Kasatha!What's a Kasatha? :PHere's a fun idea.
What do you think of a Kasatha Alchemist with Vestigial Arm discovery (twice) and the Phantom Limb discovery? Silly? Bad-ass? Both?
(I am so designing this guy right now)
Hmm... I like how they wrote a racial archetype for the Ranger that is strictly worse than a Kasatha that goes Sohei Monk and selects bows for his weapon group. Only -2 attack penalty, and they get Manyshot and Rapid Shot twice (if using two bows) whereas the Ranger gets it once.
[Edit] What are your thoughts on using the Kasatha as a race in your games? Do you think you'll ever use one?
Not sure yet. I generally put a fair amount of thought as to which races are available in my campaign (which has 20+ expected races atm).
Perhaps after refluffing. The info on the d20pfsrd is really slim and doesn't really describe much about them beyond their statistics. It's not like I don't already have aliens in my game (there's a race of psionic refugees that fled to the planet the setting exists on because their homeworld was overrun with aberrations such as neothelids and psychothelids and now they're trying to prevent them from taking control of this world as well).
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Kasatha!What's a Kasatha? :PHere's a fun idea.
What do you think of a Kasatha Alchemist with Vestigial Arm discovery (twice) and the Phantom Limb discovery? Silly? Bad-ass? Both?
(I am so designing this guy right now)
Hmm... I like how they wrote a racial archetype for the Ranger that is strictly worse than a Kasatha that goes Sohei Monk and selects bows for his weapon group. Only -2 attack penalty, and they get Manyshot and Rapid Shot twice (if using two bows) whereas the Ranger gets it once.
[Edit] What are your thoughts on using the Kasatha as a race in your games? Do you think you'll ever use one?
Not sure yet. I generally put a fair amount of thought as to which races are available in my campaign (which has 20+ expected races atm).
Perhaps after refluffing. The info on the d20pfsrd is really slim and doesn't really describe much about them beyond their statistics. It's not like I don't already have aliens in my game (there's a race of psionic refugees that fled to the planet the setting exists on because their homeworld was overrun with aberrations such as neothelids and psychothelids and now they're trying to prevent them from taking control of this world as well).
Straight from the Nethys' Magic Mouth
If you've got bestiary 4, they've got a write up in there. Same with People of the Stars, though I don't have that. I believe they're in one of the Iron Gods books too.
Hmmm... Ya know, I'd love to see a Kasatha Tetori grab 4 guys and start strangling them, all at once.... I think I may build my Ninja/Monk grappling assassin, since there was some mechanic somewhere that now gave the benefit of being able to make sure grappled targets don't make a sound... Which was the big problem I was having with said character... No sneaking out of the shadows, grabbing someone, and dragging them back in to silently squeeze the life out of them.
Kasatha!What's a Kasatha? :PHere's a fun idea.
What do you think of a Kasatha Alchemist with Vestigial Arm discovery (twice) and the Phantom Limb discovery? Silly? Bad-ass? Both?
(I am so designing this guy right now)
Hmm... I like how they wrote a racial archetype for the Ranger that is strictly worse than a Kasatha that goes Sohei Monk and selects bows for his weapon group. Only -2 attack penalty, and they get Manyshot and Rapid Shot twice (if using two bows) whereas the Ranger gets it once.
[Edit] What are your thoughts on using the Kasatha as a race in your games? Do you think you'll ever use one?
Not sure yet. I generally put a fair amount of thought as to which races are available in my campaign (which has 20+ expected races atm).
Perhaps after refluffing. The info on the d20pfsrd is really slim and doesn't really describe much about them beyond their statistics. It's not like I don't already have aliens in my game (there's a race of psionic refugees that fled to the planet the setting exists on because their homeworld was overrun with aberrations such as neothelids and psychothelids and now they're trying to prevent them from taking control of this world as well).
Straight from the Nethys' Magic Mouth
If you've got bestiary 4, they've got a write up in there. Same with People of the Stars, though I don't have that. I believe they're in one of the Iron Gods books too.
Hmmm... Ya know, I'd love to see a Kasatha Tetori grab 4 guys and start strangling them, all at once.... I think I may build my Ninja/Monk grappling assassin, since there was some mechanic somewhere that now gave the benefit of being able to make sure grappled targets don't make a sound......
Hmm.... Scary thought: TWF, Rapid Shot, Kasatha Gunslinger with Power Attack and a Scimitar it wields in two hands. It uses a free action to switch to one-handed Scimitar and the reloads it's guns, then re-grips his scimitar.
So he uses all of his high attacks for melee combat, then uses his low attacks for ranged fighting. Use 5-foot steps to get out of a creature's reach and he attacks other enemies with his guns.
psychothelids
???
O.O
o.o
*whimper*
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psychothelids???
O.O
o.o
*whimper*
I picture something involving tentacle hentai and telepathy... I don't think I like this game anymore.
Cannibalism! Good/Evil axis or Law/Chaos axis!?
What is they gain no power from it and it's merely cultural!?
WHY DO PEOPLE STILL CARE ABOUT THIS!?
Also... How do you like your coffee?
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psychothelids???
O.O
o.o
*whimper*
Psychothelids are a race of amphibious tentacle-faced humanoids with psionic powers. They were created as a slave race by the neothelids to serve as intermediaries between themselves and their aboleth allies. They feed on the psychic energies of living creatures. In the distant future, some rebelled and became autonomous from their neothelid overlords and are now fleeing/wandering/conspiring rebels against their former creators.
The first rebellion occurred when one of the lowly neothelids devoured its master's psyche after it was wounded in battle on Alvena. It then awoke to greater aspirations, then assumed command of its brethren, seeing itself no longer as a servant but a prophet of the maddening truth. The mad prophet, forseeing the conclusion of victory by their creators over all life in the universe, led his (or her, as few have seen the prophet) people in a psychic ritual that twisted time and space and transported themselves to the distant past in an effort to alter the river of time to direct its flow in such a way as to prevent the conclusion the prophet foresaw.
So when the Starkin landed on Alvena, to their shock they found a group of Psychothelids awaiting them not with intent to fight but with open arms (and tentacles) to help them more easily adapt to their new home, and to help further the cause of eventually stopping the invasion of the Neothelid and Aboleths from extending their will across the known universe. Of course, to do this, the mad prophet realized this is not just their war anymore...it was now the war of all sentient life.
What the mad prophet saw exactly is anyone's guess. Some have even speculated that playing god with time and space is madness even by comparison to its creators, and it's uncertain exactly what it will mean for the prophet itself if it manages to change the course of history, for if it does, it will never have consumed the mind of its creator, never had its vision, never led its people, never sent its people back in time to prevent...yeah...
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I picture something involving tentacle hentai and telepathy... I don't think I like this game anymore.psychothelids???
O.O
o.o
*whimper*
Aberration mating practices are a beautiful if horrifying thing to behold.
