Anybody starting to have trouble recognizing their game?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I'd say there's been something of a bait and switch.

First we were told that Paizo's business model was content-centric and they weren't going to be forced to put out rules splats like WotC.

Then the APG and UM came out in quick succession and we were told they were front loading the rules stuff so it would be out, but it was okay and they had learned from WotC's mistakes and were going to stop when they ran out of rules they wanted to have for use in their modules and APs.

Then more and more rules content of less and less value kept coming and it's pretty obvious that they haven't learned from WotC's mistakes and we're going to keep getting poorly designed rules padding to fill two books a year and character building is going from a fun intellectual exercise to a source of stress most people don't have the time or attention to deal with.

At this point, under the paradigm we were originally promised, we shouldn't be seeing new general player options except when something mythic rules are needed to support an AP like WotR.

Shadow Lodge

thejeff wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Good luck transitioning a level 15 AD&D Elven Fighter/Cleric into BECMI without any changes.
The base systems are close enough that you literally do not have to make any changes, that's my point. Will it be a 100% RAW BECMI character? No. But it's playable, and the pre-3E games didn't tend to have as may people waiting with spreadsheets, ready to pounce on tiny errors as SOME editions have.
Actually, transitioning said Ftr/Clr between 3e/3.5e/PF is far simpler than making a move between an edition where elves are a race to an edition where elves are a class.
I think he's not saying "Convert the 2E character to a BECMI character", but just "Plop the 2E character down into a BECMI game and run with it".

Exactly. Which is very possible. I know, we did it often when I was younger. BECMI stuff, 1E stuff, and 2E stuff, all used in a big D&D smorgasbord. We didn't have any B/X D&D or Original D&D stuff, but if we had, it would have been just as easy to use.


thejeff wrote:

So, trying to circle this tangent back around to the original: Is "I like a simpler game and want to restrict this to Core and APG" a sufficient justification? Or does the GM need to provide specific justifications for each individual class, feat, spell or other ability anyone wants from outside those sources?

In other words, is "Just don't use it" an acceptable response to complaints about bloat?

I don't really get bothered by what players run as long as it is not mechanically game breaking, but it really annoys some GM's if a PC has a certain flavor or mechanic even if it is not really impacting the campaign. That goes back to what I said about something being trivial to one person but important to another. Some in these types of discussions have said this topic can go beyond the game into their actual friendship. However I still don't think Paizo is to blame and the extra content is not hurting "the" game. It is hurting "their" game because of that group's dynamics.


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Atarlost wrote:

I'd say there's been something of a bait and switch.

First we were told that Paizo's business model was content-centric and they weren't going to be forced to put out rules splats like WotC.

Then the APG and UM came out in quick succession and we were told they were front loading the rules stuff so it would be out, but it was okay and they had learned from WotC's mistakes and were going to stop when they ran out of rules they wanted to have for use in their modules and APs.

Then more and more rules content of less and less value kept coming and it's pretty obvious that they haven't learned from WotC's mistakes and we're going to keep getting poorly designed rules padding to fill two books a year and character building is going from a fun intellectual exercise to a source of stress most people don't have the time or attention to deal with.

At this point, under the paradigm we were originally promised, we shouldn't be seeing new general player options except when something mythic rules are needed to support an AP like WotR.

I disagree. When Paizo is putting out 150+ page books based around mechanics more than anything else every month then it will be putting out splat like WOTC.

Shadow Lodge

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wraithstrike wrote:
I disagree. When Paizo is putting out 150+ page books based around mechanics more than anything else every month then it will be putting out splat like WOTC.

RPG line + Player Companion line probably averages out to almost that. WotC may have published hardcovers more often, but Paizo is publishing THICKER hardcovers. I'd say the splat coming from Paizo isn't quite at the same level as WotC's 3.5 splat, but it's not that far behind it, either.


Atarlost wrote:
Then more and more rules content of less and less value kept coming and it's pretty obvious that they haven't learned from WotC's mistakes and we're going to keep getting poorly designed rules padding

Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnope. At least nothing more poorly designed than in 3rd, er, I mean 3.5, er, I mean Core. (Because each of those were severely less balanced than most of the new options.)


Atarlost wrote:

I'd say there's been something of a bait and switch.

First we were told that Paizo's business model was content-centric and they weren't going to be forced to put out rules splats like WotC.

Then the APG and UM came out in quick succession and we were told they were front loading the rules stuff so it would be out, but it was okay and they had learned from WotC's mistakes and were going to stop when they ran out of rules they wanted to have for use in their modules and APs.

Then more and more rules content of less and less value kept coming and it's pretty obvious that they haven't learned from WotC's mistakes and we're going to keep getting poorly designed rules padding to fill two books a year and character building is going from a fun intellectual exercise to a source of stress most people don't have the time or attention to deal with.

At this point, under the paradigm we were originally promised, we shouldn't be seeing new general player options except when something mythic rules are needed to support an AP like WotR.

Question: was that paradigm as you describe it ever actually promised? Considering how many Player's Companion books are actually under 3.5 rules, I'm guessing it wasn't.

Edit: Okay, based on Mr. Wertz's post it looks like Paizo'd been aiming for 3 hardbacks a year from launch of the system.

Paizo putting out as much product as they do is the result of them doing well - they can afford to have more people and simply do more.

Being at the top of the market does come with some perks.

