Go wild, folks.
You've been given permission.
Actually, it's not entirely like a broken ATM, but you'll be so shocked at the risk to reward ratio, that you'll wonder why you've hunted anything else.
We lost our Mordant Spire escalation recently (because it was crazy hard and we couldn't endure the frequent hits to durability, nor organize enough people often enough to keep it in check).
So, needing a new way to have a chance at tier 2 recipes Golgothans fanned out across the map to take a look at other escalations.
Within minutes of finding the Ustalav Knights escalation my personal hero (I'm not sure if he'd mind being named) informs us (AND GOBLINWORKS) that he's soloing the place as well as the fact that there are red and purple casters completely incapable of harming him.
So, those evil Golgothans report the bug that others have been apparently farming for weeks.
So I'm being completely serious when I say go wild and catch up. The devs seem to be encouraging you to, in the post I linked above.
It will, coincidentally, help you catch up to our (hard-earned) tier 2 stuff, as well as to other people's hard earned tier 2 stuff (assuming the Moloch cultists aren't broken too) but that can't be helped, now.
Go wild.
ahh, deflection. How predictable.
The mob AI is the same for everyone everywhere, Whether you are fighting bandits, goblins, ogres or escalations.
Golgotha couldn't defeat our escalation, nor keep it in check to prevent the Fail Boss from showing up, We were also constantly communicating our difficulty and experiences to devs in this very forum.
And, we immediately communicated the EASE AND BROKENNESS of the next tier 2 escalation we got to, even though it would have been very very convenient to just be quiet and farm the heck out of it.
We obeyed the TOS.
Did you?
Unfortunate situation and unfortunate response by GW.
This may not be the entirety of their response.
I want them to take their time and handle this well.
Can you blame GoblinWorks when alpha testers with an encyclopedic knowledge of the game (who print better guides than GW can) conceal the bugs they discover in alpha and use their secrets to gain and equip recruits?
I blame the exploit(ish)ers.
GW has the leisure and the means to derive the best set of responses available to them, and I'm almost sure this is all they've been thinking about last night on their drives home.
But yes it is an unfortunate situation, and your opinion on their response is as valid as anyone else's. I'm just pointing out that the one response I linked doesn't rule out additional responses.
You were taking advantage of the fact that the poor AI allowed you to effectively farm a T2 escalation in T1 gear. Now you can't do that, you are complaining that other people are able to do the same. Get over it.
EVERYONE is going to be visiting the Ustalav Knights this week and EVERYONE will see just what the situation is and how they should have been reported broken within MINUTES of arriving there.
When the Mordant Spire respawns somewhere everyone will be able to visit them, and I welcome other players to fight Mordant Spire in T1 gear (especially with 70,000 xp characters) and compare the 2 experiences.
That's it, basically. Everyone will be able to compare the 2 experiences, and I predict every NEW arrival to the Ustalav Knights will agree that they should have been reported by the first alpha testers to encounter them.
But you also forgot to answer my question. ;-)
Lets hope you're right. I would expect them to say "We can't fix it until the next patch but we consider it abuse to continue to farm these NPCs"
Not: Go ahead and fill up yer loot bags while you can!
That's a totally fair and reasonable opinion.
How would you suggest they address the unfairness of the majority of their players being innocent, yet falling behind the power curve in an open world PvP game, through no fault of their own?
Goblin Squad Member
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At this point, I am not overly worried about "easy" T2 recipe drops. Now that it is known to be a good loot pinata, different groups will get their swings at it.
Right now, the game still needs to seed a lot of T2 production with slightly higher drops. The profit and edge that those groups make now will be short lived. Even now, since coin is sort of worthless, most of those who are making T2 are trading in resources. (my guess is resource to make + 25% extra)
To the victor go the spoils.
If you are only just now scouting that area then your *scouting* company needs a kick in the pants. No one to blame but yourself on that.
Perhaps some "scouts" (including alpha testers) forgot to read the Terms Of Service.
Dont cheat.
If you find some condition, combination of actions, location, or feature that is broken or provides you an advantage you should not have due to a bug, don't do that thing. Report it.