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Cannibalism! Good/Evil axis or Law/Chaos axis!?
Neither. It's on the hungry/not hungry axis.
It's neither innately lawful or chaotic. An argument for either could be made, but that argument becomes one of whether or not it's a culturally accepted tradition or whether it goes against what is accepted by culture. This creates a logical problem though as it would mean cannibalism is both lawful if eating your kind is a tradition, or chaotic if it is not, so it is actually neither (such as wearing earrings is neither).
The good/evil bit is even easier. Since cannibalism involves eating an inanimate object (a corpse) it's not hurting, oppressing, or killing anyone and thus is not evil. It's generally not an act of altruism, protecting life (well, it might be if you're eating to survive), or ensuring the quality of sentient life, so it's not good either.
It's just a thing. Like eating a carrot. It is, however, seen as disgusting and gross by most creatures. However gross is neither good nor evil, it's just gross. :P
Now killing is evil, and killing other sentient creatures just to eat them is a big no-no.
What is they gain no power from it and it's merely cultural!?
It doesn't matter. You get power from everything that you eat. If it's not evil to gain power from consuming a deer's corpse, it's not evil to gain power from consuming a human's corpse. "Culture" does not determine alignment and shouldn't. D&D/PF alignment is objective because it has to cut through the BS of culture for two major reasons.
1. If it is subjective, it is meaningless.
2. It's bad form to be making blanket statements about real life cultures and/or religions out of context. For example, some of the Pathfinder devs have a stance on Cannibalism that could be rather insulting to Christians (Catholics especially). It also is condemning of people who have had to eat dead people in situations of survival (which I think is unfair).
EDIT: 3. And to certain tribal cultures who have actually held cannibalism as a tradition of the funeral practices of their people for reasons that are actually quite beautiful, touching, and sentimental. Also, would you mind passing the ketchup?
Because to eat is to gain power. That much is scientifically obvious. It's the reason we eat at all. Through a process of biochemistry we break down what we eat to use as both materials for our bodies to be rebuilt with as well as to produce energy to run them with. Which means that according to some PF-Devs (who apparently never took the time to actually read the alignment chapter >_>) those kids in the Donner party way back when were evil. I'm not buying it.
WHY DO PEOPLE STILL CARE ABOUT THIS!?
It's at least more interesting that celebrity gossip. :P
Also... How do you like your coffee?
I don't drink coffee actually. I'm more of a hot chocolate sort. :)
Ashiel, what do you believe the sort of features a Mage-Killer would definitely require to achieve it's concept?
Aka if this class walked into a room with a Wizard, it'd be a 70-30 odds(60-40 is also acceptable) of them killing the Wizard mono E mono.
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Dear Ashiel,
THAANKYOUU!
Everytime I bring up my tribal cannibal barbarian-classed shaman halfling, knickers get twisted and I have no choice but to facepalm and wind up with a Sokka-sized red mark on my forehead.
Also. How would you respond if I said you and Mikaze were my 2 fave people on the boards?
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Ashiel, what do you believe the sort of features a Mage-Killer would definitely require to achieve it's concept?
Aka if this class walked into a room with a Wizard, it'd be a 70-30 odds(60-40 is also acceptable) of them killing the Wizard mono E mono.
Assuming we're talking both classes being able to bring their full potential to work at each tier of levels, I'd be looking for something like the following.
1. Excellent defenses vs magic, similar to barbarians and Paladins (superstition, eater of magic, divine grace, select immunities, etc.), energy resistances, etc.
2. Ways of dealing with spells (really strong dispelling abilities, like the barbarian's spell sunder).
3. Methods of piercing illusions (see invisibility/true seeing kind of stuff).
4. Methods of stifling the mage's options. Preventing the mage from doing things like teleporting, dimension dooring, shadow walking, plane shifting. Combined with piercing illusions above so that you can actually land the hits to apply the effects. If your attacks dimensional anchored your foe, for example.
5. Abilities to sweep summoned adds. You don't have to kill them, but dispelling/dismissing would work too (spell sunder + whirlwind attack can be surprisingly effective and tossing a lot of summoned adds back to hell).
6. Abilities to say "F-NO" to tactics like magic-jar + simulacrum (spell sunder works here again, because you can literally spank the wizard out of the body) so that the wizard cannot hide inside it's icecream solar.
7. Good mobility (you need to be able to chase that wizard down when he starts playing defensively). This may mean having your own 'ports like dimension door. You'll probably also want an ability that'll let you become ethereal or attack ethereal creatures so when the wizard uses projected image + ethereal jaunt you can continue your offense rather than just diving for cover while trying to outlast the spell-throwing image. Also freedom of movement is a staple.
8. Knowing what to target. A good spellcraft skill w/ arcane sight so that you can do things like ID magic items and spell-effects on the go, which is good for knowing which ones to stifle/destroy first.
9. Tempo-boosting/counters. Having methods of bouncing spells back like spell turning can help pull the tempo into your favor (forcing the mage to change tactics or waste action opportunity). Having a couple of immediate action counters would be nice as well (such as allowing you to sunder an incoming spell or ready an action to disrupt a spell as a swift action).
The majority of these things can be done with a barbarian with some specific magic item selections already. A generic loadout I'd recommend would be the following.
1. A phase locking life-drinking weapon (more on this below), a disrupting weapon (more on this below), a defiant gauntlet and a courageous gauntlet.
2. The following magic effects...
- Arcane sight for 5 minutes per day in 1 minute increments, free action activation (12,000 gp)
- Freedom of movement for 70 minutes per day in 10 minute increments, free action activation (16,800 gp)
- Resist energy acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic 10 at CL 1 added to your equipment (+22,500 gp) to dissuade simulacrums spamming spells like acid arrow, scorching ray, sound burst, etc. If you can afford it, resistance 20 (+157,500 gp) may be worth it.
- Ring of evasion.
- Death ward for 7 minutes per day in 1 minute increments, free action activation (22,400 gp).
- A cape of mountebank or similar effect added to your regular cloak (+16,200 gp), preferably multiple times for extra charges.
- A 1/day ethereal jaunt item (32,760 gp).
- A constant mind blank item (120,000 gp).
- A quickrunner's shirt with several charges (or a quickrunner effect added to other pieces of gear for +1,500 gp).
The life drinking weapon is one of your primary offenses against the mage. It inflicts 2 negative levels on the mage with each hit which in turn reduces the mages caster level and concentration checks by -2 with each strike. Using Arcane Sight (and your maxed Spellcraft skill) you can see if they have death ward up, and if they do, your first attack in your routine should be to sunder that with spell sunder, and then begin carving your name into them using your own death ward effect to offset your negative levels. Every successful hit vs the wizard will inflict -2 levels and the negative levels are multiplied on a crit (so if you threaten, burn a rage power use to auto-confirm it). This weakens most of the spells the mage can use and makes it harder for the mage to concentrate on things. It also has the side benefit of ending the fight quickly (stack 20 negative levels and the mage dies, GG). Each negative level also reduces the mage's attacks, saves, skills, and CMD by -1, and their HP by -5 (so -2/-10 per hit).