I believe the current schedule comes out to something like...

12 64 page AP books (GM focused)
12 32 page Player's Companion Books (Player Focused)
6 64 page Setting books (GM focused, but occasionally very player friendly like Chronicles of the Righteous or the Technology Guide)
4? 64 page Modules (GM focused)
1 Setting or Rules Supplement Hardback (Usually for both Players and GMs (Inner Sea Gods, Ultimate Campaign, etc.))
1 Player's Options Hardback (APG, ARG, MA, ACG, etc. - all stuff that's fair game for the GM, but it's really aimed at making PCs or doing cool stuff with existing PCs)
1 Monster/NPC Related Hardback (GM focused, though might occasionally introduce new player races)

In some years we get a fourth hardback. I think that's happening this year? Unchained, Races of the Inner Sea, Occult Adventures, and the monster book?

I don't think the player-directed content is drowning out the GM content. Rather, a lot of books are meant for use on both sides of the table.

As to future 5E product: I believe at this point the D&D5E rules team is about half the size of Pathfinder's rules team (counting designers, developers, the modules team, etc.)? If WotC/Hasbro's already hamstrung the 5E team, I'm curious as to what they'll actually be able to do.

I guess there's a subset of gamers that'll be happy if all 5E does is put out adventures, but considering WotC & Hasbro's resources that's a very timid strategy.


I agree with Kthulu on how compatible OD&D through AD&D 2e was. (PS, that does not mean I want to be eaten first or at all...sleep...sleep deeply Kthulu)

However, the chain of continuity really goes OD&D - AD&D - 2e with a separate chain that sort of went OD&D - Holmes - B/X - BECMI - RC.

Interestingly, even though BECMI and 2e were three iterations of the game down, they both were more compatible with each other than 5e and PF overall.

You might not transition 15th AD&D Fighter/Cleric to a D&D class, but instead you could simply keep it as the AD&D fighter/Cleric and have them operate that way. You could run a party where you had a Fighter/Cleric (which BECMI had rules for, or implied rules starting in the Master set if I recall) alongside all the other characters of the BECMI D&D game...side by side...fighting the same enemies...finding the same treasure...etc.

THOUGH...if they were an elf at 15th level for Fighter/Cleric...I think technically that character was breaking the rules.


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wraithstrike wrote:
thejeff wrote:

So, trying to circle this tangent back around to the original: Is "I like a simpler game and want to restrict this to Core and APG" a sufficient justification? Or does the GM need to provide specific justifications for each individual class, feat, spell or other ability anyone wants from outside those sources?

In other words, is "Just don't use it" an acceptable response to complaints about bloat?

I don't really get bothered by what players run as long as it is not mechanically game breaking, but it really annoys some GM's if a PC has a certain flavor or mechanic even if it is not really impacting the campaign. That goes back to what I said about something being trivial to one person but important to another. Some in these types of discussions have said this topic can go beyond the game into their actual friendship. However I still don't think Paizo is to blame and the extra content is not hurting "the" game. It is hurting "their" game because of that group's dynamics.

Isn't whether it is 'really impacting" the game up to the person? It is really impacting it ... For them.


Zhangar wrote:
In some years we get a fourth hardback. I think that's happening this year? Unchained, Races of the Inner Sea, Occult Adventures, and the monster book?

Don't forget the most important one...the Strategy Guide. At least for my group I think that's going to be the most important one.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Atarlost wrote:

I'd say there's been something of a bait and switch.

First we were told that Paizo's business model was content-centric and they weren't going to be forced to put out rules splats like WotC.

Then the APG and UM came out in quick succession and we were told they were front loading the rules stuff so it would be out, but it was okay and they had learned from WotC's mistakes and were going to stop when they ran out of rules they wanted to have for use in their modules and APs.

Then more and more rules content of less and less value kept coming and it's pretty obvious that they haven't learned from WotC's mistakes and we're going to keep getting poorly designed rules padding to fill two books a year and character building is going from a fun intellectual exercise to a source of stress most people don't have the time or attention to deal with.

At this point, under the paradigm we were originally promised, we shouldn't be seeing new general player options except when something mythic rules are needed to support an AP like WotR.

Here is (I believe) the earliest public mention of our release strategy for the RPG line, posted January 8, 2009, more than 8 months before the release of the Core Rulebook:

Erik Mona wrote:
The current plan is to release between 2-3 hardcover rulebooks per year, including additional Pathfinder Bestiaries.

Here's the actual hardcover rulebook release schedule. (Each "year" starts at Gen Con.)

2009–10: Core Rulebook, Bestiary, GameMastery Guide
2010–11: Advanced Player's Guide, Bestiary 2, Ultimate Magic
2011–12: Ultimate Combat, Bestiary 3, Advanced Race Guide
2012–13: Ultimate Equipment, NPC Codex, Ultimate Campaign
2013–14: Mythic Adventures, Bestiary 4
2014–15: Advanced Class Guide, Monster Codex, Pathfinder Unchained
2015–16: Occult Adventures (et seq.)

I'm not counting the Strategy Guide because it contains no new rules, but you could argue it belongs in the empty slot after Bestiary 4, which is when it was originally scheduled to come out, or in between Monster Codex and Pathfinder Unchained, which is when it's actually coming out.

So, yeah, total bait-and-switch, if "bait-and-switch" means we told you what we were going to do long before we did it, and then continued doing exactly what we said for 6+ years.

