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I don't know about you guys, but I'm having trouble recognizing which thread I'm on. It's all just too much, really.
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So getting back to topic.
New material can be used and not given the table and desires of the DM. I don't see and will never see the big issue around that. Even way back as 2E I was a fan of the complete series of books. I bought them all. I never felt the need to use them all. Both as a a player and DM.
I'm did not buy the Monster Codex and chances are good I will not buy the strategy guide. My choosing not to buy either was not a difficult or hard process. Unless one is forced at gunpoint by someone no one is forced to buy let alone use every scrap of new or existing material. And yes it is that simple. Those making it out to be such a big issue simply don't want to spend money on or want new material. Which is fine I totally get that.
No one in any of the too much bloat threads has every explained how they are forced into using new material. Why Paizo doing what a proper and profitable rpg company should be doing is a bad thing. In my neck of the woods why have Tim Hortons. I like some donuts dislike others. I don't enter and complain about the fact that they have a good selection of donuts. Or that they keep making new flavors. As no one is forcing me or anyone else to try the new ones.
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Your straw men are good straw men but the people disagreeing with you have bad straw men - is that how it works? Or actually, the people that won't flagellate themselves while basically agreeing to the general handling of things if not exactly where the starting lines are drawn?
Right because you never used any straw men either. It's the pot calling the kettle black. I'm going back on topic. You want to continue go right ahead. If it's not about the topic of the thread i'm not going to respond back.
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Everybodies over here talking about bloat and I'm just like "I'll pay you right now for a time travel book."
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Am I wrong in seeing a correlation in this and Magic the Gathering? I mean look that system has changed a bunch and it's still going strong. Every new set introduces a new mechanic or "Rules" if you will. Its still magic its still fun. I never played for an ante card as they suggested in the beginning. I would love to play Plane Chase but no one does around here, in fact everyone here plays EDH a different version of the rules then I prefer.
Different cards have come and gone some were flops others underpowered many stuck and changed the game. Isn't that like whats happening here at Piazo?
I love Plane Chase as well! Everyone around here gets sad whenever I pull out the stack of planes cards, but I can occasionally force them to agree.
We played EDH with Planechase. Forget the haters.
Been a while though... :(
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Rule Minus-One: Everyone is playing to have fun. No one person's fun is more important than anyone else's fun. Nobody playing should behave in a manner which diminishes the fun of anyone else playing.
AKA: Wheaton's Law.
GMs should accept that their players might want things they aren't prepared for. Players should accept that GMs might not want to deal with things they aren't prepared for. Both sides should try to meet somewhere in the middle. It's not always possible to do so, and both sides should recognise when to suck it up, and when to walk away.
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rknop does a great job here of summarizing the majority of my concerns as a GM. Another thing I've had problems with is resources like the d20pfsrd and herolab make it very easy for some (more appropriately certain) players to accidentally (or "accidentally" on occasion) start grabbing feats, archetypes, and spells that aren't on the list of allowed source materials. So even if a GM does his homework ahead of time to lay out a list of allowable source materials, he may STILL be stuck policing character sheets on a regular basis. While I am not familiar with herolab, d20pfsrd at least lists the source material at the bottom of the page.
But even without all of the extra rules options, these are the kind of players you would have to police for cheating anyway. They just have an easier excuse now.
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It's not a victim statement. It's a critique of the idea represented.What idea? That flavorful choices shouldn't have awful mechanics just because they are flavorful?
You basically said Paizo publishes things you consider crappy feats on purpose. Other players may or may not consider them crappy feats, for flavor reasons.They do publish crappy feats. And archetypes. And spells. Most of those crappy options are not flavorful. And the ones that are flavorful shouldn't be crappy. In fact, none of them should be crappy.
And it is on purpose too. The text didn't magically type itself and then flew into the printer.
The way the game is set us, if you specialize (for mechanical or flavor reasons) you take a hit in other areas to make up for it. This is no different.Ah... And what area are you specializing? Flavor? Because I didn't mention any particular area. Again, why should flavor be punished with bad mechanics?
If I want Water Skinned because I like its flavor, why can't it be a good feat as well? It doesn't have to be Leadership or Craft Wondrous Items. It doesn't even have to be Power Attack... But it could be, you know, something that's actually useful in ways other than "Now i can pretend this feat is not completely useless and that the game is not punishing me for taking a flavorful option".
Or maybe they only suck in your, and certain other people's opinion, and whether something sucks is actually subjective.
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I don't understand.Isn't that just a chance to tell the story of how the last survivors perished and then continue the campaign as planned?The last six catfolk on Golarion enter a tavern.
The campaign then becomes:
STARSTONE II: Electric Boogaloo
Same. I'd watch it, though. I <3 catfolk.
And six is, what, five more than we've had thus far? I'm so in.
EDIT: So, really, the FIRST six catfolk on Golarion...
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Power of... bucket of water!
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Power of... bucket of water!
Man the Wonder Twins! :D
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Water Skinned is pretty blatantly less powerful than a cantrip or orison despite being a feat, one of the most limited resources in the game if you're not a fighter. By that metric, yes, it sucks.