If the mage is undead (such as a lich) and the life-drinker won't work, instead keep full-attacking with a disrupting weapon. It has a 5% chance per hit to just outright destroy them in their entirety. It's not the most reliable tactic but hasted barbarian should be putting out at least 5+ high-accuracy attacks per round and at the very least probably frighten the undead onto the defensive.
Whenever possible, spell-sunder irritating buffs off of your foe, forcing them to go without or waste actions rebuffing (this will get around pesky spells like mirror image, displacement, death ward, and freedom of movement). Don't hesitate to actually sunder the mage's magic items. You're not in this to loot the mage, you're in this to kill them (loot can come later), so if the wizard has any magic items that you've identified with irritating features, wreck dat sheet).
Superstition + Eater of Magic is your #1 defense against most things the mage will pull. Eater of magic is mostly for the free 2nd saving throw against spells you initially failed. Ring of evasion benefits nicely here as well. However, the best benefit of Superstition + Eater of Magic comes in the fact you make saves for your magic items vs mage's disjunction. It'll keep your items functioning through hell and back and should you roll a 1, eat the magic and negate the spell's effect on you further for that casting.
Spell Sunder can be used to 1-HitKO summons because they can be dispelled. If you have the spare feats (entirely optional) you can pick up Whirlwind Attack and using Strength Surge + Spell Sunder obliterate any attempts to dogpile you under hordes of summons. Alternatively, classics like Come and Get Me work just fine too in most cases (works great if you want to combine it with Fueled by Vengeance so that enemies that manage to land hits against you will give you more rage rounds when you whack 'em).
If the mage starts pushing panic buttons like gating in solars, you're actually winning. All the tactics mentioned here work 100% fine vs a Solar as well. Keep pressing the offensive and the mage will be forced to either GTFO or die. Nothing outsmarts bullet barbarian. With your phase-locking weapon, you can keep the mage painfully pinned down once you've landed your first hit.
If you can get the Savage Intuition rage power, you'll auto-rage if the mage tries an ambush tactic. This alone is worth its weight in raise dead gems because it means your spell defenses come online the moment that the surprise round starts, at which point even ambushing you means that the mage will have a really frustrating time killing you (as otherwise catching you unaware and droping a disjunction on you before your rage is active is probably their best bet).
If you're in a party, have your cleric cast greater spell immunity on you long before the battle begins and select limited wish as one of the spells you're immune to. That'll **** over any dirty attempts to geas you, drop your saves by -7, or similar means.
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Dear Ashiel,
THAANKYOUU!
Everytime I bring up my tribal cannibal barbarian-classed shaman halfling, knickers get twisted and I have no choice but to facepalm and wind up with a Sokka-sized red mark on my forehead.
You're welcome. The alignment system in D&D/Pathfinder is actually a really good one for evaluating the morality of something. As noted, it ignores cultural/religious biases and/or traditions and gets right down to things that are more or less universally good/evil with basic explanations as to why.
It's when people try to introduce additional preconceptions that things start getting hairy. It's also why people scream "Alignment doesn't work", when in fact they aren't using Alignment in the first place. At least not in the way it's written.
Also. How would you respond if I said you and Mikaze were my 2 fave people on the boards?
Very, very honored. ^_^
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Ashiel, what do you believe the sort of features a Mage-Killer would definitely require to achieve it's concept?
Aka if this class walked into a room with a Wizard, it'd be a 70-30 odds(60-40 is also acceptable) of them killing the Wizard mono E mono.
Assuming we're talking both classes being able to bring their full potential to work at each tier of levels, I'd be looking for something like the following.
1. Excellent defenses vs magic, similar to barbarians and Paladins (superstition, eater of magic, divine grace, select immunities, etc.), energy resistances, etc.
2. Ways of dealing with spells (really strong dispelling abilities, like the barbarian's spell sunder).
3. Methods of piercing illusions (see invisibility/true seeing kind of stuff).
4. Methods of stifling the mage's options. Preventing the mage from doing things like teleporting, dimension dooring, shadow walking, plane shifting. Combined with piercing illusions above so that you can actually land the hits to apply the effects. If your attacks dimensional anchored your foe, for example.
5. Abilities to sweep summoned adds. You don't have to kill them, but dispelling/dismissing would work too (spell sunder + whirlwind attack can be surprisingly effective and tossing a lot of summoned adds back to hell).
6. Abilities to say "F-NO" to tactics like magic-jar + simulacrum (spell sunder works here again, because you can literally spank the wizard out of the body) so that the wizard cannot hide inside it's icecream solar.
7. Good mobility (you need to be able to chase that wizard down when he starts playing defensively). This may mean having your own 'ports like dimension door. You'll probably also want an ability that'll let you become ethereal or attack ethereal creatures so when the wizard uses projected image + ethereal jaunt you can continue your offense rather than just diving for cover while trying to outlast the spell-throwing image. Also freedom of movement is a staple.
8....
<takes notes>
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Ashiel, what do you believe the sort of features a Mage-Killer would definitely require to achieve it's concept?
Aka if this class walked into a room with a Wizard, it'd be a 70-30 odds(60-40 is also acceptable) of them killing the Wizard mono E mono.
Assuming we're talking both classes being able to bring their full potential to work at each tier of levels, I'd be looking for something like the following.
1. Excellent defenses vs magic, similar to barbarians and Paladins (superstition, eater of magic, divine grace, select immunities, etc.), energy resistances, etc.
2. Ways of dealing with spells (really strong dispelling abilities, like the barbarian's spell sunder).
3. Methods of piercing illusions (see invisibility/true seeing kind of stuff).
4. Methods of stifling the mage's options. Preventing the mage from doing things like teleporting, dimension dooring, shadow walking, plane shifting. Combined with piercing illusions above so that you can actually land the hits to apply the effects. If your attacks dimensional anchored your foe, for example.
5. Abilities to sweep summoned adds. You don't have to kill them, but dispelling/dismissing would work too (spell sunder + whirlwind attack can be surprisingly effective and tossing a lot of summoned adds back to hell).
6. Abilities to say "F-NO" to tactics like magic-jar + simulacrum (spell sunder works here again, because you can literally spank the wizard out of the body) so that the wizard cannot hide inside it's icecream solar.
7. Good mobility (you need to be able to chase that wizard down when he starts playing defensively). This may mean having your own 'ports like dimension door. You'll probably also want an ability that'll let you become ethereal or attack ethereal creatures so when the wizard uses projected image + ethereal jaunt you can continue your offense rather than just diving for cover while trying to outlast the spell-throwing image. Also freedom of movement is a staple.
8....
