"Slashing Grace" question


Rules Questions


Slashing Grace

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon.

Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

The description is fine as is, considering "weapon finesse" requires a "light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain...", this seems like a very odd feat.

Unless you SPECIFICALLY only use this feat for a slashing light weapon or the curve blade you either get to use weapon finesse, or slashing grace exclusively.

For example:

Longsword uses STR for hit, but DEX for damage

OR

Rapier uses DEX for hit, but doesn't qualify for the feat because it's already piercing (wha...?)

It just seems very counter-intuitive to me.


It was made to specifically work well with the Swashbuckler's class ability, Swashbuckler Finesse:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

For other classes, it's just sort of a bonus thing if you want to get it to work for normal finessable weapons.


It's meant to be used with the Swashbuckler. That class gets a modified Weapon Finesse that applies to all one-handed piercing weapons. With the line about treating the Slashing Grace weapon as a one-handed piercing weapon, one can get Dex-to-Hit/Damage with a pretty significant percentage of weapons in game.

Beyond that it works with the whip and Dueling Sword for other characters. It does not work with light slashing weapons, as Slashing Grace specifies "one handed"

Rapiers get a different feat instead; Fencing Grace.


Yeah, the answer is you require a level in wither Swashbuckler or Daringt Champion cavalier, which then allows you to finesse weapons that aren't normally allowed by weapon finesse.

Fencing Grace hasn't been officially released yet, but the Devs realized they'd messed up when the iconic swashbuckler weapon of a rapier couldn't get dex to damage (but was finesse-able) but you could make a axe finesse-able and get dex to damage by picking up slashing grace feat with the swashbuckler's finesse ability.

So they have told us that they intend to release a feat that is basically exactly the same as slashing grace, but specifically for the rapier that will be called fencing grace.


Claxon wrote:

Yeah, the answer is you require a level in wither Swashbuckler or Daringt Champion cavalier, which then allows you to finesse weapons that aren't normally allowed by weapon finesse.

Fencing Grace hasn't been officially released yet, but the Devs realized they'd messed up when the iconic swashbuckler weapon of a rapier couldn't get dex to damage (but was finesse-able) but you could make a axe finesse-able and get dex to damage by picking up slashing grace feat with the swashbuckler's finesse ability.

So they have told us that they intend to release a feat that is basically exactly the same as slashing grace, but specifically for the rapier that will be called fencing grace.

Fencing Grace has been released. It is in Advanced Class Origins.


Sadly I can use neither fencing grace nor agile weapon.. because it's not on the main prd site which is what most of my gm's use as a restriction xD
unrelated though


Which SRD?
Fencer's Grace on PFSRD

Because it is on that SRD


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The Cube of Rubix wrote:

Which SRD?

Fencer's Grace on PFSRD

Because it is on that SRD

d20PFSRD is a third party website with no relations to Paizo. The PRD is Paizo's own site, linked directly to the left of here, and only includes the non-Golarian specific hardcovers.


Very true it is, but I know a lot of people who use it, because it often lists what is third party and what is not. I am just saying it he needs to be able to reference the thing quickly it is on a website.


First of all, slashing grace does not work for light slashing weapons, you need one handed slashing weapons.
Secondly, why does it strike you as weird that a feat has prerequisites feats that don't really make sense? what about all those maneuver feats that require combat expertise? those don't make sense


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Nargemn wrote:

It was made to specifically work well with the Swashbuckler's class ability, Swashbuckler Finesse:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

For other classes, it's just sort of a bonus thing if you want to get it to work for normal finessable weapons.

For other classes, with the Rules as Written (including the "for all feats" part), it seems that Slashing Grace would enable them to use Weapon Finesse on any weapon qualifying for use with Slashing Grace, as long as it was the weapon chosen for Slashing Grace and the required Weapon Focus prerequisite feat.

Seems to me that much confusion and brokenness could have been avoided if, instead of Slashing Grace (and a separate Fencing Grace), they made the following feat:

Weapon Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon, using your superior agility instead of brute force to make it hurt.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon; weapon must be usable with Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: Choose one type of weapon that is usable with Weapon Finesse, and for which you have Weapon Focus. When wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse (see Special, below), you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Special: Wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse normally means that you must wield your weapon one-handed to use this feat with it; however, if a two-handed weapon (such as the Elven Curve Blade) is usable with Weapon Finesse, you can use this feat with it while using it two-handed. You can choose this feat more than once: Each time, it applies to a different weapon.