Well, to be fair:
v.
It's (sort of?) more powerful than a 3rd-or-less level caster with an orison...
EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaactually, no, I was wrong.
Cauldron holds equal-to-or-less-than a bucket and still douses one square by itself, though it is twice the price (at 1 g v. 5 s).
So... yeah, just a first level guy with a 1 gold item can do about as much as the feat can. :/
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Because it's akin to the same kind of reasons players play. Players want to create their own characters, and DMs want to build their own worlds. Ususally both can accomodate each others desires quite nicely..... unless they come to these messageboards first.I never understood this as a GM. Why is the campaign that I want to run more important than the campaign that my players want to play in?Yeah, it's a golden plot hook, but it's one for some other campaign than the one you wanted to run.
Yeah, yeah, that's the GM being tyrannical and forcing his story down the player's throats, I know.
But isn't it really the players forcing the GM to accommodate them?
Sometimes you're just not interested in a game about the last catfolk. Maybe somebody else can run that game.
Woah there. You seem to be conflating your reasons for DMing with everyone else's reasons. I don't DM to "build my own worlds." I DM to play a game with my friends. I run for others, because people ran for me. I am paying it forward.
Water Skinned is pretty blatantly less powerful than a cantrip or orison despite being a feat, one of the most limited resources in the game if you're not a fighter. By that metric, yes, it sucks.Well, to be fair:
v.
It's (sort of?) more powerful than a 3rd-or-less level caster with an orison...
EDIT: Aaaaaaaaaactually, no, I was wrong.
Cauldron holds equal-to-or-less-than a bucket and still douses one square by itself, though it is twice the price (at 1 g v. 5 s).
So... yeah, just a first level guy with a 1 gold item can do about as much as the feat can. :/
The other way to look at this: this feat can be practically replicated for 501 gold.
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Not sure if my game's still recognizable. Last session my PCs entered the old ruins of the fallen skycity Eternity and are now in a process of trying to use the ancient city's transit systems to reach the interior where they hope to confront the marilith that has assumed control of the city, while dodging or defeating her legions of fiendspawn children/worshippers that she has bred and the countless security robots (including the Titan sentries with giant disintegration cannons mounted on them). They're not sure what to expect when they find the marilith, as all they know is she's been trapped within and has been filling buildings with her eggs in an attempt to breed an army to unleash when she escapes; though one of the PCs wants to try to assert her dominance and rally the marilith to her cause to usurp power from the demon queen that rules over the drow. The Paladin seems to enjoy getting to slice and dice fiends and androids all over the place with his divine artifact sword that contains the soul of his god though.
Now if they can just get the damn city back into the air...
I don't care about what is "official" or not.
When I GM, I allow the rules and mechanics that I like, and disallow those I don't. Period.
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I love options, options are great. They're also optional.
As for dealing with the "dm control freak vs. player entitlement" issue, I've found the easiest solution is behave like a mature, rational human being instead of a control-freak or an entitled jerk:
"That class/race doesn't exist in my homebrew, but next campaign I'll run Golorian and you can do it then."
"Not all options fit this story, but we'll see about next time."
"I don't know enough about that to allow it, but when I get some downtime I'll take a look, and see about incorporating it in the future"
"I have an idea for a cool character that won't fit this campaign, is there any chance we could play one where they would fit in the future?".
It's amazing what a little respect, explaining, and a willingness to not always have things exactly as you want can do.
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The issue never was about what a DM can or cannot allow at the table. It's that somehow people interested in a rpg. Are somehow either forced at gunpoint to buy the new material. As well as being forced to use the new material in their games. Which is not the case. Simply not using the material or even buying it is the solution. A imppossible solution to the Bloat crowd
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Again there is a difference. How does being accused of being " control freak railroading GM if you don't allow everything". Have to do with Paizo releasing new material. I like buy new books as I'm something of a completist at heart. When I'm a player I'm not going to assume that every DM will allow me to take anything and everything that I want. Same thing when as a DM I'm free to allow or disallow what is in the books as well. As long as both parties are respectful in the process.
I keep hearing drawbacks. What drawbacks exactly. Fans of the game want new material some do not. Those that do are free to keep buying. Those that are against are in no way shape or form forced to do. I like junk food. I have eaten every single product at my nearest Mcdonald. Not all at once and over a period of many years. I never felt the urge to sample the entire menu at once simply because they offered it while adding new items to the menu.
What's a extremely very minor problem is being made out to be a huge issue and to be blunt quite frankly it's not. I bought many books from 2E D&D. I never felt the urge nor was ever forced to use them all.
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There are drawbacks, but it the drawback is not on Paizo's side. The drawback is between the GM and his friends who keep buying books even though they know the GM does not like to allow everything. Then they get upset when he does not want to allow the latest book. The GM then blames Paizo as if it is their fault that his friends keep buying books.
It would be like if some kid is living with his parents, and they don't want any pets so the kid buys a pet from the local pet store anyway. Then he tells the parents "but I already bought it", when he already knew from previous discussions how the parent would likely react.
