| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
on a similar note, why are people so against shades of gray?
I'm really not sure. I've considered perhaps it is because life is full of shades of gray and people want things to be "simple" in their games.
James Jacobs has on at least one occasion suggested that they try to "hardcode" things so that it's all the more special when they break the rules (but I think that's a horrible idea).
Sometimes I think people want to push a certain idea of a particular thing, such as "the corrupting influence of the dark side" really hard but without the elegance that such a thing needs to actually work and not be filled with holes and logical problems.
The odd thing is, I don't really see why people have to have an all or nothing sort of mindset with things. For example, it's no secret that I'm pretty solidly in the camp of non-evil undead being okay, but I've still got lots of evil undead and necromancers in my campaign, and some of those undead are essentially terrible corrupted abomination sorts, but that doesn't make them all that way.
You can play with all sorts of ideas in new ways. For example, in the game I was running for Raital and Aratrok, I had a Marilith with a sort of "Queen Alien" vibe to her (she was at the center of a ruined city, which her demons had infested, and she was laying lots of eggs at the heart of the city in preparation for great shenanigans, and was breeding the locals to produce fiendish offspring). Part of the allure of the adventure was discerning the motives of the marilith and possibly destroying a city's worth of unborn mariliths or something. It would be silly to say that some of this wasn't inspired by the movie Aliens. :P
I really do try to understand but I just can't. I always end up disappointed and dissatisfied with the issue. I just could not play in a game where there are only 9 different personalities and everything your character does is binary on a scale of good/evil. It's too immersion breaking and feels wholly unnatural.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the subject of magic and fantasy kitchen sinks, I run most of my campaigns with a explanation of magic that is loosely based off of occult concepts from reality (whether magic exists in any form in reality is pretty irrelevant :P). The gist being that magic is a sort of universal thing that simply exists, and various magical traditions have developed ways - often different in form but similar in function - of harnessing or manipulating that universal force.
Some access this magic through their divine souls, some through the grace of deities, some through focused will, some through incantations that they use to focus their minds in an almost Pavlovian way. However, no matter how the characters interact with magic through their minds and/or souls, the end result is mostly the same - which in turn is why things like dispel magic work fine across arcane/divine, and why dispel psionics works fine too. It's also the reason that SLAs work, etc.
I think magic can be understood, at least the general laws of magic, since it can be tested in much the same ways as anything else; through observation and repetition. It shouldn't take long for the fundamental principles of magic to be discovered, such as how polymorph effects work, and how they relate to things like lycanthropy, doppelgangers, or non-spell versions like Wild Shape.
For me personally, I like that magic be at least mildly explained (such as how the different means of harnessing magic are all harnessing the same energy, rather than having three dozen versions of magic) but overall it's more of a plot device than the plot itself, at least in most cases. Not that you can't use the laws of magic as great puzzle pieces in a fine plot. In fact, having a character know how magic works (such the aforementioned laws of polymorphing spells) can allow for quite a bit of detective work.
Wizard: "Hm, no, whatever this beast was, it wasn't a mage,"
Rogue: "How do you know that?"
Wizard: "Because the tuft of fur that was sliced off is still here,"
Rogue: "So?"
Wizard: "It would have returned to the form of the mage before its transformation, or else it would have to be incredibly powerful magic like the fabled shapechange spell,"
Rogue: "So how do you know it wasn't?"
Wizard: "There's no aura,"
Rogue: "Magic like that would leave a powerful aura in its wake, and there's no such aura. What we're dealing with is indeed some sort of large and highly intelligent beast,"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
">The monk requires dedication.
It does? It seems like just "a martial artist" to me."
If all the monk class did was unarmed then certainly, but you forget all the supernatural chi based things they do, and those would not be gained by a guy who just got a lot of practice at brawling. This concept is why I don't like classes, bevause classed are built around specific concepts, and if your concept doesn't fit an existing class, oh well you're [fudgcicles]. It isn't the alignmemt restriction that is the problem with this example, it is the class restriction, implied rather than explicit, the restriction is still there. The monk class isn't about anybody who is awesome at unarmed combat, it is about those like kung-fu monks. The bar brawler is outside the conceptual space the monk class is designed to cover, you just weren't given a better option is all.
>those would not be gained by a guy who just got a lot of practice at brawling
Why the hell not? That's how Goku learned kamehameha:lots of practice in brawling, then tried to cast it for 2 minutes after seeing someone else(Roshi) do it. Seemed to work just fine for him.
