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I feel like people are reading extra "meanness" into the assertion that classes that aren't great in non-Core still aren't great in Core. Anything in non-Core is going to be stronger than its Core equivalent due to extra options, especially "low tier" classes.
That being said these classes aren't going to be any less fun to play as long as they're working well enough to keep yourself and everyone at the table happy. If a few adventures have a run of elementals, incorporeal undead, etc. and the Rogue player is feeling down about it there's not much to be done in Core. If there's a plethora of high-AC enemies and the monk has difficulties landing a blow, or enemies with non-bypassable DR, that's unfortunate but can't be worked around nearly as well in Core.
One thing I'll note is there's no issues with changing styles as you level. Core Campaign supports retraining. I'm playing a Sword 'n Board Fighter for a change of pace at low levels, where his additional AC will be helpful and his lack of damage compared to a two-handed build isn't a big deal. When I get to higher levels, rather than bemoan the fact that I'm being shown up by the party Barbarian, I'm perfectly fine with dropping my shield and possibly retraining a feat or two.
If the character can see difficulties with their fighting style going forward, there's no shame in adapting to the situation. It isn't "giving in to power gaming" or anything harsh like that. I want to have fun at the table, and part of my fun is making sure I can contribute to the party and even go above and beyond in my role to help out if other characters at the table are struggling with a situation.
Using Nili as an example, whom I understand is a Monk focusing on UMD to use the Shillelagh spell, if I may:
Nili can also contribute well by continuing to max her UMD and purchasing a wide variety of scrolls. I see that Nili already has a few scrolls of Fireball; scrolls of other useful spells such as Lesser Restoration would be great, with the expectation that a "real" spellcaster in the party will be able to use these scrolls more effectively much of the time. My Fighter in non-Core keeps a lot of scrolls on hand to hand out to the party spellcasters, letting them relax a bit and prepare other spells they might want to cast without leaving the party vulnerable.
Nili, like a Druid, is a prime contender for spending extra WBL on items that will enhance the power of the party, due to many items that can be a money sink for traditional characters (such as magic armor) being unneeded due to her monk abilities. Since she is using weapon(s) rather than her fists, this frees up a lot of WBL that would've otherwise been spent upgrading an Amulet of Mighty Fists, which is great for the party.
Make sense?
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Also to note I think Nili looks like a great character! She has a unique fighting style (difficult to pull off in Core) and personality, well-distributed statistics (even going so far as to dump CHA, which powers only UMD, in favor of a better point buy, and offsetting this choice with her racial bonus feat), and useful feat choices from her admittedly shallow pool of choices.
But if she wasn't so well-built, the difficulties her class can face would be much more apparent and much sooner.
Nili is capable of dealing 2d6+7 damage on a single hit, or up to 4d6+10 damage in a round. That's damage that'll carve right through low-level enemies even if they do have small DR.
An equivalent monk of her level with 16 STR (to support a more MAD point buy), using his fists, could be dealing 1d8+3 damage. That's... pretty bad at level 4, even with the chance to potentially do it twice a round.
Nili is dealing up to 14 average damage on a single blow, or 24 damage on two successful hits. The second Core monk is dealing 7.5 damage on a single blow, or 15 damage on two successful hits. That's a HUGE disparity, with just a couple small differences in their build choices.
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One thing I'll note is there's no issues with changing styles as you level. Core Campaign supports retraining. I'm playing a Sword 'n Board Fighter for a change of pace at low levels, where his additional AC will be helpful and his lack of damage compared to a two-handed build isn't a big deal. When I get to higher levels, rather than bemoan the fact that I'm being shown up by the party Barbarian, I'm perfectly fine with dropping my shield and possibly retraining a feat or two.
retraining rules after level 1 are from Ultimate Campaign, is that legal in core?
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They stated in the blog post for Core that retraining was allowed as long as it was only retraining Core options.
