Shaun |
An ioun torch requires no free hands and sheds light as a torch using continual flame and costs 75 GP. An ever-burning torch does the same exact thing using the same exact spell and costs 110 GP. Why is something that uses up one hand 35 GP more than something that is slot-less? It seems that this should be the other way around, so I must be missing something.
SlimGauge |
SlimGauge wrote:An everburning torch can be placed in fixtures intended for regular torches where a ioun torch cannot.Sure it can. It's still a rock with continual flame on it, even if it's not flying around your head like a hummingbird on crack.
And it will fall right out again without some wire or a bit of sovereign glue or some other means of fixing it.
StabbittyDoom |
An ioun torch is a dull grey ioun stone (25gp) with continual flame cast upon it (50gp material component). That gets you its price of 75gp.
Ostensibly an everburning torch is a spent/unfueled torch (1cp) with continual flame cast upon it (50gp material component). This, if using the logic of the Ioun Torch, should be 50gp, ditching the 1cp cause ain't no-one got time for that.
However! The cost of having a caster cast continual flame for you is, if they are a sorc/wizard, 60gp. This + the 50gp component cost is exactly the everburning torch cost. So it seems they simply neglected this component of the cost when writing up the ioun torch.
If anything, the Everburning Torch price is correct and the Ioun Torch should be 135gp.
Anguish |
Remember that there's been some effort to back-door correct prices that aren't sensible. Paizo won't always go back and change the price for an existing item as that alters pre-printed adventures and so on. But adding another item that works differently and is a more appropriate price-to-usefulness ratio... that's easier to justify.
I'm not saying that's what happened in this particular case, but it's something to keep in mind.
It's more likely that the everburning torch is overpriced.
StabbittyDoom |
To reiterate: The ioun torch price is too low. Should be 135gp.
Everlasting Torch: 1cp (torch) + 50gp (continual flame material component cost) + 60gp (cost to hire a sorc/wiz to cast that spell at minimum caster level) => 110gp, with 1cp dropped to round it, exactly as in the book.
Ioun Torch: 25gp (dull grey ioun stone) + 50gp (as above) + 60gp (as above) => 135gp. The book lists 75gp, which indicates that they left off the spellcaster cost, making it incorrect (the item costs exactly as much as it takes to make it, and LESS than it takes for a non-caster to have it made). This means the book-listed price is basically the price to craft an ioun torch, not the price to buy one.
Either way, doesn't matter. Both are cheap at level 2 and become rounding error well before double digits.
StabbittyDoom |
Both prices are technically correct. It's just that one is if you have it enchanted for you, and the other is when you enchant it yourself. Therefore, there's a disconnect between the two.
Curiously, its craft price is correct (62.5g; 12.5g to make the dull grey ioun stone + 50gp material component). However, the price listed at the top is the market price and is decidedly incorrect from that perspective. Market price should be 135gp, craft price 62.5gp (or 75gp if you buy the dull grey ioun stone).
Price to Craft (with Craft Wondrous): 62.5gp
Price to Craft (without Craft Wondrous): 75gp (have to purchase the dull grey ioun stone)
Price to Craft (w/ Craft, w/o the spell): 122.5gp (have to pay someone else to cast spell)
Price to Purchase: 135gp (25gp dull grey ioun stone, 50gp material component, 60gp spellcasting service cost)
EDIT: It gets even more fun when you consider that a cleric would cost you a minimum of 150gp to hire for the same task, increasing the cost by 90gp for those without the spell.
Starbuck_II |
An ioun torch is a dull grey ioun stone (25gp) with continual flame cast upon it (50gp material component). That gets you its price of 75gp.
Ostensibly an everburning torch is a spent/unfueled torch (1cp) with continual flame cast upon it (50gp material component). This, if using the logic of the Ioun Torch, should be 50gp, ditching the 1cp cause ain't no-one got time for that.