I feel like this is yet another example of a sort of C/MD at work:martials are stuck with "logical"(really not) class concepts, while casters get to be whatever the hell they want(you don't see all those years of education Wizards are supposed to have necessitating them to be Lawful, now do you)
To Ashiel: I challenge you to draw that scene with the town governed by the Marilith, in whichever way you like.
To Ashiel: I challenge you to draw that scene with the town governed by the Marilith, in whichever way you like.
On it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Far from finished but I'm about to grab something to eat and figured I'd share an early draft. "Oh Ishtok, it's been so long. Why don't give give me a hug?"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"B@$$#, shut up and get in my pokeball." *throws artifact book of binding at*
"Why the hell not? That's how Goku"
DnD was designed as a casually simulationist game that matched the real world then tacked on the impossible features of fantasy in a way that built further on the rules developed for simulating reality.
Stories like DBZ not only have less need for rules, they also have less need for consistency and plausibility.
Plausibility is rather important for an rpg though, as players will often use their real world knowledge and reasoning in the game. It breaks the immersion when things happen that the player knows shouldn't without a reason. For example, if you know lots about fires and how they spread, you might know that a particular building as described would take X long for a fire in one room to spread to every room, so when the GM says it takes 1/10th that long, it would be either you losing immersion "that's impossible, it should have taken X long" or you automatically assume a mitigating circumstance that doesn't apply "that was far too quick for a natural fire, it must of have been arson" which might not only get a face palm from the GM but also spur you to find the arsonist that doesn't exist because the GM needs it to be a natural fire, which in turn leads to frustration for everyone.
Or try wanting to jump a 15' gap and being told it is too far for amy body to jump, despite you having done exactly that and also knowing olympic records are 30+ feet.
It is the reason I don't play martials. Too much stuff I can do, that martials can't do so they become frustrating at the limits.
That said, some players (probably the chaotic ones) can simply let go and overlook such things. How they achieve that is far beyond my understanding, but in my experience is only about 1/4 of players.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is the reason I don't play martials. Too much stuff I can do, that martials can't do so they become frustrating at the limits.So, does that mean C/MD is actually a feature of the game, rather than a balancing issue? :Q
That magic is/should be better than ordinariness? Cause that would actually make sense, after a fact. I mean, we do have NPC classes that are generally worse than actual ones. It might make sense that regular classes could be separated into "mundane heroes" and "magical heroes". I mean, like an official tier list.
Not in a level based system. A 10th level Fighter and a 10th level Wizard are ostensibly supposed to be roughly as powerful as each other.
If you wanted to implement something like that, you'd probably want to do something like make Fighter a class that's only a few levels long, at which point you have to come to terms with the unsuitability of the concept for higher level play and prestige into something more appropriate (say, hypothetically, Dragon Knight, Spellsword, Horde Breaker, Hero, etc).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Not necessarily. A "Fighter" class could simply be one that performs feats one would consider impossible through his extraordinary skill. Like being able to cut down a forest with his sword, or use his axe to create a fissure forming a new canyon, or flatten a mountain with a hammer. Honestly, I think "martials" could stand toe-to toe-to with magic if writers drew more inspiration from animal.
I remember writing up a pretty terrible draft of an idea for a class one night after finishing reading the relevant light novels and tuen decided to binge SAO and SAO2 across 2 days with no sleep. While the draft itself is terrible, some of the things I wrote, while way OP in their current form, weren't terrible ideas for martials.
For example, like being able to "attack" an AoE spell or effect to counteract the damage. Or being able to partially deflect an enemies attack, lessening the damage it would deal. Or slashing the enemy hard enough they temporarily reduce the DR or hardness of the enemy.
Huh, I don't remember sharing it, but turns out I did. Come, and witness my terrible class design with the Sword Saint.
Anyway, there are a lot of things from a lot less mystical anime or Manga that martials could draw from. Like Rurouni Kenshin, or Samurai Champloo. Or even take some ideas from some of the "trapped in an MMORPG" shows like Log Horizon or Grim gar or even the grand daddy .hack/.
I mean, so many protagonists in supernatural anime are often some warrior of a sort. So mandala in Japan have come up with numerous ways of making their Muggle warriors still stand out. I mean, even though the characters all have some sort of supernatural ability to assist in some way, the characters in in RWBY are all predominantly Muggle badass warriors.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know this is semantics, but I think a the line between a muggle and a wizard is seriously blurred in anime :D And that's pretty awesome!