*Paging AM BARBARIAN*
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Something interesting to point out is that the vast majority of the barbarian's strengths in the previous post come from...defense. How much damage the barbarian can put out in this case is less important than how frequently the barbarian can say "That's cool but..."
In a full party it's actually easier because you have team members with different jobs. A mage or cleric can sweep large quantities of adds in short order (with spells like banishment, circle of death, holy word, etc) which saves the barbarian time. In a solid party, the barbarian is basically going to auto-wreck the CMDs of everything because the wizard cast greater magic weapon on his courageous gauntlet and he gets greater heroism tacked on (possibly with a helping of Inspire Courage).
Worse yet, if you have an ally who can reliably shut down the mage, the barbarian is going to hurt them bad. For example, if you have a druid, an incense of meditation and call lightning storm is a reliable method of poking at enemy casters so they have a cruddy time casting their spells (ready action->50 dmg lightning bolt each round).
IMHO, barbarian is magic-lite done-right.
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This is one of the reasons I'm very pro-Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger. Defensively speaking, Rangers have the worst defenses out of the three but that's because they're more of a Stealth-striker/skill monkey class. With mind blank + hide in plain sight, it's viciously difficult to actually pin the bastards down in combat since they can just keep vanishing and then suddenly ambush you after marking you with Quarry + Instant Enemy.
Trust me, no matter who you are, you do not want the following to occur.
Ranger (having stalked you and activated instant enemy and quarry a bit ago) opens from Stealth with a free move action (quickrunner's shirt) into a hasted full attack against you, with a +14 to hit and +10 to damage on top of his usual buffs, and auto-confirming critical threats against you. If you disengage the Ranger pursues and Stealths as he does. Since the stealth isn't invisibility you can't see it via true seeing/see invisibility/invisibility purge, and mind-blank up means you can't be discerned with most divination spells, so it's faerie fire/glitterdust or bust at that point (of course the Ranger's already quaffed a +10 Stealth elixir, has pass without trace active, and may have invested feats into Stealth (Skill Focus alone gives another +6) which means that you still might struggle to find him or her).
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Whenever I'm GMing, I generally try to ensure that new players get a chance to learn what to do at high levels over the course of the early levels. High-level gameplay is essentially advanced gameplay. It means you don't need to ask what your attack modifier is, or if your AC is high enough, it means you understand those things and can move on to thinking about combat in not even 3D but X-D, where combat can be taking place on multiple layers of existence at the same time.
It's less about what your Strength score is and more about if your tactic is a solid one for punching through the weak point in your enemy's (or working as a team to create that weak point). It's about knowing what your abilities are and how to use them. One of the beautiful things about martials at this level is very little actually protects against a sword in a meaningful way. For all the immunities, defensive buffs, and so forth, if your wizard just decides "A f-it," and hurls the party's martial character at them ala FighterMartial-doken, something is going to get hurt.
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Thank you for your thoughts. They are much appreciated.
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Thank you for your thoughts. They are much appreciated.
You're welcome. If you're making a mage-slayer class (or options for existing classes), just think of how you would play a caster to the hilt and then think of ways that would disrupt that and/or make it difficult. The biggest reason the barbarian-example in the previous post comes as an issue is because the usual ways a mage would trivialize the fight with them...just don't work very well. :|
Basically forces the mage to start digging into their bag of tricks to find something that will let them effectively fight them. In many cases the least risky option is just running away (and if the barbarian has that one rage power that makes 'em rage during the surprise round, hit and run is of marginal usefulness as well).
Though I'm not suggesting that you use this mechanic explicitly (it's far from perfect for 3.x/PF), in Baldur's Gate, there's a class called the Inquisitor (a paladin kit) that gives up Paladin casting in return for an SLA many times per day that casts Dispel Magic (effectively greater dispel magic in that game) at their class level x2 (it strips most everything in a massive AoE). The class was barely anything other than "Have sword, stop magic" and yet it was so damn good at ruining mages that a lot of rebalancing mods offer the option to nerf their SLA. XD
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Have Sword, Stop Magic sounds like a good name for a class feature/class quote.
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Have Sword, Stop Magic sounds like a good name for a class feature/class quote.
You've just coined the new phrase every one of my mage-hunter martials is going to state at one point in their career. Bravo.
Also...
*takes notes*
Edit: Hey Ash, got any suggestions on ways to find some good examples of higher level play? I haven't gotten into anything over like level 10-13 in ages, which makes me weep.
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Ashiel, what do you believe the sort of features a Mage-Killer would definitely require to achieve it's concept?
Aka if this class walked into a room with a Wizard, it'd be a 70-30 odds(60-40 is also acceptable) of them killing the Wizard mono E mono.
How do you kill a wizard with 2 obsolete sound systems?
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How do you kill a wizard with 2 obsolete sound systems?Ashiel, what do you believe the sort of features a Mage-Killer would definitely require to achieve it's concept?
Aka if this class walked into a room with a Wizard, it'd be a 70-30 odds(60-40 is also acceptable) of them killing the Wizard mono E mono.
Turns out Mono e mono is an error folks picked up in the English language from the Spanish Mano a Mano which means hand to hand, not one on one as I had intended.
*The More You Know*
How do you kill a wizard with 2 obsolete sound systems?Ashiel, what do you believe the sort of features a Mage-Killer would definitely require to achieve it's concept?
Aka if this class walked into a room with a Wizard, it'd be a 70-30 odds(60-40 is also acceptable) of them killing the Wizard mono E mono.
Turns out Mono e mono is an error folks picked up in the English language from the Spanish Mano a Mano which means hand to hand, not one on one as I had intended.
*The More You Know*
I know... That's why I poked fun at your post, you silly goblin! ^^
I think the expression you're looking for is "uno a uno".
*Ahora tu sabes... Y saber es mitad de la batalla!*
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Edit: Hey Ash, got any suggestions on ways to find some good examples of higher level play? I haven't gotten into anything over like level 10-13 in ages, which makes me weep.
Well if you can't find a good game to get to high levels, you can always try running one. I started GMing way back when 'cause there were no GMs around (and I sucked at it :P) and still GM most of the stuff I'm involved in these days (probably a 90/10 GMing/Playing ratio overall, though I've been a PC much more in the last few years thanks to online tabletops).
The Pathfinder system for building encounters makes getting into high-tier play a lot easier (since it streamlines creating the encounters in a very functional way). Best advice I'd say is don't rush it. Make sure you're comfortable with what your character (or players) are capable of before venturing into the upper echelons of adventuring/godhood. Jumping strait into it without being comfortable with what can be done at low levels will blow the minds of everyone involved. :P
If you want to see a sad, sad cluster**** of anarchic failures, have people who are inexperienced roll high level characters. It's sensory overload as they'll have like a million different options/abilities and no clue as to when, where, or why to use them. :P
This is one of the reasons I always start newbies out in low level games and let them work their way up. You learn important things as you slowly advance to the next tiers. Every 2 levels or so, your party generally gets access to new toys in the form of spells and/or new class features, which gives you some time to learn your new abilities so that when you get the next bunch, you can practice with those. If you've been in a pretty diverse campaign or two, by the time you're up to high levels you should know good and well what buffs work, why, and how to deal with common dangers that you've been facing for a while.