Also, I believe your comment about "front-loading the rules stuff" is probably a misremembering of something we said about front-loading the classes into the APG, UM, and UC. (Which is why we didn't do any more for 3 years.)


Kthulhu wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I disagree. When Paizo is putting out 150+ page books based around mechanics more than anything else every month then it will be putting out splat like WOTC.
RPG line + Player Companion line probably averages out to almost that. WotC may have published hardcovers more often, but Paizo is publishing THICKER hardcovers. I'd say the splat coming from Paizo isn't quite at the same level as WotC's 3.5 splat, but it's not that far behind it, either.

What is the RPG line?

I am sure that Paizo will pass WoTC in total volume but that was not in question. What we are discussing is the pace so I still say WoTC is would be winning that race going by the 3.x release schedule.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I feel much like Atarlost, but Vic is entirely correct. There's even 3 years between Ultimate Combat and Advanced Class Guide with no new classes, although the playtesting cuts off about a year.

Liberty's Edge

The promising of trying to keep bloat and releasing new rules should have never been made imo. Myself and my gaming group knew from the start that it was a promise Paizo could not really keep. With all due respect to the devs who work at Paizo. When I broke the news to my gaming group before I ran a session. We had a laugh at their expense. None of us beleived it then. We don't now. I'm a fan of Earthdawn 3E. They had less releases then PF before the switch to 4E. Ars Magica has a decent amount of material as well. Released over a period of years. While we don't need the level of support that 2E/3E had. I think it's impossible for them not release a certain amount of new material.


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memorax wrote:
The promising of trying to keep bloat and releasing new rules should have never been made imo.

I've been over this before, and what I pointed out was that Wizards put out, in the five years that 3.5 existed, the following books for Greyhawk/generic D&D:

PHB
PHBII
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Warrior
Complete Champion
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Complete Psionics
Heroes of Battle
Heroes of Horror
Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the Wild
Frostburn
Sandstorm
Stormwrack
Cityscape
Dungeonscape
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Draconomicon
Libris Mortis
Lords of Madness
Unearthed Arcana
Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
Tome of Magic
Weapons of Legacy
Dragon Magic
Magic of Incarnum
Monster Manual I
Monster Manual II
Monster Manual III
Monster Manual IV
Monster Manual V
Fiendish Codex I
Fiendish Codex II
Elder Evils
DMG
DMG II
Miniatures Handbook
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
Rules Compendium

---

That's 47 hardbound books. While Paizo has definitely put out a lot of Adventure Paths and even Player's Companions, let's compare the number of PRD Books, adding in the books that're yet to be released:

Core Book
Advanced Player's Guide
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Magic
Advanced Race Guide
Advanced Class Guide
Ultimate Equipment
Ultimate Campaign
Gamemastery Guide
NPC Codex
Monster Codex
Bestiary 1
Bestiary 2
Bestiary 3
Bestiary 4
Pathfinder Unchained
Mythic Adventures
Technology Guide
Occult Adventures

---

That's 19 books that form the backbone of Pathfinder's rules, and the Technology Guide isn't even a hardbound book - it's a 64-page booklet that's no different than any other Player's Companion (though it's PRD-legal).

Of the hardbound books specific to Golarion:

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting
Inner Sea World Guide
Inner Sea Gods
Inner Sea Races

---

Everything else are 64-page Campaign Settings books, 32-page Players Companions booklets, 97-page Adventure Paths, or 64-page Modules.

So, taking even the Golarion hardbounds into account, that's 21 hardbound books and 1 booklet, or 22 books.

That's STILL under HALF the amount of stuff that Wizards put out for 3.5 And Pathfinder gets just about as much, if not more, done with those books than Wizards did with 47.

Oh, and need I forget to mention that a whopping SIX of these PRD books are books meant particularly for players (maybe 7 when Occult Adventures comes out). 1 of these books (Ultimate Equipment) is equal parts for players and the DM. 6 of these books are "enemy" books (the Bestiaries and Codex). 2 of these books are specifically for the DM (Ultimate Campaign and GameMastery Guide). And the remaining 3 are books for variants rules (Technology Guide, Pathfinder Unchained, and Mythic Adventures).

If you want to call 19 books in 5 years "bloat," then fine. But realize that, compared to WOTC, that is NOTHING. It's literally 41% of the number of hardbound books Wizards Printed out, and that's not even counting the Campaign-specific books of 3.5.

Yes, there are TONS of Player's Companions - 54 with 4 already announced for 2015 - but those are all 32-page booklets, are completely optional, and all build on material in the PRD.

Emphasis on the OPTIONAL.

Not ONE of these Player' Companions NEEDS to be used, and not one introduces classes not found in the PRD. You don't NEED to pick up "Player's Companion X" in order to play a Hunter, or Witch, or anything else. They have options for those and other classes, but the basis of everything is in the PRD.

This is completely the opposite of 3.5, which had 11 Base Classes in the SRD, yet had a grand total of 50 Classes in 3.5 and over 150 Prestige Classes, most of which REQUIRED you to buy supplemental books to use, and most of these supplements really WERE just "classes, prestige classes, spells, items, and feats", and added no rules variants or expanded on basic concepts (unlike the APG, UC, UM, and ARG, which all added basic rules like Racial Favored Class Abilities, Traits, Archetypes, Alternate Racial Traits, etc.).