Such scouts deserve a walloping kick in the pants, and they just might get it.
I'm stepping away from this thread for at least a few hours. I just wanted to let players on Paizo know what the devs said, in case they don't haunt the GW forums, as well as to encourage players to visit.
I'm not interested in people who might be banned tomorrow trying to turn this into a flame war locked thread as their last act. It might simply make more sense to see who is left standing a week from now and crowdforge with THEM instead.
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Goblin Squad Member
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But you also forgot to answer my question. ;-)
I've visited the Ustalav's twice, with a group. The first time I stayed long enough to take down 2 groups before we decided it wasn't worth the effort. The second time we took down a lot of groups, but I can honestly say, as a rogue, I wasn't standing still long enough to work out what damage each mob was or wasn't doing. I was too busy dancing to Yakety Sax.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Saying "Go fill up yer loot bags while you can" sends the opposite message to the player base and in the future it will be hard to justify holding people accountable for exploiting as past practice will say it's OK until fixed.
I think the message is, "Since everyone knows of this, it is no longer an exploit." Also this is a short term opportunity for those that want to take advantage of it.
Even if I don't go there and try to get the loot myself, it still puts it in circulation. More T2 recipes right now add to the immediate supply. So I still will benefit from all this farming since it will lead to lower/stable T2 prices quicker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It turns out that some of the Ustalav Invaders, in particular their spellcasters, are much easier to defeat than they were intended to be. This makes them a particularly tempting target to go after for Tier 2 drops. We're going to fix this soon, but until they're fixed, those of you with a PvE bent might consider hunting them down.
And for those of you with more of a PvP bent, I'd like to point out that players loaded down with Tier 2 loot also make tempting targets. Just something to consider.
Enjoy!
If that is not a clear invitation by a developer for everyone to take advantage of the situation until they get it fixed in EE4, I don't know what is. He even encouraged PVPers to hunt down the new T2 loot equipped "mobile resource nodes" to make it more interesting. :)
By making this public knowledge it gives all settlements a chance to catch up on their "loot piñatas" and levels the playing field.
How some people see this as a broken exploit I don't understand, its like they didn't even bother to read the linked quote in full; or, just because it was a Golgothian who pointed it out, it automatically made the post evil, abusive and exploitive...
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Goblin Squad Member
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... they should have been reported by the first alpha testers to encounter them.
You're probably right, and I apologize to GW for not reporting it sooner. Sppitfire and I encountered an Ustalav Invaders escalation in Alpha and noticed at that time that the Prelates/Casters didn't do any real damage. We posted a bit about our experiences there, but it actually didn't occur to me that the Prelates/Casters were bugged - I just chalked it up to a "minimum viable" NPC AI and moved along. It wasn't until a Party Member started using Electric Brand on one last weekend that I realized they would start using very damaging attacks once their Stamina was reduced. I reported that as soon as I could.
I think there will be lots of situations like this where "innocent" (read as "naive" if you must) players might not really recognize how it can be exploited. The fact that the game is incomplete with a number of known bugs that aren't on a high priority fix list means that those kinds of players tend to be much more accepting of the weird things they see. Or, they encounter something weird and then avoid it instead of really digging into it to try to find out exactly what's happening - such as some of the weird things that happen around hex borders.
I think you're going too far when you assume anyone who's been farming Ustalav Invaders must have known they were exploiting, or that they deliberately tried to conceal anything from Goblinworks. I mean, sure, it might seem obvious to everyone in hindsight, and it might have been obvious to some folks as soon as they encountered it, but it wasn't obvious to me until a number of different things clicked together.
Still, much respect and kudos to Golgotha for recognizing an exploitable situation and reporting it to Goblinworks. That was the right thing to do and I'm glad you did it.
Monster Hex NW of New Daggermark.
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TEO has been farming the Ustalavians, we have actually reported several bugs AND exploits (which we were told not to use and haven't) that have to deal with that escalation or other escalations. As for the casters, they start out sometimes with an attack, and then debuff, just like in Alpha. If any of you were in Alpha that fought Usties, or were in the Thursday's with Bonnies group know that the current iteration was the same then that it is now. We did contact goblinworks and told them that the AI needed to be fixed/changed or damage added to casters.