In a lot of ways it's like WoW. I've seen players who bought top-level characters from other players (and you can buy 'em from Blizzard now, for the low-low price of $60 you can have your own virtual testament to your laziness and lack of desire to play the game you're playing! :P), and most of those players are so utterly lost with the high-level character that they struggle to even understand the fundamentals of their class. Compared to someone who actually leveled their PC from low to high levels and learned how to use each of their abilities as they advanced.
But as with everything, practice makes perfect. ^_^
Oh, and if you DO decide to GM and continue a game up into high levels, a few pieces of advice I'd offer would be...
1. You're not rat bashing anymore. Don't bother with trivial quests (with some exceptions). I've seen a lot of GMs who seem to think things like "protect the caravan from the orcs" is something that's appropriate for high-level PCs. These types of quests normally aren't (with some exceptions if you're good at pulling it off, see note below) appropriate or interesting to the PCs.
Note: There's some exceptions. For example, while escorting a simple caravan through the woods is probably lame, guarding the equivalent of the Arc of the Covenant through a treacherous path through a volcano in the domain of a red dragon and his wyvern servants is an entirely different sort of escort quest (even if it's still essentially "protect the wagon").
2. Let PCs be cool. They are capable of amazing things, so let them. It's no fun to have access to all these cool things you can do only for the GM to deus-ex them all away. Don't explicitly try to create encounters that invalidate the cool things they do. While it might seem like you're just trying to make it "challenging", there's little more boring than being given cool toys and then being unable to play with them.
3. These aren't your Daddy's PCs. PCs were this. They are now this. You can take off the kid gloves now. Enemies can fight rough, hard, and dirty, and the PCs will probably still win (or have get out of jail cards). Don't be shocked or put off when your PCs do stuff that just seems completely insane and then pull it off. There is rarely only one way to bypass an obstacle now (and that's good). When your PCs sweep an entire wave of demons in one round, enjoy, and get ready for round 2. Don't be like "omg, overpowered!", grin and enjoy the fact you don't have to hold back anymore.
This extends to noncombat challenges. If you ask the party to retrieve the irretrievable gem from the adamantine vault with no door, odds are they can probably get said irretrievable gem without breaking a sweat. At low levels, the PCs would just stare slackjawed at the prospect, while at this level it's really just a matter of time and/or thinking about ways to get inside the vault (or to temporarily remove the vault), and then once the vault is no longer an obstacle, figure out why the gem is irretrievable (maybe the gem is incorporeal and you need a ghost touch gauntlet to pick it up), etc. Even if they don't have a ghost touch gauntlet by golly they're high levels, they can figure out something (maybe the Paladin uses his divine bond long enough to grab the gem and toss it into his favorite bag of holding, or the wizard greater teleports to a metropolis and tells his magic item dealer that he needs a magical glove of ghost-groping and he needs it yesturday). Point is, it's not an impossible task, it's just a matter of time and effort.
4. Don't hate diviners! Soooooo many GMs pseudo-ban divination spells because their plots are weaksauce and can't stand up to the scrutiny of omniscience! Don't be that GM! Spells like commune, divination, and contact other plane are not your enemy, they are your ally. Finally you can dump all kinds of cool plot information on your PCs without it being bizarre to do so! It's like a blank check of plot-progression. You can even use these sorts of things to give cool insights into NPCs and their motivations. Use these spells, don't shun them. :D
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Divination is soooooooo fun. I've lost count of how many riddles and rhymes I've cooked up for my divining-happy oracle in Kingmaker. It's great to watch the PCs try and puzzle the riddles out. Amusingly, they still tend to find the riddles more useful and easier to figure out than the yes/no/maybe/can't answer that straightforwardness of commune, despite it being higher level, mostly because commune requires you to ask the right questions in the first place.
Edit: Hey Ash, got any suggestions on ways to find some good examples of higher level play? I haven't gotten into anything over like level 10-13 in ages, which makes me weep.Well if you can't find a good game to get to high levels, you can always try running one. I started GMing way back when 'cause there were no GMs around (and I sucked at it :P) and still GM most of the stuff I'm involved in these days (probably a 90/10 GMing/Playing ratio overall, though I've been a PC much more in the last few years thanks to online tabletops).
The Pathfinder system for building encounters makes getting into high-tier play a lot easier (since it streamlines creating the encounters in a very functional way). Best advice I'd say is don't rush it. Make sure you're comfortable with what your character (or players) are capable of before venturing into the upper echelons of adventuring/godhood. Jumping strait into it without being comfortable with what can be done at low levels will blow the minds of everyone involved. :P
If you want to see a sad, sad cluster**** of anarchic failures, have people who are inexperienced roll high level characters. It's sensory overload as they'll have like a million different options/abilities and no clue as to when, where, or why to use them. :P
This is one of the reasons I always start newbies out in low level games and let them work their way up. You learn important things as you slowly advance to the next tiers. Every 2 levels or so, your party generally gets access to new toys in the form of spells and/or new class features, which gives you some time to learn your new abilities so that when you get the next bunch, you can practice with those. If you've been in a pretty diverse campaign or two, by the time you're up to high levels you should know good and well what buffs work, why, and how to deal with common dangers that you've been facing for a while.
In a lot of ways it's like WoW. I've seen players who bought top-level characters from...
Basically, experience with high level play is the best way to handle high level play Unfortunately, that's something I sorely lack myself. I have lots of theoretical knowledge of how things work, and lots of game and rule knowledge, but putting it all into practice is something I rarely get to do. On the plus side, the people who I... well, the other Pathfinder people in my area are similarly inexperienced, but also lack the knowledge I do.
Hmm. Pretty much everything I'd already suspected/researched/overheard.
And I don't think you really need to worry about me psuedo-banning stuff for characters. I toss WBL right out the window, change feat progression to every level, and give free prestige classes that act like phantom 'epic' levels (add everything right onto your character, BAB included).... At 2 level earlier (I drop all skill, BAB, and level requirements over 3 by 2, minimum 3. Spellcasting requirements remains the same. Still testing this out, lost my play group before I could really get a feel for it.)...
High-powered OMFG WHAT ARE YOU DOING!? type games are my bread and butter. Wanna get catapulted from the North Tower of Crag Eye Keep to drive your spear into the biggest, baddest looking bad guy in the enemy army halfway down the mountain during a siege? Go for it. Just hope the engineers have good aim. Oh, and enjoy all that extra damage dice if you hit on your suicide dive. I hope he's squishy enough to break your fall.
Wanna blow up the moon and let the falling rocks take care of the city? By all means, have at it. Summon up a succubus to out the incubi posing as the church head, or at the very least discredit him? Fan-freaking-tastic!
