of character, there is some discussion about it.
why would you just start casting spells on people without their consent? even ones you deem beneficial? hell, we have one kid that regularly plays with us that refuses to use magic out of personal preference. if you cast a buff on him he'd probably leave and never come back. right or wrong (and that kid is a little crazy), you should still be clearing that kind of thing with the player. what if they have SR? what if they have a stat item already?
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why would you just start casting spells on people without their consent? even ones you deem beneficial? hell, we have one kid that regularly plays with us that refuses to use magic out of personal preference. if you cast a buff on him he'd probably leave and never come back. right or wrong (and that kid is a little crazy), you should still be clearing that kind of thing with the player. what if they have SR? what if they have a stat item already?
Maybe because the person in question has made it clear they're not going to answer any questions about their character so you stop asking?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Maybe because the person in question has made it clear they're not going to answer any questions about their character so you stop asking?
Sort of like when people make it clear that they're not going to listen to any character description after hearing class names so I stop telling them class names?
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If you tell other players, that your character can heal without requiring a UMD roll in the middle of combat (you really don't want those to fail) can use a large number of scrolls, is a spellcaster and can use a lot of items using UMD. That is all fine, just don't use the game term cleric.
You can say, that you are a priest, a devoted follower, the high priest of Razmir... everything. But once you use a game term, people have expectations.
I WANT them to have those expectations.
I can channel positive four times a day. I can cast cure light wounds 22 (!) times a day. I can cast cure moderate four times a day. I can cast cure serious twice a day. I can cast breath of life twice. I can also not fail to use a wand or a scroll lower than caster level 5th. and of those I have ample. all the cleric goodies. remove disease, remove paralysis, remove blindness/deafness, etc.
I want people to think of me as a cleric. I want them to wonder how I'm able to do everything a cleric can do without having a real deity. I want them to get interested in razmir as a viable option, because I love the fluff of it all.
what is wrong with people having expectations that I act like a cleric, when I do in fact act like a cleric?
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why would you just start casting spells on people without their consent? even ones you deem beneficial? hell, we have one kid that regularly plays with us that refuses to use magic out of personal preference. if you cast a buff on him he'd probably leave and never come back. right or wrong (and that kid is a little crazy), you should still be clearing that kind of thing with the player. what if they have SR? what if they have a stat item already?Maybe because the person in question has made it clear they're not going to answer any questions about their character so you stop asking?
when did anyone ever say they would not answer questions about their characters? both jiggy and I have stated we supply all sorts of info about our characters.
and even if I did refuse, why would you feel compelled to do so anyway? why wouldn't you just ask, "would this help you? do you want it?"
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if someone honestly didn't know who razmir was, and hadn't figured it out yet based on my roleplay, I would break character and tell them not to waste the spell. I would hope at the very least the GM would intervene and ask for a knowledge religion check.If someone tells me that they are playing a paladin (and really just play a neutral rogue in full plate), they really have no reason to complain when I cast holy word.if I make a big show of being a paladin of razmir, who is actually a battle oracle in full plate, and you waste that spell? that's on you, not me. it's not like I'm gonna go around asking for it.
paladin of RAZMIR.
Yeah...that seems like having fun at the other player's expense.
Explore, report, cooperate. Way to humiliate your teammate for trying to help you.
I apparently wasn't clear, but that spell as well as the lover level versions, is usually something I want to use against evil enemies, unintentionally catching a neutral party member in the area of effect would not be my intention.
However if a player describes himself as a paladin, the fact, that he might not be LG, really does not enter into my expectations until he is suddenly and unexpectedly blinded.
Did... did you guys actually read Sebastian's post? You both seem to be talking about fooling a player into wasting a spell, which is not at all what he described.I wasn't familiar with the spell, just looked it up. that particular spell wouldn't happen in PFS, but similar spells shouldn't be tossed about willy-nilly. I've never played in a party with all good characters. anything like that would likely affect more than just me.
and even so, that's on me, not him. just like my dhampir that refuses to tell anyone of his heritage. I warn people not to heal me. if someone channels to harm undead, that's comically bad for me but I don't blame them. I just try to stay out of the way.
Holy Word is very much PFS legal, just not that easy to access in the lower levels. Holy Smite by virtue of being a level 4 spell is far easier to access though, and might result in an unintentional TPK.