Paizo developers and everybody else: Feel totally free to use this if you want to Errata the Dex-to-Damage feats.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Nargemn wrote:

It was made to specifically work well with the Swashbuckler's class ability, Swashbuckler Finesse:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

For other classes, it's just sort of a bonus thing if you want to get it to work for normal finessable weapons.

For other classes, with the Rules as Written (including the "for all feats" part), it seems that Slashing Grace would enable them to use Weapon Finesse on any weapon qualifying for use with Slashing Grace, as long as it was the weapon chosen for Slashing Grace and the required Weapon Focus prerequisite feat.

How?

The feat doesn't mention weapon finesse or it's effects anywhere but the prerequisites.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Nargemn wrote:

It was made to specifically work well with the Swashbuckler's class ability, Swashbuckler Finesse:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

For other classes, it's just sort of a bonus thing if you want to get it to work for normal finessable weapons.

For other classes, with the Rules as Written (including the "for all feats" part), it seems that Slashing Grace would enable them to use Weapon Finesse on any weapon qualifying for use with Slashing Grace, as long as it was the weapon chosen for Slashing Grace and the required Weapon Focus prerequisite feat.

Seems to me that much confusion and brokenness could have been avoided if, instead of Slashing Grace (and a separate Fencing Grace), they made the following feat:

Weapon Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon, using your superior agility instead of brute force to make it hurt.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon; weapon must be usable with Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: Choose one type of weapon that is usable with Weapon Finesse, and for which you have Weapon Focus. When wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse (see Special, below), you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Special: Wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse normally means that you must wield your weapon one-handed to use this feat with it;...

That is pretty good actually, I am curious how a Two-Hander would work with Dex to damage, would it add 1.5 Dex?


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Nargemn wrote:

It was made to specifically work well with the Swashbuckler's class ability, Swashbuckler Finesse:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

For other classes, it's just sort of a bonus thing if you want to get it to work for normal finessable weapons.

For other classes, with the Rules as Written (including the "for all feats" part), it seems that Slashing Grace would enable them to use Weapon Finesse on any weapon qualifying for use with Slashing Grace, as long as it was the weapon chosen for Slashing Grace and the required Weapon Focus prerequisite feat.

Seems to me that much confusion and brokenness could have been avoided if, instead of Slashing Grace (and a separate Fencing Grace), they made the following feat:

Weapon Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon, using your superior agility instead of brute force to make it hurt.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon; weapon must be usable with Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: Choose one type of weapon that is usable with Weapon Finesse, and for which you have Weapon Focus. When wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse (see Special, below), you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Special: Wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse normally means that you must wield your weapon one-handed to use this feat with it;...

I don't like that as a replacement for Slashing grace. By by multiclassed Swashbuckler/Samurai.

In addition to sure, but I like some of the fun and flavorful things you can do with Slashing Grace.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Nargemn wrote:

It was made to specifically work well with the Swashbuckler's class ability, Swashbuckler Finesse:

At 1st level, a swashbuckler gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat with light or one-handed piercing melee weapons, and she can use her Charisma score in place of Intelligence as a prerequisite for combat feats. This ability counts as having the Weapon Finesse feat for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites.

For other classes, it's just sort of a bonus thing if you want to get it to work for normal finessable weapons.

For other classes, with the Rules as Written (including the "for all feats" part), it seems that Slashing Grace would enable them to use Weapon Finesse on any weapon qualifying for use with Slashing Grace, as long as it was the weapon chosen for Slashing Grace and the required Weapon Focus prerequisite feat.

Seems to me that much confusion and brokenness could have been avoided if, instead of Slashing Grace (and a separate Fencing Grace), they made the following feat:

Weapon Grace (Combat)

You can stab your enemies with your sword or another slashing weapon, using your superior agility instead of brute force to make it hurt.

Prerequisite(s): Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus with chosen weapon; weapon must be usable with Weapon Finesse.

Benefit: Choose one type of weapon that is usable with Weapon Finesse, and for which you have Weapon Focus. When wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse (see Special, below), you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

Special: Wielding your chosen weapon with Weapon Finesse normally means that you must wield your weapon one-handed to use this feat with it;...

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.


Claxon wrote:

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.

Yeah, you have to buy some effortless lace to use Piranha strike to a one handed weapon. So you can do it for a 2500gp tax.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.

Yeah, you have to buy some effortless lace to use Piranha strike to a one handed weapon. So you can do it for a 2500gp tax.

Minimum. Effortless Lace is somewhat fragile.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.

Yeah, you have to buy some effortless lace to use Piranha strike to a one handed weapon. So you can do it for a 2500gp tax.
Minimum. Effortless Lace is somewhat fragile.