So no retraining into a level of a class that is opened up to you via a boon, for example, from what I understand; but retraining Dodge to Combat Reflexes is totally kosher.
cool, I missed that. good to know!
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Yep, it's rad. I love retraining, especially in Core where there are less vanities to be had and more of an incentive to try new things out or retrain old feats that lose their luster at higher levels.
That being said, don't forget you can spend prestige on wands, scrolls, and potions, people! It's even more of a good idea to pay it forward from your successful adventures and invest that prestige in potions of Fly, or Gaseous Form, or scrolls of Glitterdust or Lesser Restoration.
Heck, there are a ton of adventures where the level 7 Sorcerer having a Scroll of Dimension Door available could drastically alter the conclusion of a 7-11 or 5-9. And now he doesn't have his dream of owning his own personal island distracting him from this expenditure.
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Back on topic, the one thing I'll be glad to not see in Core games is from behind the GM screen-- people using content that they don't own. Specifically, people using content sourced from the d20pfsrd, wherein they don't even have the name of the feat or feature correct.
I'm pretty knowledgable about random Pathfinder feats and features by this point, since I've been playing for awhile and I tend to "study up" on any game system I'm interested in. So it's even more painful to hear someone describe their "Bloodmage" or "Bleeding Strike" because that's what Bloatmage and Belier's Bite are called on the d20pfsrd.
I don't want to have to stop the game to audit you, or take away your cool magic powers in the middle of an adventure, but if someone clearly doesn't have the resource it forces my hand.
In Core the only thing I'll have to worry about is people getting confused as to what they are or are not allowed to summon or wildshape into I suspect; or using a feat or feature that clearly isn't Core, which will hopefully be a bit less likely but could easily come up with traits or certain "common" feats.
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I feel like people are reading extra "meanness" into the assertion that classes that aren't great in non-Core still aren't great in Core. Anything in non-Core is going to be stronger than its Core equivalent due to extra options, especially "low tier" classes.
Well actually...
If you think monks are screwed but rogues are useful I've got bad news for you. Monks are the 3rd worst class in core after fighter, rogue. The sole reason they are above rogues and fighters is their save's mean they're less likely to die.
When it comes to core you've got three types of classes
The Carries: Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Cleric(Not healing)
The Team Players: Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger/Bard
The "Carry Me's": Fighter/Monk/RogueThe carries can highhandedly carry an adventure, the team players can work together to solve more or less anything that's within 2-3 CR's of them but will struggle/die against +4's, however the carry me's are characters which show up and barely do anything.
Showing up and disabling the 1d6-2d6 pit trap saves 1 wand charge or .08 PP. The damage from the rogue is demonstrably poor. The fighter might actually carry an adventure or two until he fails a will save and total party kill's the group. The monk will show up, try really hard and do OK when he get's a full attack but otherwise feel left out.
I think I am reading the exact amount of "meanness" present in this thread.
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You can play whatever you want as long as it is legal and as long as you, as a player, don't tell other players, myself included, that our characters are inferior. Which is precisely what this discussion has done so far. When you make a blanket statement about multiple classes and how mechanically inferior they are, then go on to elaborate that those classes are going to show up and not contribute to the party, I am going to disagree. My personal experience contradicts your assertions.
Instead of beating the corpse of this horse even more, we should all just go out and play the game, with whatever classes we want. And we shouldn't get blasted for our decisions.
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You can play whatever you want as long as it is legal and as long as you, as a player, don't tell other players, myself included, that our characters are inferior. Which is precisely what this discussion has done so far. When you make a blanket statement about multiple classes and how mechanically inferior they are, then go on to elaborate that those classes are going to show up and not contribute to the party, I am going to disagree. My personal experience contradicts your assertions.
Instead of beating the corpse of this horse even more, we should all just go out and play the game, with whatever classes we want. And we shouldn't get blasted for our decisions.
So people aren't allowed to have opinions on the power levels of the different classes? Shouldn't people be able to share their opinions on a message board without getting blasted for their decisions?
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