I think the east - more than the west - has this idea that excellence and perfection can become supernatural. Or rather, it's natural for excellence to break the limits of normality. So technically the "Animu" martials are just spellcasters who deal almost exclusively with enhancing their own capabilities rather than flinging fireballs and such.
I think the old Indian pantheon had all these demigods who were like super martials. I think it was Arjuna who was so skilled with a bow he could mend a cut string instantly in the middle of combat! :D
Also, I'm pretty sure that even in the old classic LotR, elves were capable of using skill to exceed physical laws, like shipwrights making flying ships. Well, one could say elves are inherently magical creatures, but that could just be given to the entire population of sentient creatures in a fantasy world :p
I think a fair amount of that is due to a lot of eastern martial philosophies touching on esoteric concepts of spirit, life energy, etc.
I have an old karate manual (it's older than I am) that discusses things like drawing energy into your stomach with proper breathing technique, and discusses the psychological impact of shouting, and mentions things like visualization and mind over matter in addition to physical exercise and what-not. Having read a little of it, it's not particularly difficult to see why the concept of someone honing their martial skills so far as to transcend mortal norms wouldn't be particularly strange in some cultures.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, so many protagonists in supernatural anime are often some warrior of a sort. So mandala in Japan have come up with numerous ways of making their Muggle warriors still stand out. I mean, even though the characters all have some sort of supernatural ability to assist in some way, the characters in in RWBY are all predominantly Muggle badass warriors.
I can't help but to think of the anime Outlaw Star which is essentially a space western with magic. There's an entire faction of mages who cast spells and stuff, the main character is a gunslinging drifter who uses mundane bullets and magic shells that contain spells stored inside of them, and his crew includes a sentient bio-construct lady (essentially a man-made person who interfaces with their ship to find the Mcguffin), a were-tiger (Aisha Clan Clan of the C'tarhl C'Tarhl), and a swordswoman who uses a bokken.
The bokken using swordswoman is a top assassin who wrecks people and can tear through walls and stuff with her wooden sword. Mostly because she can channel her inner badass into wrecking faces very effectively. In fact, the protagonist actually couldn't beat her in a fight and kind of cheated (he grabbed her kimono and yanked it, causing her to become embarrassed and they agreed to stop fighting so she could re-adjust her clothes).
Easily one of my favorite animes in ever.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You know... I once played an horror game for Wii. It had two measurements of fear/spookiness.
The "fearmeter" measure how often you get scared... To me it was pretty low. 15~20%, or something... But it also had a "sissymeter", which told you how intensely you moved around when you got spooked. Mine was over 90%!!!
You know what that means?
Some day... I'll german supplex someone who spooks me. XD
Hey! My friend found my save on his Wii... My fearmeter was 12%. My sissymeter was 94%!
I don't know if I should be proud or really embarrassed. XD
PS: Outlaw Star rocks! I found it many years ago while looking for "stuff similar to Cowboy Bebop"... And while they aren't all that similar past the type of setting where the story takes place, Outlaw Star remains among my favorite anime to this day.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, so many protagonists in supernatural anime are often some warrior of a sort. So mandala in Japan have come up with numerous ways of making their Muggle warriors still stand out. I mean, even though the characters all have some sort of supernatural ability to assist in some way, the characters in in RWBY are all predominantly Muggle badass warriors.I can't help but to think of the anime Outlaw Star which is essentially a space western with magic. There's an entire faction of mages who cast spells and stuff, the main character is a gunslinging drifter who uses mundane bullets and magic shells that contain spells stored inside of them, and his crew includes a sentient bio-construct lady (essentially a man-made person who interfaces with their ship to find the Mcguffin), a were-tiger (Aisha Clan Clan of the C'tarhl C'Tarhl), and a swordswoman who uses a bokken.
The bokken using swordswoman is a top assassin who wrecks people and can tear through walls and stuff with her wooden sword. Mostly because she can channel her inner badass into wrecking faces very effectively. In fact, the protagonist actually couldn't beat her in a fight and kind of cheated (he grabbed her kimono and yanked it, causing her to become embarrassed and they agreed to stop fighting so she could re-adjust her clothes).
Easily one of my favorite animes in ever.