I believe after a couple conversations with TEO, TSV figuring out there actually might be a bug there, and others sending in messages as well, they finally figured out there really was an issue.
In general, there is an AI issue with almost all mobs, they don't use the correct attacks, even the Mordent Spire ones are using incorrect attacks. The issue comes in with stamina and how they use their attack economy, mostly they get stuck on spamming certain attacks, which is irritating depending on the attack (archers with interrupts). The major problem I see here is that ALL NPCs/Monsters need an AI overhaul in how they determine what to use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So maybe not as big a problem as some have made it out to be.
The melee ones pack a punch, as appropriate to their color, and the casters debuff you - most likely making it easier for the melee ones to hurt you.
Hmm, is it similar to the way that the Broken Men Escalation elder priests (red) seem to most debuff after the first spell or two? Same AI issue?
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Goblin Squad Member
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So maybe not as big a problem as some have made it out to be.
The melee ones pack a punch, as appropriate to their color, and the casters debuff you - most likely making it easier for the melee ones to hurt you.
Hmm, is it similar to the way that the Broken Men Escalation elder priests (red) seem to most debuff after the first spell or two? Same AI issue?
The debuff lowers your attack damage by a fair bit. Most of the mobs kill you in 3-5 hits, the purples can do it in 2. With a good sized group, though, you can just power through the escalation. It won't change when the casters have their AI changed, you'll just focus fire them first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The debuff lowers your attack damage by a fair bit. Most of the mobs kill you in 3-5 hits, the purples can do it in 2. With a good sized group, though, you can just power through the escalation. It won't change when the casters have their AI changed, you'll just focus fire them first.So maybe not as big a problem as some have made it out to be.
The melee ones pack a punch, as appropriate to their color, and the casters debuff you - most likely making it easier for the melee ones to hurt you.
Hmm, is it similar to the way that the Broken Men Escalation elder priests (red) seem to most debuff after the first spell or two? Same AI issue?
In the end it will all come down to handful of PCs doing focused fire in a predetermined order of attack. Maybe a little CC thrown around slow the mobs, but for the most part this is small group PvE in a nutshell. (For good or bad)
Mob AI is always, for some value, predictable. This is the nature of Computer games. Until we have RPG AI "learn and adapt" such that it can out think players, then this will always be the case. As such once a "trick" is learned, any encounter then becomes a trivial exercise.
Motivation for doing the exercise is the chance of some "good" reward.
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When the Mordant Spire respawns somewhere everyone will be able to visit them, and I welcome other players to fight Mordant Spire in T1 gear (especially with 70,000 xp characters) and compare the 2 experiences.
Not really a fair comparison. It's worth noting that the Mordant Spire mobs are significantly higher level on average than the Ustalav ones - Ustalav escalations have many white/yellow/red mobs mixed in with some purples, Mordant Spire has only a handful of reds and mostly purples. That difference alone makes Ustalav way better for farming in Tier 1 gear than Mordant Spire, regardless of any AI differences.
Even if the Ustalav casters were changed today, for Tier 1-equipped groups it would still be way better (easier/better risk-reward ratio) to fight Ustalav than Mordant Spire.
What were you doing during alpha?
That's it, basically. Everyone will be able to compare the 2 experiences, and I predict every NEW arrival to the Ustalav Knights will agree that they should have been reported by the first alpha testers to encounter them.
I got in towards the end of alpha and reported a bug that allowed you to duplicate your entire inventory. Other than that, nothing much. ;-)
Seriously, I envy people who knew about this game early and those who got to alpha test this a lot. I'd have liked to have a better understanding of the game before committing xp... oh and can you say Destiny's Twin?
But I didn't even hear about the game until well after the kickstarter, landrush, etc, and probably didn't get 12 hours of play/testing in during alpha. I might have killed 40 monsters, total.
I did manage to report what would have been a game breaking item duping bug, but for all I know a hundred other testers might have reported it too.
If I sound (or simply am) judgmental, all I can say is the Terms Of Service ought to be sacrosanct. Anyone who disagrees with THAT is the enemy of all gaming, in my view.