This would be the same as if Paizo released the 8 Base classes and 10 Hybrid Classes as non-PRD, Player's Companion-specific material.

Instead, Companions act as supplementary materials that players and DMs CAN pick up at their FLGS, but in no way NEED to in order to play the 29/32 Base Classes of Pathfinder.

19 books and lots of extremely-optional supplementary material, vs. 47 books, many of which you needed to buy just to play 1 or 2 classes featured in those hardbound books.

Yeah, I think I'll stick with Pathfinder and not whine about "bloat."


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You're missing Drow of the Underdark.

I f$!~ing loved drow of the udnerdark.


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Races of Eberron too which was a 'genericing' of Eberron.

What has that book about evil characters/npcs? It had the feat that allowed you to basically spontaneously cast any spell you had spell mastery for and quick load from your book.

Shadow Lodge

Ivan Rûski wrote:
With every new hardcover that comes out, at least one character from my group is able to be redone to closer match their players' original vision. So if anything the focus of my games is becoming clearer with more options, not more muddied.

If you have to buy a dozen-odd books to even come close to playing the character you wanted to play in the first place, you may be playing Pathfinder.


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Jewelfox wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:
With every new hardcover that comes out, at least one character from my group is able to be redone to closer match their players' original vision. So if anything the focus of my games is becoming clearer with more options, not more muddied.
If you have to buy a dozen-odd books to even come close to playing the character you wanted to play in the first place, you may be playing Pathfinder.

Or literally every other RPG with an emphasis on crunch.


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Oh, I should probably also add that the total Pagecount for the Player's Companions are (calculating for 58, so the 4 upcoming releases are added in):

1856.

The total pagecount of the Campaign Setting booklets published since Pathfinder RPG launched in August 2009, not including Map Folios:

3392

Combined with the PRD books, and Golarion books, that's:

11,998

That's a lot.

Except, yeah, no, it really isn't.

Pagecount for the "PHB" series: 526
Pagecount for the "Complete" series: 1248
Pagecount for the "Psionics" series: 384
Pagecount for the "Heroes" series: 320
Pagecount for the "Races" series: 736
Pagecount for the "Environment" series: 1184 (including Planar Handbook, which I missed at first)
Pagecount for the "Book of" series: 1078
Pagecount for Unearthed Arcana: 224
Pagecount for the "Tome of" series: 448
Pagecount for Weapons of Legacy: 224
Pagecount for Dragon Magic: 160
Pagecount for Magic of Incarnum: 224
Pagecount for the "DMG" series: 608
Pagecount for Miniatures Handbook: 192
Pagecount for the "Compendium" series: 864 (Including Dragon Compendium, which was missed)
Pagecount for the "MM" series: 1215
Pagecount for the "Fiendish Codex" series: 320
Pagecount for Elder Evils: 160

TOTAL PAGECOUNT: 9924

So, yes, the pagecount for Pathfinder is greater than that of 3.5.

Except, that's ALL of the rules materials for Pathfinder, including all of the non-PRD stuff, meaning meant for Golarion.

Let's see what happens when we put in the Campaign-specific books from 3.5 (Player's Guide to Faerun, Underdark, Lost Empires of Faerun, Drow of the Underdark, Eberron Campaign Setting, Races of Eberron, Ghostwalk):

11460

---

So, let's see about this then:

Pathfinder (23 hardbound books, 58 32-page Player's Companions, and 53 64-page Campaign Setting booklets): 11,998

D&D 3.5 (49 "geryhawk" books, 7 Campaign-Setting-based books): 11,460

While Pathfinder still has 538 more pages of "rules" materials than the total of 3.5 (and I may actually be UNDER-estimating the total pagecount of 3.5, whereas I know I'm not with PF), the fact that the overwhelming majority of these pages are from Player's Companion booklets and Campaign Setting booklets should give you a hint of just how much Paizo puts into small-scale optional rules meant for specific settings and campaigns, rather than just dumping out gigantic books of rules left and right like WOTC did.

D&D 3.5 had Bloat.

Pathfinder has consistent, small, optional product output, with a big product at regular intervals.

Whining about Pathfinder having "Bloat" is like crying about getting the wrong color iPhone.


TarkXT wrote:
Jewelfox wrote:
Ivan Rûski wrote:
With every new hardcover that comes out, at least one character from my group is able to be redone to closer match their players' original vision. So if anything the focus of my games is becoming clearer with more options, not more muddied.
If you have to buy a dozen-odd books to even come close to playing the character you wanted to play in the first place, you may be playing Pathfinder.
Or literally every other RPG with an emphasis on crunch.

Yeah, that's basically every RPG... scratch that... basically every GAME out there.

Do people think that 2nd Ed was this magical super-system that DIDN'T have books out the wazoo?

Or that there weren't a metric TON of booklets featuring new classes, options, gear, spells, etc. in 1st Edition?

Pathfinder didn't appear and magically cause players to want to use several books to build a character - that's what happens when you have an RPG that's built around stat'ing out characters.

Hell, if ANYTHING, Pathfinder is leagues better than 3.5

You "need" a book?

What are you smoking - the PRD is free, in it's textual entirety, online.

You don't need to purchase ANYTHING from the PRD to play a character.

And with d20pfsrd, you don't NEED to buy even the Player's Companions or Campaign Settings books.