Outlaw Star was definitely one of the shows that came to mind with Muggle badasses.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ash, if you had to stat up one of these 35 Pokemon fusions as a homebrew monster, which would it be?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Knowing a fair bit about the pokemon involved in the fusions, there's actually quite a few that I think would make for really cool D&D monsters based on a few themes. The Nidonine would actually make for a great D&D monster as it would likely be physically strong, fast, and possess things like a poisonous breath weapon (perhaps that sprays acid that also poisons things damaged by it), as well as having bite and gore attacks that also poison stuff. It would make for a sexy mount as well.
The Magnetoise, at first, I didn't see a lot of potential for but after thinking about it realized that has a lot of potential due to being a tanky magneton mecha thing. I'd stat 'em out as a giant brute monster that could create repulsion and anti-repulsion fields, which they could use make it difficult for creatures wearing or carrying metal to approach or walk away from them (and I'd make the DC strength based rather than Will based as you must physically push or pull away).
The beedot just looks so cool it deserves something, and following the vein of the pokemon its fused from, I'd probably have it hunt a lot like a wyvern and stab things with poison pinions covering its body. Having the hover feat (to both hover and kick of blinding sandstorms) and giving it some wind and poison abilities (like the ability to produce gusts of wind and cloudkill SLAs would be pretty cool).
The very first pokemon on the list to really jump out at me though as having incredible potential for a D&D monster would be the parasaur. Knowing that parasect is based on cordecepts fungi, but presuming that unlike parasect it doesn't kill the host but functions more like venosaur with a symbiotic relationship, it would be this scary poisonous plant monster that release clouds of spores around it that threatened to take seed in anything they touch or that breathes. In a manner similar to yellow musk creepers and such, they'd probably be regularly surrounded by plant-zombie type things, and leech health from anything that's recently affected by their spores (yay leech seed).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Some unrelated tidbits (I'm working on d20 legends some more, which has been something I've not gotten to do for a few weeks)...
Enchanting is now "Beguiling" (to cut down on mixups since people naturally want to refer to "enchanted" weapons and armors and stuff).
Rewriting and condensing a fair amount of the polymorph subschool descriptions because polymorph spells are being changed to function more similarly to the matamorphosis spells (where you essentially build a creature by picking a selection of abilities, meaning you don't need a Bestiary to use the spells).
Figments, Glamers, and Patterns had a lot of overlap. Glamers assumed most of Figment's stuff and Patterns were replaced with Figments (being sensory illusions that are also mind-affecting). Phantasms remain since they are entirely mental. Shadow spells assume the [Light] and [Dark] descriptor spells because they can create real light & darkness.
What constitutes as interacting with an illusion is more explained, so using illusions should be more consistent from GM to GM. Protip: If you're not practically fondling the illusion you're not going to resist it, so simply viewing or hearing an illusion isn't enough to make it vanish. Also, being shown proof that an illusion is an illusion can allow you to make decisions based on that knowledge but you still perceive the illusion as real (so you might know you can walk through the fake wall but you still see it as a real wall).
The AC of glamers now scales with the experience of the caster, making illusions of creatures (albeit still incapable of harming things) less obvious. Generally it'll be more reliable to trick people into thinking that a thing is real for a few rounds before they realize that the illusion keeps whiffing more than it should.
Components have been adjusted to be less hard coded and more like requiring certain conditions to be met, such as vocal components requiring you be able to speak but you can totally do things like have your casting be due to your sick oratory skills or cast charms as part of conversation.
Some unrelated tidbits (I'm working on d20 legends some more, which has been something I've not gotten to do for a few weeks)...
Enchanting is now "Beguiling" (to cut down on mixups since people naturally want to refer to "enchanted" weapons and armors and stuff).
Rewriting and condensing a fair amount of the polymorph subschool descriptions because polymorph spells are being changed to function more similarly to the matamorphosis spells (where you essentially build a creature by picking a selection of abilities, meaning you don't need a Bestiary to use the spells).
Figments, Glamers, and Patterns had a lot of overlap. Glamers assumed most of Figment's stuff and Patterns were replaced with Figments (being sensory illusions that are also mind-affecting). Phantasms remain since they are entirely mental. Shadow spells assume the [Light] and [Dark] descriptor spells because they can create real light & darkness.
What constitutes as interacting with an illusion is more explained, so using illusions should be more consistent from GM to GM. Protip: If you're not practically fondling the illusion you're not going to resist it, so simply viewing or hearing an illusion isn't enough to make it vanish. Also, being shown proof that an illusion is an illusion can allow you to make decisions based on that knowledge but you still perceive the illusion as real (so you might know you can walk through the fake wall but you still see it as a real wall).