However! The cost of having a caster cast continual flame for you is, if they are a sorc/wizard, 60gp. This + the 50gp component cost is exactly the everburning torch cost. So it seems they simply neglected this component of the cost when writing up the ioun torch.
If anything, the Everburning Torch price is correct and the Ioun Torch should be 135gp.
One is crafted, the other is using spellcasting costs.
So, if you crated an everburning torch, it would be cheaper.
StabbittyDoom |
StabbittyDoom wrote:An ioun torch is a dull grey ioun stone (25gp) with continual flame cast upon it (50gp material component). That gets you its price of 75gp.
Ostensibly an everburning torch is a spent/unfueled torch (1cp) with continual flame cast upon it (50gp material component). This, if using the logic of the Ioun Torch, should be 50gp, ditching the 1cp cause ain't no-one got time for that.
However! The cost of having a caster cast continual flame for you is, if they are a sorc/wizard, 60gp. This + the 50gp component cost is exactly the everburning torch cost. So it seems they simply neglected this component of the cost when writing up the ioun torch.
If anything, the Everburning Torch price is correct and the Ioun Torch should be 135gp.
One is crafted, the other is using spellcasting costs.
So, if you crated an everburning torch, it would be cheaper.
Are you saying it's okay that an item crafted with Continual Flame is allowed to be cheaper for Joe Shmoe to purchase than an identical item created by actually casting the spell? Why allow both with such a difference, or allow it at all?
I agree with Gauss on this one: The problem is that they put it in a standard magic item block instead of just make an entry that said "Ioun Torch (135gp) - Created by crafting a dull grey ioun stone then casting continual flame upon it." Which happens to be exactly what they did for Everburning Torch, which has the right costing.
boring7 |
The cheapest way to buy is in bulk, a 5th level casting of Summon monster 3 can produce 5 everburning things via the Lantern Archon, and at most it costs 375 gold (scroll), more likely a mere 150.
The only way an ioun torch is not superior is if you are using a bullseye lantern to get more distance with your light beam, or otherwise have something that can more quickly be covered up for when you need to "go dark."
Mind you, familiars are pretty good for that.
StabbittyDoom |
The cheapest way to buy is in bulk, a 5th level casting of Summon monster 3 can produce 5 everburning things via the Lantern Archon, and at most it costs 375 gold (scroll), more likely a mere 150.
The only way an ioun torch is not superior is if you are using a bullseye lantern to get more distance with your light beam, or otherwise have something that can more quickly be covered up for when you need to "go dark."
Mind you, familiars are pretty good for that.
Spells cast by summoned creatures end when the summon ends. Since continual flame is permanent, it has a duration and thus ends when the summon ends.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire.
Gauss |
Summoned Lantern Archons cannot create "Everburning things" because any spell effect ceases when they are no longer summoned.
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
StabbittyDoom |
Imho, this is not a rules question.
Second, the formula's for determining cost don't always work.
A torch is 1 copper piece or 11000 torches for one ever-burning torch.There is a reason why nobody buys an ever-burning torch.
That reason is really that virtually every party has someone that can cast Light. Even 10 torches is worse than 1 everburning torch because the former weights 9 more pounds and might set something on fire, which can be a problem in certain circumstances, such as when shoving it into your backpack (sticking out) so you can free up a hand.
I had an everburning torch on a barbarian of mine. Humans need light, yo.
Starbuck_II |
Rikkan wrote:Imho, this is not a rules question.
Second, the formula's for determining cost don't always work.
A torch is 1 copper piece or 11000 torches for one ever-burning torch.There is a reason why nobody buys an ever-burning torch.
That reason is really that virtually every party has someone that can cast Light. Even 10 torches is worse than 1 everburning torch because the former weights 9 more pounds and might set something on fire, which can be a problem in certain circumstances, such as when shoving it into your backpack (sticking out) so you can free up a hand.
I had an everburning torch on a barbarian of mine. Humans need light, yo.
But a normal torch can be useful:
a. Trollsb. Swarms (Tiny are debated here , but the rest)
c. needing to burn objects