You SHOULD - that's what keeps Paizo going, and even though I suggest the PRD as a free thing, I actually own all 14 of the books my group regularly uses because I LIKE having physical books around (others own their own copies of books, but since I like to DM, I like to have all the typical rules we use on hand).

With 3.5, you absolutely did. You NEED to buy all those Complete Books or myriad other books in order to play any classes beyond the Core 11, because the SRD is ONLY the PHB, DMG, and MM (no-one in the right mind would allow anyone to use the XPH, let's be honest here).

And you HAVE to do this because Wizards killed D&D Tools. They killed a site because they were posting material that WOTC abandoned 6 years ago and hasn't printed since.

YES, that material IS copyrighted - but realize that EVERY. SINGLE. BOOK. from 3.5 hasn't been in print since 2008. Wizards stopped distributing 3.5 because the GLORIOUS 4E was there and 3.5 was dead.

Wizards killing D&D Tools was just a douche move - it wasn't hurting their sales; THEY were hurting their own sales by peeing money away on a system that very few liked, stopping print on a system that people DID like and was just reaching maturity, and so caused many people to jump ship and stick with the guys who made the best stuff for 3.5 and their shiny new system which was a tuned-up 3.5.

Is Pathfinder perfect? No; there is no perfect game system of any kind.

Is Pathfinder better, more well-manged, and well-regulated than 3.5 ever was? Yes.

And complaining about things like "well, you NEED X numbers of sources to be good, so forget Pathfinder!" is like complaining about the Phillies because their pitchers throw fastballs.

It's just the nature of the genre.


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there actually is an RPG that isn't loaded to the Brim with rulebooks, it is called Savage Worlds, you only need one rulebook to run it, unless you want the setting book for the fluff and repricings of gear, or want the companions, which are loaded with nothing but genre specific rules reskins you could have found in the settings or made yourself via substitutions

Shadow Lodge

chbgraphicarts wrote:

You don't need to purchase ANYTHING from the PRD to play a character.

And with d20pfsrd, you don't NEED to buy even the Player's Companions or Campaign Settings books.

You do need to buy them in at least PDF form, if you want to play your character in Pathfinder Society. Even though modern Player's Companions have a big, legible notice right on page 1 that says you can find the rules you need to use everything in them in the PRD, with no mention of whether or not that will fly with your PFS GM.

Either way, most books have at best only a handful of options which complement a given campaign or character build. But at the same time, most Pathfinder hardcover books have at least one option which does, which was the point of the original quote:

Ivan Rûski wrote:
With every new hardcover that comes out, at least one character from my group is able to be redone to closer match their players' original vision.

I'm not comparing Pathfinder to any other game here, "crunch-centred" or otherwise. I'm saying that buying, or at least reading, roughly 100x more pages than you actually need, is a feature of Pathfinder, for better or worse.

I think it's worth acknowledging this fact. I also think it's worth considering if there are other ways to get our gaming on, for less of an investment of time and money. Paizo's done a lot of things I like, but unless they are signing my paycheck I don't have to identify with them and worry about where their money's coming from.


chbgraphicarts wrote:


Let's see what happens when we put in the Campaign-specific books from 3.5 (Player's Guide to Faerun, Underdark, Lost Empires of Faerun, Drow of the Underdark, Eberron Campaign Setting, Races of Eberron, Ghostwalk):

11460

Just a thought, since you include the Golarion campaign specific books, did you include ALL of the FR specific books?

There's a LOT of Regional books and other items (I'm thinking if you include all the FR books I imagine you'll at least have near 2000+ pages right there if not more).

I got as many as I could afford at the time, but still don't have all of them so I couldn't give you an accurate count.


GreyWolfLord wrote:
chbgraphicarts wrote:


Let's see what happens when we put in the Campaign-specific books from 3.5 (Player's Guide to Faerun, Underdark, Lost Empires of Faerun, Drow of the Underdark, Eberron Campaign Setting, Races of Eberron, Ghostwalk):

11460

Just a thought, since you include the Golarion campaign specific books, did you include ALL of the FR specific books?

There's a LOT of Regional books and other items (I'm thinking if you include all the FR books I imagine you'll at least have near 2000+ pages right there if not more).

I got as many as I could afford at the time, but still don't have all of them so I couldn't give you an accurate count.

Well, most of the FR books were 3.0. FR was kinda dropped like a burning rock once 3.5 came around, as were all the settings barring Eberron, and even that didn't get much love, either. Greyhawk "got" the most by view of being the "default" setting, and thus all "generic" D&D books were by definition Greyhawk books.

Since 3.5 was around for 5 years, and PF has been around for 5, I thought it a better comparison to show output vs output over a 5-year span.

So, no, I didn't include the vast majority of FR books. I also don't honestly know just how many there really are, since my playgroup never used any of the Faerun books (we knew OF them, at least the 3.5 ones, and one of our friends is a HUGE FR fan per the novels, but we never bought or used any).

Silver Crusade Contributor

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Without even going through and reviewing, you're missing a ton of campaign-specific 3.5 books. Serpent Kingdoms, Champions of Ruin/Purity, Dragons of Faerun, Dragonmarked, and more. I don't think I saw Exemplars of Evil up there either. Are you counting modules? What about Dragon Magazine, which is technically a 3.5 product? (If we're getting extremely technical, the first 4 Adventure Paths set in Golarion are actually 3.5 material as well, albeit third-party.)