The AC of glamers now scales with the experience of the caster, making illusions of creatures (albeit still incapable of harming things) less obvious. Generally it'll be more reliable to trick people into thinking that a thing is real for a few rounds before they realize that the illusion keeps whiffing more than it should.
i have recently been on a mission to rewrite wizards (because i hate vancian magic) and part of that mission involves redoing the magic school system. it seems so... silly and arbitrary. like i don't know if you've ever read SKR's reasoning on why invisibility can't be mind affecting, but all it did was convince me that they miscategorized the spell for what they want it to do. it either makes the subject invisible by altering the subject and should be transmutation, it actually bends like and should therefore probably be evocation, or it is mind affecting and is fine as an illusion.
it also reminds me i was recently arguing that all spells that allow a will save are essentially mind affecting since your mind is what allows you to exert your will. (i'm also totally comfortable divorcing the concept of magic that affects the mind from the [mind-affecting] descriptor in the same way evil and [evil] are different things in the game.) the main exceptions would be spells that target your gear, but i think they just picked a save because they couldn't think of how to force those to be attack rolls.
the point is i'm interested in where you're doing with your magic changes.
It is the reason I don't play martials. Too much stuff I can do, that martials can't do so they become frustrating at the limits.So, does that mean C/MD is actually a feature of the game, rather than a balancing issue? :Q
That magic is/should be better than ordinariness? Cause that would actually make sense, after a fact. I mean, we do have NPC classes that are generally worse than actual ones. It might make sense that regular classes could be separated into "mundane heroes" and "magical heroes". I mean, like an official tier list.
Not in a level based system. A 10th level Fighter and a 10th level Wizard are ostensibly supposed to be roughly as powerful as each other.
If you wanted to implement something like that, you'd probably want to do something like make Fighter a class that's only a few levels long, at which point you have to come to terms with the unsuitability of the concept for higher level play and prestige into something more appropriate (say, hypothetically, Dragon Knight, Spellsword, Horde Breaker, Hero, etc).
I think there are two things here. First, it is fairly easy to make a scale for real things then extend the scale, but with a black box style of magic is difficult to make a scale and even more difficult to match it to the real things scale.
Second, dnd was a game where magic was so rare that if all the casters of a realm were gathered you'd be lucky to have two squads, thus most people being non-magical is expected despite that fact being at odds with the concept of learnable magic.
Third, the game had to support various levels of magic, so as a campaign with rare, outlawed, or dying magic is as easily supported as a game with commonplace magic. Such a broad system would need non-magical options all the way through, even if those options were inferior to magic options, after all, in world of magic being superior to mundane, why would one want to stay mundane. Indeed this is the bighest reason I think the concept of "all classes must be equally viable" is just nonsense.
I agree with eastern finding martial and magical being blended more than western to be true. In the east, magical comes from controlling the self which is achieved physically as much as mentally, but the west is opposite, with magic coming from masteey of the world which is achieved by knowledge of the world, self mastery unnecessary.
Actually I think it'd be interesting to have a story where these two methods of magic existed as rivals. Also, my world actually does both but blended, the folks find magic comes from self mastery and knowledge of the world, with both needed to achieve significant power, thus education and martial arts are highly revered and the best mages are both skilled warriors and great scholars.
"arguing that all spells that allow a will save are essentially mind affecting"
I don't agree. Mind affecting spells are ones that actually touch the mind magically, but you can do things to people that they might require mental discipline without actually touching their mind with the magic. For example, silent image could be used against an epileptic, by having a pattern that induces an epileptic episode without actually touching their mind. Or a spell that causes physical pain that must be overcome by mental discipline. Or silent image showing a man his wife's horrible torture and execution. All these would require will saves, but none of them have magic actually touch the mind directly, therefore, mindless creatures would still be affected by them, though perhaps in a different way, or more importantly, folks with their mind protected from magical intrusion would still be subject to these effects.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In addition, will often reflects the capability to resist magical effects. Like a will save is used to resist positive/negative energy. It is your ability to exert your will on oncoming foreign magic and deflect or resist it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
i have recently been on a mission to rewrite wizards (because i hate vancian magic) and part of that mission involves redoing the magic school system. it seems so... silly and arbitrary. like i don't know if you've ever read SKR's reasoning on why invisibility can't be mind affecting, but all it did was convince me that they miscategorized the spell for what they want it to do. it either makes the subject invisible by altering the subject and should be transmutation, it actually bends like and should therefore probably be evocation, or it is mind affecting and is fine as an illusion.