So the parents are now blaming the local pet store.
I understand how such things can cause tension in a group, but people need to realize when something is a "my group" problem, and not a "Paizo/Pathfinder" problem.
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Exactly it's not a Paizo problem. They are a business. Which is to sell new product to make more money to pay their bills. So why blame them. I can see it being the fault of a player who when told by a DM "core and only core". Keeps buying new material and tries to get a dM to use it. I like buying rpg sourcebooks. I try not to force any DM to use the new material. I may ask but never demand the material be used.
Please let's be honest a DM having to refuse a player requests for allowing new material while annoying. Is simply not that big of a thing. I'm a DM I barely break a sweat whenever a player asks to include a new class from a book. I can refuse or allow it.
I don't have the ACG, i probably won't get it (still never say never) however if someone brings one and want to rock a class or feat or spell why should i not allow it, i have 2 kids i say "No" to s$@@ entirely too much as it is:-p
if its found to be "overpowered" or maximized or whatever theres steps i can do to counter-act that and really good for them for finding something that works.
should i tell my party member he can't play an Android Diviner even though it turns out an Android Diviner is pretty f&*%ing boss:-)
Exactly it's not a Paizo problem. They are a business. Which is to sell new product to make more money to pay their bills. So why blame them. I can see it being the fault of a player who when told by a DM "core and only core". Keeps buying new material and tries to get a dM to use it. I like buying rpg sourcebooks. I try not to force any DM to use the new material. I may ask but never demand the material be used.
Please let's be honest a DM having to refuse a player requests for allowing new material while annoying. Is simply not that big of a thing. I'm a DM I barely break a sweat whenever a player asks to include a new class from a book. I can refuse or allow it.
From earlier comments, and I honestly don't remember if it was this thread or another bloat thread it seems to cause a lot of friction, and it causes more friction every time in some groups. Someone even said saying "no" will cause problems with their friendship so to some it is a big deal. However the blame is still rightfully not on Paizo. The friend needs to respect the fact that the GM is still the one running the game,....
I won't go into a list of other problems with this that have nothing to do with Paizo.
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If all it takes to ruin a friendship is a DM politely and respectfully saying no. Or a player who does the same while asking to use material from another product other than core. Then quite frankly that type of person is simply not worth being a friend of imo. Now if the DM/player is being rude it's one thing. Simply asking or refusing for something and it causes friction or a falling out. No thanks I don't need such toxic and immature people in my life. EVen if it means no longer playing any rpgs. Life is too short.
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I would tend to say that if ahead of time in the campaign blurb you listed something as excluded, you more or less DID already politely say no, no?
In this case I'm assuming that nothing was said ahead of time by either the DM. If a DM says no Gunslingers no exceptions then a player asks for one. It's the player being a bit of a dick and ignoring the DM restrictions. If no restrictions or exceptions are given. With friction or a falling out happening simply because of asking the DM to play a Gunslinger then it's the DM being a bit of a dick. Mind you it's all in how both parties behave. If both sides are respectful and polite and a friction or a falling out still happens. Then either one or the other or both are simply not meant to play rpgs together or maybe even be friends. If one side or both are equally rude and disrespectful to each other then nothing will save that relationship. Both at the gaming table and probably away from it.
I have been using the books on the PRD and nothing else for like three years. In that time we got essentially one new book. I might argue that it was rather silly and superfluous, but I'm certainly not worried about "bloat". Even back in 3.5 the books available to any given campaign were usually limited. Sometimes to Core, sometimes to a selection including the "Complete" series. With all the ton of books released, there was not a time that my gaming groups got worried about bloat.
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I have been using the books on the PRD and nothing else for like three years. In that time we got essentially one new book. I might argue that it was rather silly and superfluous, but I'm certainly not worried about "bloat". Even back in 3.5 the books available to any given campaign were usually limited. Sometimes to Core, sometimes to a selection including the "Complete" series. With all the ton of books released, there was not a time that my gaming groups got worried about bloat.
My group is/was "Greyhawk books only." This still meant that we had the PHB, PHBII, Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, the Complete Series, the "environment" series books (Stormwrack, Sandstorm, Frostburn, Cityscape), the Races series, etc.
Which means that we used a large number of books, and by "large" I mean WAY more than the PRD - about 30 in total.
The fact that the PRD is all of 16 books and covers just about as much as all those Greyhawk books did (and more concisely) is hilarious - that's a lot of content for just 16 books, only 6 of those books are primarily geared towards players, and those 6 give tons of options for 32 classes, plus lots and lots of Races (compared to 3.5, where the Complete Series ALONE is 7 books excluding Complete Psionic, and the entire Races series covered fewer possible Races than the Advanced Race Guide alone does).
3.5 was padded with filler in their books; Pathfinder definitely gives you a LOT more bang for your buck.
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"my GM is mean"
Hey! Your GM's over-all size (or his rough average according to a specific form of calculation) has NOTHING to do with it!
*huffs away and sulks 'cause he's short, and is really more of a 'mode' anyway*