*shrug* Only if you're in a game where the DM sunders a lot. Myself, I can't remember the last time I've seen one use that maneuver. I find most times that smart PC/enemies would rather KO/kill instead of damaging valuable loot. If the DM is destroying your stuff on a regular basis, the fact that you lose your lace too is low on your list of problems.


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Aldori Dueling Sword works for non-Swashbuckler Slashing Grace.


leo1925 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

For other classes, with the Rules as Written (including the "for all feats" part), it seems that Slashing Grace would enable them to use Weapon Finesse on any weapon qualifying for use with Slashing Grace, as long as it was the weapon chosen for Slashing Grace and the required Weapon Focus prerequisite feat.

How?

The feat doesn't mention weapon finesse or it's effects anywhere but the prerequisites.

Oops, read Weapon Finesse wrong. But this makes an even weirder problem, then -- with Slashing Grace, you can get Dex-to-Damage, but in many cases not Dex-to-Hit.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

For other classes, with the Rules as Written (including the "for all feats" part), it seems that Slashing Grace would enable them to use Weapon Finesse on any weapon qualifying for use with Slashing Grace, as long as it was the weapon chosen for Slashing Grace and the required Weapon Focus prerequisite feat.

How?

The feat doesn't mention weapon finesse or it's effects anywhere but the prerequisites.

Oops, read Weapon Finesse wrong. But this makes an even weirder problem, then -- with Slashing Grace, you can get Dex-to-Damage, but in many cases not Dex-to-Hit.

Ayup. But is that really much of a surprise? It was designed for a specific class, and works fine with that class. When you take it out of that class it gets weirder... but we have another feat (Fencing Grace) that will work fine for anybody who wants to achieve Dex to hit/damage via feats.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Aldori Dueling Swords, and Whips will get dex/dex with this feat, and no swashbuckler levels.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

graystone wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.

Yeah, you have to buy some effortless lace to use Piranha strike to a one handed weapon. So you can do it for a 2500gp tax.
Minimum. Effortless Lace is somewhat fragile.
*shrug* Only if you're in a game where the DM sunders a lot. Myself, I can't remember the last time I've seen one use that maneuver. I find most times that smart PC/enemies would rather KO/kill instead of damaging valuable loot. If the DM is destroying your stuff on a regular basis, the fact that you lose your lace too is low on your list of problems.

You don't need to destroy the weapon to destroy the lace--just giving it the broken condition will do that, and broken weapons can be repaired after the fight.

Nor is sunder the only way weapons get broken. For example, these guys show up in published adventures with some regularity.

Plus, dispel effects also destroy the lace.


graystone wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.

Yeah, you have to buy some effortless lace to use Piranha strike to a one handed weapon. So you can do it for a 2500gp tax.
Minimum. Effortless Lace is somewhat fragile.
*shrug* Only if you're in a game where the DM sunders a lot. Myself, I can't remember the last time I've seen one use that maneuver. I find most times that smart PC/enemies would rather KO/kill instead of damaging valuable loot. If the DM is destroying your stuff on a regular basis, the fact that you lose your lace too is low on your list of problems.

Honestly, as a GM I'm just not going to allow effortless lace.


Claxon wrote:
graystone wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.

Yeah, you have to buy some effortless lace to use Piranha strike to a one handed weapon. So you can do it for a 2500gp tax.
Minimum. Effortless Lace is somewhat fragile.
*shrug* Only if you're in a game where the DM sunders a lot. Myself, I can't remember the last time I've seen one use that maneuver. I find most times that smart PC/enemies would rather KO/kill instead of damaging valuable loot. If the DM is destroying your stuff on a regular basis, the fact that you lose your lace too is low on your list of problems.
Honestly, as a GM I'm just not going to allow effortless lace.

Can someone give me a link for this effortless lace?

Sovereign Court

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I'm not sure how glad I'd be if every tiny monster suddenly got Dex to damage on its natural attacks.

I think that the line in Slashing Grace restricting it to 1H weapons is useful.


Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:
graystone wrote:
Claxon wrote:

I think the problem here is that they designed slashing grace and fencing grace to specifically exclude light weapons.

Why? Because of Piranha Strike. They didn't want you to be able to go full dex and no strength and be able to pick up the extra scaling damage bonus on top too.

At least thats my take on it.

Yeah, you have to buy some effortless lace to use Piranha strike to a one handed weapon. So you can do it for a 2500gp tax.
Minimum. Effortless Lace is somewhat fragile.
*shrug* Only if you're in a game where the DM sunders a lot. Myself, I can't remember the last time I've seen one use that maneuver. I find most times that smart PC/enemies would rather KO/kill instead of damaging valuable loot. If the DM is destroying your stuff on a regular basis, the fact that you lose your lace too is low on your list of problems.