I love out of the box stuff. Odds are most players would look at my games and cringe. Admittedly, I started doing it when I started out DMing because I tend to run more 'brutal' games. I always advise my players to keep at least one extra character on hand and up to date incase someone kicks the bucket... Did I mention I brought back system shock for Polymorph and Resurrections from 2E?
Been far too long since I've actually DM'd one. And certainly haven't gotten around to DMing a high level 1 on 1. I'm hoping to brush off my rust at least a bit and run TPK Game's Reaping Stone for Tarinia and myself, but we can't seem to decide on characters xD. Rather, I can't, she's going to tiefling oni-spawn monk...
Anyhow... Thanks for the refresher. I'd forgotten quite a few bits of that. Eventually I'll get around to shaking off my rust and enjoying the DM seat again, just haven't gotten my fill as a PC yet for my tastes xD.
Now for the obligatory question!: Would you care to lend some advice on a couple system changes I've been working on via PM?
Now for the obligatory question!: Would you care to lend some advice on a couple system changes I've been working on via PM?
Sure. :)
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If anyone cares, I wrote an informal mini-essay/guide for why I think CR is actually a good thing in this game, in response to a question in another thread. Here's the link.
If anyone cares, I wrote an informal mini-essay/guide for why I think CR is actually a good thing in this game, in response to a question in another thread. Here's the link.
What's wrong with the Skeletal Champion template? I've not had issues using it yet, though I could have just unintentionally compensated or avoided them.
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What's wrong with the Skeletal Champion template? I've not had issues using it yet, though I could have just unintentionally compensated or avoided them.If anyone cares, I wrote an informal mini-essay/guide for why I think CR is actually a good thing in this game, in response to a question in another thread. Here's the link.
“Skeletal Champion” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature) and a minimum Intelligence of 3.
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
Erinyes have 9HD and some pretty baller SLAs. A skeletal champion Erinyes has all of their SLAs and a number of their other features (including DR, though now they have DR 5/bludgeoning), and are now "CR 4". So here's your CR 4 erinyes skeletal champion who's dropping CL 12 unholy blights on the party for 6d8 damage per round, Will save (DC 19 halves).
This isn't even trying to break it. :|
Slap it on any high level creature. A 20th level skeletal champion bard for example is "CR 9" because a normal 20HD skeleton is CR 8, +1 brings it to 9.
What's wrong with the Skeletal Champion template? I've not had issues using it yet, though I could have just unintentionally compensated or avoided them.If anyone cares, I wrote an informal mini-essay/guide for why I think CR is actually a good thing in this game, in response to a question in another thread. Here's the link.
“Skeletal Champion” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature) and a minimum Intelligence of 3.
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
Erinyes have 9HD and some pretty baller SLAs. A skeletal champion Erinyes has all of their SLAs and a number of their other features (including DR, though now they have DR 5/bludgeoning), and are now "CR 4". So here's your CR 4 erinyes skeletal champion who's dropping CL 12 unholy blights on the party for 6d8 damage per round, Will save (DC 19 halves).
This isn't even trying to break it. :|
Slap it on any high level creature. A 20th level skeletal champion bard for example is "CR 9" because a normal 20HD skeleton is CR 8, +1 brings it to 9.
Ah, I see. I guess I just never had an issue because I never used Skeletal Champions beyond a 9 HD human fighter. After that point, skeletons just didn't cut it as enemies anymore, and creating a Skeletal Champion basically means creating an NPC anyway unless I use monsters.
Ah, I see. I guess I just never had an issue because I never used Skeletal Champions beyond a 9 HD human fighter. After that point, skeletons just didn't cut it as enemies anymore, and creating a Skeletal Champion basically means creating an NPC anyway unless I use monsters.What's wrong with the Skeletal Champion template? I've not had issues using it yet, though I could have just unintentionally compensated or avoided them.If anyone cares, I wrote an informal mini-essay/guide for why I think CR is actually a good thing in this game, in response to a question in another thread. Here's the link.
“Skeletal Champion” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature) and a minimum Intelligence of 3.
CR: A skeletal champion's CR is +1 higher than a normal skeleton with the same HD.
Erinyes have 9HD and some pretty baller SLAs. A skeletal champion Erinyes has all of their SLAs and a number of their other features (including DR, though now they have DR 5/bludgeoning), and are now "CR 4". So here's your CR 4 erinyes skeletal champion who's dropping CL 12 unholy blights on the party for 6d8 damage per round, Will save (DC 19 halves).
This isn't even trying to break it. :|
Slap it on any high level creature. A 20th level skeletal champion bard for example is "CR 9" because a normal 20HD skeleton is CR 8, +1 brings it to 9.
Well that's an example too in a way. Said champion would be CR 4, but a 9HD human fighter is supposed to be CR 8 (albeit I lightly touched on that some classes aren't worth their CR, and I was mostly talking about Fighter :P). If you had used, say, a 9HD wizard you probably would have stepped back and said, "Huh, this CR 4 creature casts spells as a 9th level wizard...not cool". :P
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Yeah, for skeletal champion, +1 CR of the base creature would probably have broken a great deal fewer creatures.
What about advanced and giant?
Giant seems strictly worse than spending the time to advance the creature by HD, but not that much worse (in that the point in its use is for quick adjustments, not extensive creature changes).
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That seems like a good explanation for it. Affliction is also my favorite so far. ^_^Yeah, having favored affliction, that seems very familiar :P
I always saw the 3 specs as:
Affliction: Stronger Dots, weaker DDs/AoEs, standard pets
Destruction: Standard Dots, stronger DDs/AoEs, standard pets
Demonology: Standard Dots, standard DDs/AoEs, stronger pets
As a point of interest, Cataclysm probably had the most interesting and synergistic affliction spec among all of the expansions. I have no idea why Blizzard decided to change it so much with Mists (although the Destro and Demo got quite a bit better with that expansion).
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Pfff... You WoW players care only about optimization, DPR and rollplaying!
Back in my day players roleplayed so well that Robert DeNiro, Marlon Brando and Al Paccino would be jealous of our players' performance! And our storylines were so deep, emotionally involving and thought-provoking that they put Citizen Kane, To Kill a Mocking Bird and Casablanca to shame!
Oh, yeah... We had roleplay-heavy games! Like Tomb of Horrors... And great freedom and focus on character customization... With our random rolled stats and attribute prerequisites for base classes...
Grumble, grumble...
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Pfff... You WoW players care only about optimization, DPR and rollplaying!
Back in my day players roleplayed so well that Robert DeNiro, Marlon Brando and Al Paccino would be jealous of our players' performance! And our storylines were so deep, emotionally involving and thought-provoking that they put Citizen Kane, To Kill a Mocking Bird and Casablanca to shame!