When the Mordant Spire respawns somewhere everyone will be able to visit them, and I welcome other players to fight Mordant Spire in T1 gear (especially with 70,000 xp characters) and compare the 2 experiences.Not really a fair comparison. It's worth noting that the Mordant Spire mobs are significantly higher level on average than the Ustalav ones - Ustalav escalations have many white/yellow/red mobs mixed in with some purples, Mordant Spire has only a handful of reds and mostly purples. That difference alone makes Ustalav way better for farming in Tier 1 gear than Mordant Spire, regardless of any AI differences.
Even if the Ustalav casters were changed today, for Tier 1-equipped groups it would still be way better (easier/better risk-reward ratio) to fight Ustalav than Mordant Spire.
All I'd ask people to compare is the risk to reward ratio, and to judge for themselves (as new arrivals with nothing to hide or be defensive about and with dev permission to exploit-ish) whether they'd have bug reported Ustalavs within minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of hunting there.
I have an opinion. (surprise!) It will be interesting to hear theirs over the coming days.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ouch, sorry you missed out on DT. I agree that the TOS is the bottom line. Anything else is a playstyle difference where I have no problem going to war with you in-character and then high-fiving and trading armor afterward.
Of course, in this particular case, if the devs say, "Enjoy!", I just might try it.
Ouch, sorry you missed out on DT. I agree that the TOS is the bottom line. Anything else is a playstyle difference where I have no problem going to war with you in-character and then high-fiving and trading armor afterward.
Of course, in this particular case, if the devs say, "Enjoy!", I just might try it.
If you're behind on the tier 2 stuff (which previous posts suggest you aren't) I heartily encourage you to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When the Mordant Spire respawns somewhere everyone will be able to visit them, and I welcome other players to fight Mordant Spire in T1 gear (especially with 70,000 xp characters) and compare the 2 experiences.Not really a fair comparison. It's worth noting that the Mordant Spire mobs are significantly higher level on average than the Ustalav ones - Ustalav escalations have many white/yellow/red mobs mixed in with some purples, Mordant Spire has only a handful of reds and mostly purples. That difference alone makes Ustalav way better for farming in Tier 1 gear than Mordant Spire, regardless of any AI differences.
Even if the Ustalav casters were changed today, for Tier 1-equipped groups it would still be way better (easier/better risk-reward ratio) to fight Ustalav than Mordant Spire.
All I'd ask people to compare is the risk to reward ratio, and to judge for themselves (as new arrivals with nothing to hide or be defensive about and with dev permission to exploit-ish) whether they'd have bug reported Ustalavs within minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of hunting there.
I have an opinion. (surprise!) It will be interesting to hear theirs over the coming days.
It just so happens that your opinion is accusing others of exploiting. Others that have supported this game much longer than you and like you (hopefully) want this game to succeed. Excuse us for taking offense to that opinion which was obviously released here to make some kind of statement and perhaps tarnish reputations. Not a good look.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I reported that it's possible to jump up the mountains via the monster hex from the plains in the South East corner. They answered that it's not an exploit, but unintended and would look into it, so I never said anything more. Would sure save time banking in Phaeros if I was there more often.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All I'd ask people to compare is the risk to reward ratio, and to judge for themselves (as new arrivals with nothing to hide or be defensive about and with dev permission to exploit-ish) whether they'd have bug reported Ustalavs within minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of hunting there.
I have an opinion. (surprise!) It will be interesting to hear theirs over the coming days.
There are quicker and easier ways to get high level spells and T2 recipes than the Ustalavs, even if they are bugged. I'm not sure it is quite the issue you think it is. If someone wants to take the time to find small groups with just the weak casters, then fine, but its not time efficient, and there are other hexes where a good group can just steam through reds.
When the Mordant Spire respawns somewhere everyone will be able to visit them, and I welcome other players to fight Mordant Spire in T1 gear (especially with 70,000 xp characters) and compare the 2 experiences.Not really a fair comparison. It's worth noting that the Mordant Spire mobs are significantly higher level on average than the Ustalav ones - Ustalav escalations have many white/yellow/red mobs mixed in with some purples, Mordant Spire has only a handful of reds and mostly purples. That difference alone makes Ustalav way better for farming in Tier 1 gear than Mordant Spire, regardless of any AI differences.