Shadow Lodge

chbgraphicarts wrote:
Jewelfox wrote:
I'm not comparing Pathfinder to any other game here, "crunch-centred" or otherwise. I'm saying that buying, or at least reading, roughly 100x more pages than you actually need, is a feature of Pathfinder, for better or worse.
And here is when I fear for the future of our species.

Speak for your own species, Frost Giant. :P

I personally love having tons of choice. That's why I keep getting frustrated trying to design characters for Pathfinder. I have to read forum guides to figure out which of the 1000+ options are relevant. Only to find out that the character I want to play is the equivalent of an Animate Rope spell, and I should be playing something else if I don't want to die. Especially in Pathfinder Society, where not only does it cost money, but they also don't pull their punches as often, and there's more of a burden on players to optimize characters.

Then I find out there's awesome third-party content that does exactly what I need. But it's not anywhere online that I can link my GM to it, and she's skeptical of third-party stuff by default (when she didn't buy it herself) because she's still not done reading through the ACG yet, and she thinks half of the PRD looks munchkin-y anyway.

The problem isn't volume of choice. It's the difficulty in finding the right choices for your character, and then having to either pay for or negotiate the right to use them, and that everyone takes it for granted that this is just How An RPG Works.

Fate Core System players design their own stuff as a group, every day, and their game's made it into a fun collaborative process. Meanwhile, Paizo sells flash cards to help people not forget the rules, and they're about to start selling a strategy guide to teach newbs how not to make characters that suck. Is it just me, or is this a product that shouldn't have to exist?


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chbgraphicarts wrote:
memorax wrote:
The promising of trying to keep bloat and releasing new rules should have never been made imo.

I've been over this before, and what I pointed out was that Wizards put out, in the five years that 3.5 existed, the following books for Greyhawk/generic D&D:

PHB
PHBII
Complete Adventurer
Complete Arcane
Complete Divine
Complete Warrior
Complete Champion
Complete Mage
Complete Scoundrel
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Complete Psionics
Heroes of Battle
Heroes of Horror
Races of Destiny
Races of the Dragon
Races of Stone
Races of the Wild
Frostburn
Sandstorm
Stormwrack
Cityscape
Dungeonscape
Book of Exalted Deeds
Book of Vile Darkness
Draconomicon
Libris Mortis
Lords of Madness
Unearthed Arcana
Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
Tome of Magic
Weapons of Legacy
Dragon Magic
Magic of Incarnum
Monster Manual I
Monster Manual II
Monster Manual III
Monster Manual IV
Monster Manual V
Fiendish Codex I
Fiendish Codex II
Elder Evils
DMG
DMG II
Miniatures Handbook
Magic Item Compendium
Spell Compendium
Rules Compendium

---

That's 47 hardbound books. While Paizo has definitely put out a lot of Adventure Paths and even Player's Companions, let's compare the number of PRD Books, adding in the books that're yet to be released:

Core Book
Advanced Player's Guide
Ultimate Combat
Ultimate Magic
Advanced Race Guide
Advanced Class Guide
Ultimate Equipment
Ultimate Campaign
Gamemastery Guide
NPC Codex
Monster Codex
Bestiary 1
Bestiary 2
Bestiary 3
Bestiary 4
Pathfinder Unchained
Mythic Adventures
Technology Guide
Occult Adventures

---

That's 19 books that form the backbone of Pathfinder's rules, and the Technology Guide isn't even a hardbound book - it's a 64-page booklet that's no different than any other Player's Companion (though it's PRD-legal).

Of the hardbound books specific to Golarion:

Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting
Inner Sea World Guide
Inner Sea Gods
Inner Sea Races

---

Everything else are...

And then there are the Eberron and FR books. :)


Kalindlara wrote:
Champions of Ruin/Purity,

Psst. It's "Champsions of Ruin/Valor". I know because I make that mistake all the time, too, but CoV actually has one of my favorite Good spells of all time: Create Lantern Archon. Otherwise, carry on!


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Drumroll
FR Campaign Setting
Monsters of Faerun
Lords of Darkness
Champions of Ruin
Champions of Valor
Serpent Kingdoms (hi, Pun-pun!)
City of Splendors: Waterdeep
Power of Faerun
Dragons of Faerun
Shining South
Races of Faerun
Silver Marches
Magic of Faerun
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Unapproachable East
Faiths and Pantheons

Quick page count... 2,899. Quite a lot of which is fluff rather than crunch.


Chemlak wrote:
Quick page count... 2,899. Quite a lot of which is fluff rather than crunch.

Okay, so, bringing 3.5's pagecount up to...

14,359

Which is over 2000 MORE than PF's total amount.

So, yeah, once again, PF has a lot less stuff, excluding Adventure Paths and Modules (which usually don't add rules, and what they do add is usually a monster here and there).

---

I actually didn't realize there were this many FR things for 3.5

Either Millennium Games in Rochester didn't carry them, or I was blind to 'em, 'cause DANG did I not know there were that many.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
chbgraphicarts wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
Quick page count... 2,899. Quite a lot of which is fluff rather than crunch.

Okay, so, bringing 3.5's pagecount up to...

14,359

Which is over 2000 MORE than PF's total amount.

So, yeah, once again, PF has a lot less stuff, excluding Adventure Paths and Modules (which usually don't add rules, and what they do add is usually a monster here and there).