Oh, yeah... We had roleplay-heavy games! Like Tomb of Horrors... And great freedom and focus on character customization... With our random rolled stats and attribute prerequisites for base classes...
Grumble, grumble...
But did you have to carry the Ring to Morodor up hill, both ways, in the snow?
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Yeah, for skeletal champion, +1 CR of the base creature would probably have broken a great deal fewer creatures.
What about advanced and giant?
Giant seems strictly worse than spending the time to advance the creature by HD, but not that much worse (in that the point in its use is for quick adjustments, not extensive creature changes).
Similar problems with the advanced and giant templates. Both tend to have very profound effects on very low CR creatures, only to turn anything in the middle/upper range into XP/loot pinatas.
For example, applying the advanced template to a CR 1/3 orc warrior to bring it to CR 1/2 may result in the orc ruthlessly destroying your entire party (as +2 to everything is very potent at this CR range), while applying the advanced template to a Hezrou demon may not even have a noticeable difference beyond increasing the creature's XP value.
In a similar vein, the giant and young templates generally produce creatures that aren't weak enough to warrant the -1 CR, or aren't strong enough to warrant +1 CR. Especially since those templates don't actually influence the effects of HD like actual advancement does, and/or have no affect on the majority of a creature's abilities (unless those abilities are directly influenced by Str/Con).
Here's an example from the campaign I'm running right now. As part of a major boss-encounter, I decided to drop a bigass Hezrou demon into the game (because bigger is badder! >:D) and was lazy about it and just applied the giant template. The effect it had was +1 CR, but only mildly affected its attack routine, made it a lot easier to hit (the Dex penalty plus the size penalty) without making it significantly beefier (the Con boost was not enough to make up for the lost HD).
Had I done it manually through HD advancement, the demon would have become huge sized, gained 5 HD, +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +3 natural armor. By virtue of gaining 5 HD, he would have gotten an additional +5 BAB and 3 additional feats, and +1 to an ability score of its choice (such as Con). Counting the boosted Con, said demon would have went from 145 HP to 262 HP. His attack routine would have gone from +17 to +25, and his damage bonus from +8 to +12. His saves would have also increased by +4, +0, +2.
The end result was very disappointing. >_>
The simple template, like the advanced template is brutally powerful on a low-CR enemy. Grossly disappointing on a higher level enemy. Which is, again, very sad.
The end result was that the creatures "bigness" was merely an illusion. It felt tacked on (as it was) and I'd have been better off just eating the extra CR adjustment for advancing him in HD and actually have the fight with him feel appropriately epic. Live and learn. :P
As a point of interest, Cataclysm probably had the most interesting and synergistic affliction spec among all of the expansions. I have no idea why Blizzard decided to change it so much with Mists (although the Destro and Demo got quite a bit better with that expansion).That seems like a good explanation for it. Affliction is also my favorite so far. ^_^Yeah, having favored affliction, that seems very familiar :P
I always saw the 3 specs as:
Affliction: Stronger Dots, weaker DDs/AoEs, standard pets
Destruction: Standard Dots, stronger DDs/AoEs, standard pets
Demonology: Standard Dots, standard DDs/AoEs, stronger pets
I haven't tried Cataclysm, but I might get around to it sometime. I play on a private server 'cause I liked the WotLK expansion a ton. That said, I might give Cataclysm a go (I think there are some good Cataclysm private servers too).
Speaking of which, Ashiel, what are your favorite magic rings in Pathfinder? That includes both printed rings and custom.
I'll need to think about it and get back to you. :)
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Oh dear Ashiel I doth have a question.
On this night of which 3 hours of sleep been had.
Its an urgent question of such random.
Only The ashiel of adventure can answer.
If one day you met a ghastly troll under yonder bridge.
Who offered real certified magic beans.
What he asked for trade one might wonder.
But only a grope of thy backdoor bosom.
If blinks were greeted me like expected.
Who said trolls lingo matched thine own?
So would one tango with this here troll.
Or let one get tango'd by the troll.
Another repeat of his question in summary.
Magic beans for backdoor bosom.
Tho one cannot forget the matching hand gestures.
If still confusing blinks were met.
A grope of his own ass would be example.
So tell me the Ashiel what one would do.
When met with said troll under yonder bridge.
I'm sure ones answer would be cool.
I now make my leave with babbling left.
This here tree do look quiet comfy.
One remind me for future reference.
Tinfoil and wind make one a sleepless night.
If an answer is not had before i come to senses.
Then hopefully no sees my instance.
The instance i dare lost of the reins.
The reins to mine own randomness.
So i bid the well dear ashiel.
May not the dwarves find me as i sleep under this tree.
For i still owe them that one goblet.
Of a job i dare took when down on ones luck.
Never take a job from a fighter dwarf of hammers.
Whose ones words seem to involve much the same.
Also may not the orcs find me either.
For i promised that one a night a few taverns back.
One who i cant seem to remember.
Tho from what i can tell remembers me.
Also wish not the elves to find me either.
I sort of stold something i also cant remember.
Better yet only wish upon me what follows next.
Wish upon me nights of the GOOD monster guys.
You know what i mean and if not oh well.
Then wish me sweet dreams of tinfoiless winds.
I bid sweet dreams and days to you.
I await they reply with similar cadence.
If not then i still await thy reply.
Also if you could cover that bill at that one inn.
I sort of broke the window...
And other things when i did rage.
At the tinfoiled wind against said window.
Now i really should bid thee well.
Or this will go on much longer.
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But did you have to carry the Ring to Morodor up hill, both ways, in the snow?Pfff... You WoW players care only about optimization, DPR and rollplaying!
Back in my day players roleplayed so well that Robert DeNiro, Marlon Brando and Al Paccino would be jealous of our players' performance! And our storylines were so deep, emotionally involving and thought-provoking that they put Citizen Kane, To Kill a Mocking Bird and Casablanca to shame!
Oh, yeah... We had roleplay-heavy games! Like Tomb of Horrors... And great freedom and focus on character customization... With our random rolled stats and attribute prerequisites for base classes...
Grumble, grumble...
Uphill only, obviously. First off we never expected to make it back down the mountain. Then suprise eagles.
Kids these days, no sense of history or the classics.
What about advanced and giant?
Giant seems strictly worse than spending the time to advance the creature by HD, but not that much worse (in that the point in its use is for quick adjustments, not extensive creature changes).Similar problems with the advanced and giant templates. Both tend to have very profound effects on very low CR creatures, only to turn anything in the middle/upper range into XP/loot pinatas.
For example, applying the advanced template to a CR 1/3 orc warrior to bring it to CR 1/2 may result in the orc ruthlessly destroying your entire party (as +2 to everything is very potent at this CR range), while applying the advanced template to a Hezrou demon may not even have a noticeable difference beyond increasing the creature's XP value.
