Grappling with no hands free

[Yiroep]

I had a person at a PFS table try to grapple with no hands free. This is what I found in the grapple rules that pertained to it:

Grapple Rules wrote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

It was argued that it says nothing about needing any hands free, only that the character took -4 for not having two hands free.

Does this seem legit? I don't think it does, but I can't find any text to say otherwise. Any help is appreciated!

[MurphysParadox]

Seems reasonable to me. You can grapple with your legs and arms without actually using your hands, but it is definitely harder. -4 to the check is a reasonably large penalty.

[LazarX]

Yiroep wrote:

I had a person at a PFS table try to grapple with no hands free. This is what I found in the grapple rules that pertained to it:

Grapple Rules wrote:

Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll.

It was argued that it says nothing about needing any hands free, only that the character took -4 for not having two hands free.

Does this seem legit? I don't think it does, but I can't find any text to say otherwise. Any help is appreciated!

The rule means that grappling with anything LESS than two hands free meant taking a minus 4, as in grappling with ONLY ONE HAND. Unforunately they did not add the rules lawyer extension to address bi upper limb amputees.

[Weirdo]

I would agree that the -4 penalty should be for one hand and no hands should be harder (-8?) but the actual rule is -4 for one or no hands.

[Byakko]

I once had a GM argue that a non-humanoid (ie a bear) would have a -4 to grapple checks, because it had no "hands" to grapple with.

Personally, I think it's best to use the -4 penalty whenever a creature is not using its full array of "manipulators" to full effect.

Thus a raptor would take a -4 penalty to grapple if one of its forelimbs was bound. A T-Rex, on the other hand, would take no such penalty as its tiny arms really aren't a primary means of manipulation for it.