---

I actually didn't realize there were this many FR things for 3.5

Either Millennium Games in Rochester didn't carry them, or I was blind to 'em, 'cause DANG did I not know there were that many.

I had a really good gaming store in Swindon for the 3.0-3.5 years, and I was pretty obsessive about getting my hands on FR stuff. Also note, I purposefully didn't include adventures in that list. But yes, there was a LOT of FR material put out for 3.0.


chbgraphicarts wrote:
Chemlak wrote:
Quick page count... 2,899. Quite a lot of which is fluff rather than crunch.

Okay, so, bringing 3.5's pagecount up to...

14,359

Which is over 2000 MORE than PF's total amount.

So, yeah, once again, PF has a lot less stuff, excluding Adventure Paths and Modules (which usually don't add rules, and what they do add is usually a monster here and there).

---

I actually didn't realize there were this many FR things for 3.5

Either Millennium Games in Rochester didn't carry them, or I was blind to 'em, 'cause DANG did I not know there were that many.

3.5 rand for about 5 years IIRC. Pathfinder has been around for about 6 years. IIRC the CRB was released in August of 2008 so it will be 7 years this month, and unless I missed a post the Eberron page count is still not in, and WoTC had more crunch books coming out regularly than Paizo did.

I remember the high release rate because I was in the military, and two of the guys in the barracks snatched up everything that came out, so I got to read a new book every month. I am very sure I never went two months without reading something new, and I don't just mean new to me.


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the CRB was August 2009.

the BETA was released in 2008, so people have been playing with the updated classes since then.

I actually kinda wish the Cleric had kept the design it had in the Beta, but I guess it created some real backwards-compatibility problems.

I also kinda preferred the Rage Points model of the Barbarian, but eh, it ended up working out fine.


The shear volume of 3.5 Prestige Classes alone is mind-boggling.

Back when WOTC had a searchable list of those things, I think there were something like 200-300 Prestige Classes when all was said and done, and there were well over 1000 Feats.

Liberty's Edge

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I have no problems with new material. Nor think that having more options is a bad thing. So no need to tell me that PF is not as bad as 3.5 in that regard. I think some who either like buying books or can't say no to their gaming groups or quite frankly to themselves. Rather than blame themselves blame Paizo instead. As a way of deflecting responsability imo. One might as well blame Mcdonalds for forcing you to eat at their stores. When in reality it's because a person loves junk food. So it's easier to blame them then themselves.

When it's all said and done unless a gun is being held to your head by your players. Or as a person one has a mental disorder that forces one to keep buying more new material. It's really not a problem imo. As for the risk of new material being better or worse. It's been a risk since the first edition of D&D when they released new material beyond the core. Again don't want to run the risk of being unhappy with new material. Then repeat after me. You don't have to buy it.

I was dissapointed in the Monster Codex. I have no interest in the Strategy guide. I'm probably never going to buy both. Nor am I going to blame Paizo for running their business properly. By releasing those books and later books for those who want them. You think Paiso is the only rpg company that suffers from it. Not by a longshot imo.

That's why those who want new material will never find common ground with those who do not want it. We may not like the new material. We may complain about it. Yet were not telling Paizo to stop publishing it. Or depriving it from others who would be interested.

Only in rpgs. No one tells car companies to stop building new models. Nor appliance companies in better efficant version of say refrigerators. Apple people scoop up the new Iphones. Rpgs companies they cry foul indeed.


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I almost entirely agree with you memorax.

The only quibble I have is the part about people who don't want new material. I have seen that mentioned repeatedly in this thread.

Reading through here I've seen very few people saying they don't want the company to publish any new material. They want something different than what is being published.
* Updated/corrected versions of original material.
* Different material. Ex: More setting stuff rather than PC build stuff.
* Better quality of material. Ex: Rather than 5 books with editing errors, confusing wording, and/or poorly considered options - Put out only 2 books that have been more extensively edited, clearly worded, and/or more play testing.
* PF 2.0 (or maybe 1.5)

I sometimes find myself in that third category. I've found the last couple of books I purchased more than just a bit aggravating in some respects, simply because I can't tell what it was really meant to be. Wording it clearly wouldn't have been that difficult or taken significantly more words.
I would be more likely to purchase a book if I thought the quality was higher. As it is, I'm probably going to wait a good long while before purchasing something like the occult or familiar books. If there is just a pile of threads "Wait, how is this supposed to work? Did they mean this does or does not work with that? Well the fluff says yes, but the rules seem like no? Uhmm, doesn't this contradict itself? Sounds cool, but it just doesn't work as written?" I'm likely to not buy them to avoid the aggravation.

Then again, I am quite possibly not the primary target customer. I do not have an over riding need to won everything. Even though I can afford more, I tend to be fairly picky and discriminating. I spend a fair amount of time deciding where my dollars will go. I am very much not an impulse shopper.
If Paizo still has climbing sales, then I would have to say they are hitting their target customer pretty well. A successful business model is just that "successful" and should only be changed after very careful consideration.


The ONLY real complaint I have, is that they have everything tossed into the APs. So unless you want to do some heavy adapting on some of them, that's one reason you have to buy all the books. The more current the AP you get, the more likely they'll have references to EVERYTHING more often then not. (Everything means, all the rulebooks to a degree).

That gets annoying.