Even if the Ustalav casters were changed today, for Tier 1-equipped groups it would still be way better (easier/better risk-reward ratio) to fight Ustalav than Mordant Spire.
All I'd ask people to compare is the risk to reward ratio, and to judge for themselves (as new arrivals with nothing to hide or be defensive about and with dev permission to exploit-ish) whether they'd have bug reported Ustalavs within minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of hunting there.
I have an opinion. (surprise!) It will be interesting to hear theirs over the coming days.
It just so happens that your opinion is accusing others of exploiting. Others that have supported this game much longer than you and like you (hopefully) want this game to succeed. Excuse us for taking offense to that opinion which was obviously released here to make some kind of statement and perhaps tarnish reputations. Not a good look.
It looks exploit-ish to me. Others will judge for themselves over the next few days and can decide if I am off base. *I* am the one encouraging people to see for themselves.
There are quicker and easier ways to get high level spells and T2 recipes than the Ustalavs, even if they are bugged. I'm not sure it is quite the issue you think it is. If someone wants to take the time to find small groups with just the weak casters, then fine, but its not time efficient, and there are other hexes where a good group can just steam through reds.All I'd ask people to compare is the risk to reward ratio, and to judge for themselves (as new arrivals with nothing to hide or be defensive about and with dev permission to exploit-ish) whether they'd have bug reported Ustalavs within minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of hunting there.
I have an opinion. (surprise!) It will be interesting to hear theirs over the coming days.
You may be right. It might not be as much of an issue as I imagine it to be. I have been stuck slamming my face into Mordant Spires for weeks so that we might be able to run to town or have invited visitors. (The escalation spread to our road hex, LOL).
There's a lot I don't know about what is out there.
And as I keep saying, everyone can judge Ustalavs for themselves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, I'd say I'm probably comparatively behind on T2 stuff. I have exactly two t2 recipes. My high-level sawyer only has the +0 t2 refining abilities that come with the levels. I don't know how everyone else is doing, but probably better than that. Then again I'm not getting stuff through a settlement.
Congratulations you "supported" this game longer, you think that has anything to do with character? Experience maybe. Having supported this game for so much longer is it wrong to suppose that perhaps that you would have been able to see the exploitish nature of the ustalvs upon running into them let alone farming them in 20 man groups for the past week. Even upon discovering the exploitish nature of Ustlavs people are already doing a good job of killing their character by continuing to do them. The honourable thing to do would be to recognize that the ustlavs are not functioning as intended and do other escalations, not defend the Ustlavs to the bitter end. But food for thought I suppose, until this is fixed I will not be touching any Ulstav knights.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are precisely two Ustalavian mobs with issues: Casters and Prelates. The rest function as intended. Now, the casters are red and the prelates are the lowest level of purple. They die in moments to a large group. When their AI is fixed, nothing will change.
If you feel that large groups are an exploit, then I'm afraid you're simply wrong.
If you feel that large groups are an exploit, then I'm afraid you're simply wrong.
Not once did I say that large groups were in exploit reread my post, the only thing problematic with a large group is that there were tons of people there and not one person out of the group thought it peculiar that the casters were not doing damage. And now instead of agreeing and stating that Ustlavs are not working as intended and laying off the escalation people are playing the victims. Actions speak louder than words.
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All I'd ask people to compare is the risk to reward ratio, and to judge for themselves (as new arrivals with nothing to hide or be defensive about and with dev permission to exploit-ish) whether they'd have bug reported Ustalavs within minutes, hours, days, weeks, or months of hunting there.
As I'm sure you're aware, many of the forum population will judge based on the forums alone, and not bother to go and see for themselves in game. I'm just trying to provide more complete information for comparison on the forums.
There's many AI problems. If mobs get stuck pathing to you, would you just shoot them down from a distance anyway or do you run away to reset them so they behave correctly? If you pull a mob in a big group and it doesn't aggro the rest of them when you know it normally should, do you reset and try again until you get the proper response, or do you just kill the one mob?