In a similar vein, the giant and young templates generally produce creatures that aren't weak enough to warrant the -1 CR, or aren't strong enough to warrant +1 CR. Especially since those templates don't actually influence the effects of HD like actual advancement does, and/or have no affect on the majority of a creature's abilities (unless those abilities are directly influenced by Str/Con).
Here's an example from the campaign I'm running right now. As part of a major boss-encounter, I decided to drop a bigass Hezrou demon into the game (because bigger is badder! >:D) and was lazy about it and just applied the giant template. The effect it had was +1 CR, but only mildly affected its attack routine, made it a lot easier to hit (the Dex penalty plus the size penalty) without making it significantly beefier (the Con boost was not enough to make up for the lost HD).
Had I done it manually through HD advancement, the demon would have become huge sized, gained 5 HD, +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +3 natural armor. By virtue of gaining 5 HD, he would have gotten an additional +5 BAB and 3 additional feats, and +1 to an ability score of its choice (such as Con). Counting the boosted Con, said demon would have went from 145 HP to 262 HP. His attack routine would have gone from +17 to +25, and his damage bonus from +8 to +12. His saves would have also increased by +4, +0, +2.
The end result was very disappointing. >_>
The simple template, like the advanced template is brutally powerful on a low-CR enemy. Grossly disappointing on a higher level enemy. Which is, again, very sad.The end result was that the creatures "bigness" was merely an illusion. It felt tacked on (as it was) and I'd have been better off just eating the extra CR adjustment for advancing him in HD and actually have the fight with him feel appropriately epic. Live and learn. :P
I don't think that is a fair comparison.
The giant template increases the CR by +1 to 12. To advance a Hezrou to a comparable CR 12 by adding racial HD you would only add one HD, which would be significantly less impressive than the extra reach and +8 str bonus, +3 natural armor that the giant template gives the now huge hezrou. The giant template seems a bigger power up than the racial HD here.
Increasing the HD by taking the CR 11 from 145 hp to 262 hp increases the CR to 17. Alterantively to advancing the racial HD you could go with giant template and then add on five CR of levels, for class abilities, NPC stat boosts, and NPC gear. That can be adding on more than the 5 racial HD.
So for increasing a monster's power it seems that using the template and other methods to hit the target CR than using racial HD advancement leads to a stronger encounter.
I don't know if this applies universally, but for your example CR 11 Hezrou that's how it looks to me.
Partly its because the CR increase from HD is based solely on hp increased, high con monsters get fewer HD per CR increase but most everything else flows from the HD (BAB, saves, DCs).
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The end result was that the creatures "bigness" was merely an illusion. It felt tacked on (as it was) and I'd have been better off just eating the extra CR adjustment for advancing him in HD and actually have the fight with him feel appropriately epic. Live and learn. :P
Much obliged at the advice. I'll remember it the next time I'm running a home campaign. My wife is running Skull and Shackles in campaign mode, and she has certainly been advancing the enemies rather than just adding templates.
Oh dear Ashiel I doth have a question.
On this night of which 3 hours of sleep been had.
Its an urgent question of such random.
Only The ashiel of adventure can answer.
If one day you met a ghastly troll under yonder bridge.
Who offered real certified magic beans.
What he asked for trade one might wonder.
But only a grope of thy backdoor bosom.
If blinks were greeted me like expected.
Who said trolls lingo matched thine own?
So would one tango with this here troll.
Or let one get tango'd by the troll.
Another repeat of his question in summary.
Magic beans for backdoor bosom.
Tho one cannot forget the matching hand gestures.
If still confusing blinks were met.
A grope of his own ass would be example.
So tell me the Ashiel what one would do.
When met with said troll under yonder bridge.
I'm sure ones answer would be cool.
I now make my leave with babbling left.
This here tree do look quiet comfy.
One remind me for future reference.
Tinfoil and wind make one a sleepless night.
If an answer is not had before i come to senses.
Then hopefully no sees my instance.
The instance i dare lost of the reins.
The reins to mine own randomness.
So i bid the well dear ashiel.
May not the dwarves find me as i sleep under this tree.
For i still owe them that one goblet.
Of a job i dare took when down on ones luck.
Never take a job from a fighter dwarf of hammers.
Whose ones words seem to involve much the same.
Also may not the orcs find me either.
For i promised that one a night a few taverns back.
One who i cant seem to remember.
Tho from what i can tell remembers me.
Also wish not the elves to find me either.
I sort of stold something i also cant remember.
Better yet only wish upon me what follows next.
Wish upon me nights of the GOOD monster guys.
You know what i mean and if not oh well.
Then wish me sweet dreams of tinfoiless winds.
I bid sweet dreams and days to you.
I await they reply with similar cadence.
If not then i...
I guess it depends on what the magic beans did (I guess they might be the giant beanstalk leading into another dimension sort, but it could be nearly anything :D), and how the troll went about it. In all honesty if someone just started fondling my back-end, I'd probably be like "Er, wtf?", but if someone was like, "Hey...it would make me super happy to fondle your back-end. May I?", I just let 'em. It's not like it's costing me anything (if anything it's probably gonna get me some laughs).
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What are your thoughts on the scalability of the fey creature template? (specifically for me, I'm tempted on using it with some animals like dire wolves)
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I don't think that is a fair comparison.
The giant template increases the CR by +1 to 12. To advance a Hezrou to a comparable CR 12 by adding racial HD you would only add one HD, which would be significantly less impressive than the extra reach and +8 str bonus, +3 natural armor that the giant template gives the now huge hezrou. The giant template seems a bigger power up than the racial HD here.
Firstly, no, it's not a fair comparison. However, it directly relates to the part where I said it felt tacked on and did little to change the Hezrou other than to just make him worth more XP. Which, like the advanced template, it does little that would actually warrant a CR increase.
That said, I'm also going to point out that the monster creation chart in the bestiary is all but useless and the advancement chart is kind of a joke as well, unfortunately (I wish they weren't). Even existing bestiary monsters don't stack up to the charts very well (in fact, the chart tends to come up wanting more often than not), and the charts take no consideration for special abilities and/or defenses.
For example, the chart only worries about whether or not it has more HP. But as you noted, that actually makes more Constitution a weakness (since having more Con = less HD, while having less Con = still gaining the same HP because you add more HD, except now you're upping BAB, Saves, Skills, Feats, Abilities, etc). In a similar vein, it ignores what the creature is capable of.
It's saddening, really. About the only portions of the Monster Advancement chapter in Pathfinder that are actually any good tend to be the parts that were mostly lifted from 3.5 with only slight adjustments. I've traditionally gotten far more mileage out of using the 3.5 MM's advance-by-HD mechanics than I have from Pathfinder's, as Pathfinder's always just seem to end up in broken monsters. :(
IMHO, the best examples of templates that I've seen are actually the ones like celestial/fiendish that become appropriately more powerful with the base creature. What is powerful at 3rd level is not necessarily powerful at 13th level, and in a small way these templates acknowledge that by giving scaling benefits.