You don't need to destroy the weapon to destroy the lace--just giving it the broken condition will do that, and broken weapons can be repaired after the fight.

Nor is sunder the only way weapons get broken. For example, these guys show up in published adventures with some regularity.

Plus, dispel effects also destroy the lace.

I know how it works, it's just that with sunder you're attacking to destroy. You can't just deal less damage because you don't what it in pieces. That and those attacks to 'break' are doing NOTHING to the person attacking them. IMO most smart creatures want to dead/ko'd instead of still attacking you at a minus.

As to other ways to get rid of them, they aren't things that I run into. It'd been 1st edition since I ran into caryatid column and the fighting people are rarely the targets of random dispels. Your game may be different but the ones I've been it wouldn't have an issue keeping one.

To leo1925: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rtj2?PistolWhip-ability-does-it-work-with-Weap on#9


Thank you graystone.
I understand why they printed such an item (especially in the giantslaying book), and it really helps the small characters immensly but i think that this item will cause more trouble than help.


leo1925 wrote:

Thank you graystone.

I understand why they printed such an item (especially in the giantslaying book), and it really helps the small characters immensly but i think that this item will cause more trouble than help.

The author said it was made to help out two weapon fighters and dex people. It gets rid of a lot of the minuses you get and allows a much greater array of weapons usable with weapon finesse. If that's not something you want, you can be like Claxon and not use the item. For me, I love options and this makes more character concepts possible.


kestral287 wrote:
Ayup. But is that really much of a surprise? It was designed for a specific class, and works fine with that class. When you take it out of that class it gets weirder... but we have another feat (Fencing Grace) that will work fine for anybody who wants to achieve Dex to hit/damage via feats.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in these forums, you get other weird problems even with just that specific class. Rules as Written, Slashing Grace lets you get Dex-to-Damage (but not Dex-to-Hit) with an axe (as well as various other weapons that you wouldn't want in on Dex-to-Damage), but not on the iconic Swashbuckler weapon, the rapier (hence the need for an Errata(?) that introduced Fencing Grace afterwards).

What I proposed above (Weapon Grace) would avoid all of these problems by depending upon Weapon Finesse. If your class abilities (such as Swashbuckler's Finesse and modified variants thereof) modify Weapon Finesse to add and/or subtract weapons from Weapon Finesse, they automatically add and/or subtract the same weapons from Weapon Grace (although it might benefit from an extra sentence stating this explicitly). Problem solved.

By the way, Effortless Lace link (for some reason it is on Archives of Nethys but not d20pfsrd.com), originally from Giant Hunter's Handbook. Rules as Written, this seems to give you Dex-to-Hit for one-handed weapons, but not Dex-to-Damage (which Slashing Grace would give you), so it fixes part of the problems with Slashing Grace, but you shouldn't need a magic item to fix a bug in a feat.

Sovereign Court

UnArcaneElection: the problem with that is that it would also apply to natural attacks. And all tiny and smaller monsters get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, as well as major size bonuses to dexterity. So any 3HD tiny creature is suddenly hitting for really high damage.

And not just those; quite a few animal companions have fairly high Dexterity as well.


^This is a real problem, but seems easier to fix than the weird problems that Slashing Grace has (not saying it couldn't be done, but seems more complicated to do). Add a cap or offset on the Dex-based damage based upon the Strength modifier -- this also has the benefit of keeping people from doing something totally broken by dumping Strength.


According to James Jacob Weapon Versatility counts for things like changing their type to piercing so it would work for changing them to slashing so they could use Slashing Grace.

Grand Lodge

Just want to revisit the fact that the Elven Curved Blade is a two-handed weapon and therefore cannot be used with Slashing Grace.

Does that mean it can be used one-handed if it was down one size category?

Grand Lodge

Richard McGuffin wrote:

Just want to revisit the fact that the Elven Curved Blade is a two-handed weapon and therefore cannot be used with Slashing Grace.

Does that mean it can be used one-handed if it was down one size category?

Yes, but that doesn't make a it a one-handed weapon for purposes of the feat.


claudekennilol wrote:
Richard McGuffin wrote:

Just want to revisit the fact that the Elven Curved Blade is a two-handed weapon and therefore cannot be used with Slashing Grace.

Does that mean it can be used one-handed if it was down one size category?

Yes, but that doesn't make a it a one-handed weapon for purposes of the feat.