Well light/dark manipulation is actually an illusion thing now so yes, it can literally bend light around you. Illusions also aren't all mind-affecting, they can create unreal images and things that can be perceived by anything that have the senses to do so (it's for this reason that a golem can see illusory walls). Figments (or patterns in Pathfinder) are illusions that have perceivable effects but also mess with your mind.
Another thing that's changing is that the schools of magic in D20 Legends aren't absolute. Some spells fall into multiple schools of magic. For example, speak with dead would fall into both Divination and Necromancy. The schools act more to key certain abilities off of (such as a class feature that lets you choose a spell from a particular school) and as a template for finding themed abilities.
none of this changes that your mind is what allows you to exert your will. your will is a function of your mind. again, this isn't to say that they should all be considered [mind-affecting] and therefore not effect mindless creatures. only that they are, in fact, affecting your mind or your mind couldn't resist them.
Well light/dark manipulation is actually an illusion thing now so yes, it can literally bend light around you. Illusions also aren't all mind-affecting, they can create unreal images and things that can be perceived by anything that have the senses to do so (it's for this reason that a golem can see illusory walls). Figments (or patterns in Pathfinder) are illusions that have perceivable effects but also mess with your mind.
right, but i'm saying that i see this as a miscategorization. perception happens in your mind. and if you're actually affecting the light then it's not just an illusion. but my idea of an illusion is probably different from yours.
edit: and i'm not saying any of you are wrong about pathfinder. only that i disagree with pathfinder.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, so many protagonists in supernatural anime are often some warrior of a sort. So mandala in Japan have come up with numerous ways of making their Muggle warriors still stand out. I mean, even though the characters all have some sort of supernatural ability to assist in some way, the characters in in RWBY are all predominantly Muggle badass warriors.I can't help but to think of the anime Outlaw Star which is essentially a space western with magic. There's an entire faction of mages who cast spells and stuff, the main character is a gunslinging drifter who uses mundane bullets and magic shells that contain spells stored inside of them, and his crew includes a sentient bio-construct lady (essentially a man-made person who interfaces with their ship to find the Mcguffin), a were-tiger (Aisha Clan Clan of the C'tarhl C'Tarhl), and a swordswoman who uses a bokken.
The bokken using swordswoman is a top assassin who wrecks people and can tear through walls and stuff with her wooden sword. Mostly because she can channel her inner badass into wrecking faces very effectively. In fact, the protagonist actually couldn't beat her in a fight and kind of cheated (he grabbed her kimono and yanked it, causing her to become embarrassed and they agreed to stop fighting so she could re-adjust her clothes).
Easily one of my favorite animes in ever.
love outlaw star wish it had gone on longer
only that they are, in fact, affecting your mind or your mind couldn't resist them.
i retract this statement. i don't know why i said that. it's just wrong.
there's a better explanation of what i mean somewhere in here, but i've been drinking.
Well, got the horror book. A lot of it is meh. Couple awesome archetypes. Especially like wielding book as weapon inquisitor. Some pretty good spells. The worst magic item I've ever seen. Lose 1 hp permanently for +4 vs pain and the ability to do inflict light wounds at 1d8+5 and a 1d4 round sickened at dc 11. And if the item comes off you, take 1d8 damage and 1 con damage. It admittedly is pretty hard to get off you but still.
Saw the evil thing. It basically says two evil spells drops you to non good, 3 to evil, depending on the time gap between them. Evidently this goes for other alignments too. Nothing like alignment ping-pong. Any spell that sacrifices an living creature is instantly become evil (There's several in this). Acts of torture immediately shift you one step to evil for each one. Also, only non good people can benefit from others dying still. But the guy who hates sentience and wants to devolve everything, he can be good cus he isn't using blood.
What if they are willing living creatures that you are sacrificing?
There's a druid that actually get's that ability. Has to be non-good. But has no special allowances for the spell versions.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Well, got the horror book. A lot of it is meh. Couple awesome archetypes. Especially like wielding book as weapon inquisitor. Some pretty good spells. The worst magic item I've ever seen. Lose 1 hp permanently for +4 vs pain and the ability to do inflict light wounds at 1d8+5 and a 1d4 round sickened at dc 11. And if the item comes off you, take 1d8 damage and 1 con damage. It admittedly is pretty hard to get off you but still.