I still get the APs though, if you couldn't tell.

And I buy a ton of the rulebooks which are sitting on one of my bookshelves.

Other then that, no complaints, at all about their output.

I would prefer more hardbacks that were Golarion fluff though. That's only because I'm more a fluff type person.


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GreyWolfLord wrote:

The ONLY real complaint I have, is that they have everything tossed into the APs. So unless you want to do some heavy adapting on some of them, that's one reason you have to buy all the books. The more current the AP you get, the more likely they'll have references to EVERYTHING more often then not. (Everything means, all the rulebooks to a degree).

That gets annoying.

I still get the APs though, if you couldn't tell.(...)

I seem to recall someone stating that they typically restrict each AP to a handful (3-4?) of hardcover books so the GM won't need to bring his entire library wherever he's playing. Of course, two APs won't necessarily use the same handful of books...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kthulhu wrote:

I consider "I don't like it" to be a sufficient reason.

The GM puts a lot more time and effort into a game than the average player. his right to have fun is just as important as the player's. Yet it seems to be popular on these forums to imply that a GM who imposes any sort of limit is a horrible tyrant, and the players should all quit and walk out on him. But somehow if the GM quits, he's being a whiny crybaby who can't stand not having his own way. Nice double standard some of you are putting out there.

How dare you say that the GM has a more important role in the game than the almighty Player? That and your blasphemy against the rule of Player Entitlement!

This shall not stand! (and probably won't.)

Liberty's Edge

A person who takes on the role of DM does so knowing that a certain amount of work is going to be required. More so then a player. That being said I'm not going to treat a DM any different. One takes the job as a DM then one is accepting and willing to do more work then a player. At a table both player and dms are equals imo. If one thing that screams run away from a table is when a DM tries to make the players feel like crap. By making themselves out to be the next martyr saint. I have been on both sides of the screen. Each time I knew the amount of work needed. So no sympathy from me as a both a DM and player. Don't want to do the extra work needed. Or spend the extra money needed to buy more material. Then don't DM. N

I see the point about the APs and new material being included in them. Yet again with the online SRD it's not a really a issue. Between that and PF apps one really does not need to buy a physical book. It's only just recently that some at my table bought a core book. Relying exclusively on the SRD and Herolab. I think what bothers me being one of those who favor more material being released. Is that somehow one is forced to buy the new material. Unless your being threatened with bodily harm one is not forced to buy anything. I bought most of the Earthdawn 3E core. Not because I have too. I wanted to. I can respect and even understand and symapthize not wanting new material all the time. The whole "new material = being forced to buy it" simply is not true imo.


Kudaku wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:

The ONLY real complaint I have, is that they have everything tossed into the APs. So unless you want to do some heavy adapting on some of them, that's one reason you have to buy all the books. The more current the AP you get, the more likely they'll have references to EVERYTHING more often then not. (Everything means, all the rulebooks to a degree).

That gets annoying.

I still get the APs though, if you couldn't tell.(...)

I seem to recall someone stating that they typically restrict each AP to a handful (3-4?) of hardcover books so the GM won't need to bring his entire library wherever he's playing. Of course, two APs won't necessarily use the same handful of books...

I have been usually finding I have to rewrite any significant encounter anyway. Our groups are usually larger than 4 people, usually use 20 or 25 point buy, and have a lot more optimization skill than is expected for the AP's. So I can't run them as written anyway. Since I have to re-write, I can use whatever books I want.


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memorax wrote:

A person who takes on the role of DM does so knowing that a certain amount of work is going to be required. More so then a player. That being said I'm not going to treat a DM any different. One takes the job as a DM then one is accepting and willing to do more work then a player. At a table both player and dms are equals imo. If one thing that screams run away from a table is when a DM tries to make the players feel like crap. By making themselves out to be the next martyr saint. I have been on both sides of the screen. Each time I knew the amount of work needed. So no sympathy from me as a both a DM and player. Don't want to do the extra work needed. Or spend the extra money needed to buy more material. Then don't DM. N

I see the point about the APs and new material being included in them. Yet again with the online SRD it's not a really a issue. Between that and PF apps one really does not need to buy a physical book. It's only just recently that some at my table bought a core book. Relying exclusively on the SRD and Herolab. I think what bothers me being one of those who favor more material being released. Is that somehow one is forced to buy the new material. Unless your being threatened with bodily harm one is not forced to buy anything. I bought most of the Earthdawn 3E core. Not because I have too. I wanted to. I can respect and even understand and symapthize not wanting new material all the time. The whole "new material = being forced to buy it" simply is not true imo.

I love how somehow the wants and opinions of the players seem to be absolutely sacrosanct, where the ones of the DM should just immediately give way to whatever the player wants in any particular circumstance. Sorry. Part of the buy-in for me being GM is that I have some editorial control over the basic content the game again sorry if you don't like it but oh well someone else can always do the job. Only they never seem to want to.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

People seem to think that when someone says 'player' they are automatically excluding the DM from that group. Which is sometimes true, and sometimes not. DMs are players too.

Paizo Glitterati Robot

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Removed a few posts containing personal insults and starting to deliberately escalate the conversation. Just a gentle reminder that we're both: A) not OK with defaming other companies or publishers on our site, and B) sometimes this line of discussion skirts close to, and results in negative edition warring rhetoric. Let's keep this focused on Pathfinder please.

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