And you could not use Weapon Finesse with it.

Weapon Finesse wrote:

Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.

Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.

The Exchange

leo1925 wrote:

First of all, slashing grace does not work for light slashing weapons, you need one handed slashing weapons.

People keep saying this. But I can't find any actual source for it.

They're both 1 handed slashing weapons.

Has there ever been an official comment on if the light part factors in at all for this?


Rushley son of Halum wrote:

People keep saying this. But I can't find any actual source for it.

Slashing Grace wrote:
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.

One-handed is a category of weapon that can be wielded with one hand or two. Light weapons are a distinctly different category of weapon that can be wielded with one hand but cannot be wielded with two hand, and they have lesser penalties when used in two-weapon fighting.

Light weapons are not one-handed weapons.
Similarly one-handed weapons are not two-handed weapons even though they can be wielded in two hands.
PRD wrote:
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).

The Exchange

So the answer is no, you don't have an official source declaring a distinction. You're using your own judgement.

That is fine. But in my mind a one-handed weapon is a weapon that i'm wielding with one hand.

You say light weapons are not one handed weapons, to that I ask, how does one wield a light weapon if not with 1 hand?

Grand Lodge

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Uh, he literally quoted the rule that states that light is a separate category from one-handed. How is that not an official rules source declaring a distinction between the two?


Rushley son of Halum wrote:
You say light weapons are not one handed weapons, to that I ask, how does one wield a light weapon if not with 1 hand?
PRD wrote:
Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large).

As per the rules of the game light, one-handed, and two-handed are not classifications that describe the number of hands that it is used in.

Number of hands a melee weapon may be used in.
Light/one
One-handed/one, or two
Two-handed/two

Light weapons are wielded in one hand. That does not make them on handed weapons.


Rushley son of Halum wrote:

So the answer is no, you don't have an official source declaring a distinction. You're using your own judgement.

That is fine. But in my mind a one-handed weapon is a weapon that i'm wielding with one hand.

You say light weapons are not one handed weapons, to that I ask, how does one wield a light weapon if not with 1 hand?

If what you say is true, then normal one handed weapons don't with the ability because you can wield them in two hands. In fact, light weapons can also be wielded in two weapons.

"Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage.": So, light is usable in two hands without advantage.

"If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls."

"Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so.": Does the weapon somehow change weapon categories? Or does it make more sense to instead follow the weapon charts for light, one handed, and two handed? To me, the chart makes more sense.


Jeff Merola wrote:
Uh, he literally quoted the rule that states that light is a separate category from one-handed. How is that not an official rules source declaring a distinction between the two?

To be fair I think he may have posted that as I was editing in the quote in.


Understand the rules as they are written, but I find it wierd that if you wanted to play a swashbuckler wielding a dagger or kukri, or gladius that then you could not take advantage of the slashing grace because they fall in the light category.

On another note, slashing grace mentions you need weapon finesse as a pre-req, how would that apply in this situation:

Level 1 human swashbuckler with swashbuckler finesse
Human feat: Weap Focus - Scimitar
1st level feat = ? Can I take slashing grace to use my scimitar in this fashion now or would I have to take weap finesse and then take slashing grace?

Also once that is done, that would mean that in the above example I would use Dex on attacks and damage with the scimitar ??


Swashbuckler Finesse counts as Weapon Finesse for pre-reqs, so you wouldn't have to take Weapon Finesse. You could use your second feat to take Slashing Grace.


Swashbuckler's Finesse is explicitly called out as serving as Weapon Finesse for the purpose of pre-reqs.


Night_Shade wrote:

Understand the rules as they are written, but I find it wierd that if you wanted to play a swashbuckler wielding a dagger or kukri, or gladius that then you could not take advantage of the slashing grace because they fall in the light category.

On another note, slashing grace mentions you need weapon finesse as a pre-req, how would that apply in this situation:

Level 1 human swashbuckler with swashbuckler finesse
Human feat: Weap Focus - Scimitar
1st level feat = ? Can I take slashing grace to use my scimitar in this fashion now or would I have to take weap finesse and then take slashing grace?

Also once that is done, that would mean that in the above example I would use Dex on attacks and damage with the scimitar ??

Take inspired blade swashbuckler. This gets you weapon focus rapier and Swashbuckler's Finesse. Spend a first level feat on Fencing Grace. You now use dex to hit and damage with rapier. If you're human, you have another feat to spend.

Or you could take normal swashbuckler and spend both 1st level feats on weapon focus and slashing grace. With the damage and crit the same, why not get an extra feat out of it?

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