If your Dhampir makes it very clear that other characters are under no circumstances allowed to heal him using conjuration:healing magic, that should be enough in most situations. Even so, any character with knowledge religion should get at least a roll to recognize your race (a rather easy one, considering the HD), and this very much includes enemy spellcasters with access to control undead and similar effects.
Since you already mentioned that you would break character to avoid certain situations, my complaints about this kind of behavior are more softened quite a bit.
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and even if I did refuse, why would you feel compelled to do so anyway? why wouldn't you just ask, "would this help you? do you want it?"
Because once it becomes clear that you're playing "hide the character" I'm probably going to interact with you as little as possible while still trying to complete our objectives as a team.
You're absolutely welcome to play Pathfinder the way you want. I'm just telling you that being coy is going to grate on my nerves. And I'm only doing that because you asked.
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Since you already mentioned that you would break character to avoid certain situations, my complaints about this kind of behavior are more softened quite a bit.
As are mine. Downgraded to 'eyeroll level 2' from 'avoid sitting with this player at all costs.'
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From the majority of comments I've seen in this thread, it really looks like society games are primarily a mechanics based war game.
When I first started playing D&D way back in the day, the DMs I played with actively discouraged showing anyone else your character sheet. Part of the roll playing process was learning about the other characters. You were encouraged to interact with each other in character to learn more about who you were playing with. When the other characters in the game are reduced to a pile of stats and attributes, they are kind of diminished. Suddenly it like "why interact with that guy? I already know everything about him."
Sorry, but you have just been ordered to join 3-4 other characters on a mission with at least a 95 % chance of combat and you are likely never to see those people again after that mission. You need to know their tactical capabilities right now to increase your chance to survive the mission...why would you not try to get as much relevant information as prossible?
Ye olde school D&D and PFS are two very different things.
why would you just start casting spells on people without their consent? even ones you deem beneficial?
Because no one would turn down a beneficial spell?
hell, we have one kid that regularly plays with us that refuses to use magic out of personal preference. if you cast a buff on him he'd probably leave and never come back.
That level of objection is not what needs the warning, not "hey, incoming haste spell"
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Contributor
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Pinstripedbarbarian: I fail to see in the least how I am being impolite, but you keep saying that. Melferburque and I are having a difference of opinion, I do not see my messages as being impolite and I don't see melferburque's messages as being so either, even if we disagree about play etiquette.
From what I've seen in this thread, your comments could be boiled down to:
- "You're a jerk because your definition of politeness does not exactly coincide with mine."
- "You're lying to me because I asked for information and you described the answer rather than using an exact term I was expecting."
- "You need to lighten up! I hate when people aren't light hearted enough! You're causing slight problems for me WHY WON'T YOU LIGHTEN UP?!"
You've called him a jerk multiple times and said he is rude. Now you're saying you 'don't see melferburque's messages as being so either.' I think their is a disconnect there.
If you ask a player what they are playing and they describe their roles without a Class Name, they did not lie to you. That's not lying. If you then ask specifically what class they are, and they say something vague like "I'm a priest of Razmir" that's still not lying, that's withholding information. You could, then, pointedly ask what their actual Class is, but they have every right to respond "I'd rather not tell you. I told you what my character does and how I intend to play him. The Class's name isn't what's important about the character."
If you have specific questions because you want to know how to work with the character, like what a character's casting stat is or what weapon they use or what skill is important to them, then ask that. Demanding that you hear the words "Cleric" or "Swashbuckler" or "Alchemist" is demeaning to the character and the player who spent time building them.
I have seven bards in PFS, and you can ask anyone that's played with me, none of them are remotely alike. I have a utility-belt-bard, a stupid 'bard-barian', a know it all librarian, a shy guy, a cowboy, a death metal singer, and a dovahkin. A few might share roles like buffing or debuffing or damage or whatever, but NONE of them can be boiled down to the word "BARD". And every one of them would be "BARD" if I answered the way you expect.
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Since you already mentioned that you would break character to avoid certain situations, my complaints about this kind of behavior are more softened quite a bit.
if someone asks if my paladin is lawful good, I would get outrage and demand an apology all the while shaking my head vigorously and waving my arms in the universal "no way!" gesture.
I've yet to have such a misunderstanding come up, however. it's usually pretty obvious.
and by all means, I have no problem with opposed checks to learn things like race. however, good luck figuring out my "cleric" isn't human. he has a +18 disguise AND is wearing a mask. like I mentioned before, he doesn't even know he isn't human. he also doesn't have an aura, which is a pretty good indicator he's not a real cleric.