Saw the evil thing. It basically says two evil spells drops you to non good, 3 to evil, depending on the time gap between them. Evidently this goes for other alignments too. Nothing like alignment ping-pong. Any spell that sacrifices an living creature is instantly become evil (There's several in this). Acts of torture immediately shift you one step to evil for each one. Also, only non good people can benefit from others dying still. But the guy who hates sentience and wants to devolve everything, he can be good cus he isn't using blood.
So.... literally, *pro. from good, pro. from good, pro. from Evil, pro. from evil* and no change in alignment as a result?
My God... It's so F!@$ing easy to abuse! Paizo was stupid to hardcore rules like that. It completely subverts their entire F&!!ing redemption system for Wrath of the Righteous and makes a mockery of moral consequences.
GM: The Hell are you doing?
*Not Evil* player: Killing children for my undead pygmy army.
GM: The f$~%? Why?
*Not Evil* player: I need bodies and there is an orphanage right there. Duh!
GM: That.. that definitely makes you evil and a villain now.
*Not Evil* player: Nah, it's cool. I got a wand of protection from evil. Gimme 3 rounds and I'll be fine.
This crap is better than a Catholic confession, because you've only got to cast 3 spells instead.of admit to every sin.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
>GM: The f$@%? Why?
Player: Why the f!&% not?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Technically one can argue it's not "hardcoded" because it was in a sidebar a bit amidst the spell descriptions.
This still irritates me.
Alignment: A blood alchemist trades the lives of others
for more power when using his lifeblood ability. A nonevil
blood alchemist can’t use the lifeblood ability, but he can use
his other archetype and class abilities, and he can continue
to advance in alchemist.
Basically, when you coup an intelligent humanoid, you can take their lifeblood. This can then be used to make a free extract anytime in the next 24 hours up to a spell level equal to 1/2 the targets hd, but only once for each extract level.
Doing this is solely the thing of evil because trading lives for power is evil. Much like trading the lives of dragons for armor that protects from dragons. Or the lives of elementals for golems. Or the lives of fiends to save orphans. And so on and so forth.
The druid one gets even better. They only have to be non good, but get to murder people to make plants grow, save their own lives, and the ability to cast her domain spells for free. And they get leadership to get a bunch of willing sacrifices.
I guarantee to address this confusing message, they'll just make this druid evil only too rather than the obvious fact if adventurer's can kill someone and take their stuff cus they are dead and don't need it anymore in the course of their adventure, who cares about the blood being taken for the same reason?
>GM: The f$@%? Why?
Player: Why the f#~& not?
I was singing this at work the other night. lol
If you wanted to really insure someone was dead in Pathfinder(say, you caught the BBEG who has a nasty habit of coming back with a vengeance after falling off cliffs into dark rivers), how would you do it? Assume you have a lv 15 or 20 party built for awesome(1 Paladin, 1 Ranger, 1 Bard, 1 Cleric, 1 Druid, 1 Wizard) at your disposal.
Feed them to a dread devourer.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is going to be extremely goofy, but hopefully interesting. Rolling with level 20:
A sacred servant paladin with a bead of karma, orange prism ioun stone, robes of the summit (Xin-Shalast), and a candle of abaddon. They should also have Magical Knack, Unsanctioned Knowledge (death knell and create soul gem), Arithmancy (if it's even allowed- the feat is terrible design), Equipment Trick (wondrous items), Mage's Tattoo (necromancy), Spell Specialization (create soul gem), and if possible Spell Perfection (create soul gem). You probably don't actually want to take all those feats on a paladin, so you're going to be doing retraining to really make sure someone stays cold in the ground. A psion with psychic reformation would help it go much faster and save a ton of money.
You'll want one person to be a changeling with Coven Caster (if you don't have any changeling buddies, a human retrained into Racial Heritage can take it), and one of the full casters to have Eldritch Aid. The cleric should cast sharesister on the paladin to grant them a +3 bonus to their caster level.
All of that was in service of boosting the paladin's caster level as high as possible for one, single spell: create soul gem. Combining all of those effects, their caster level should be 17 (Base) + 6 (Divine Bond) + 4 (bead of karma) + 1 (orange prism ioun stone) + 1 (robes of the summit) + 2 (candle of abaddon) + 2 (Magical Knack) + 1 (death knell on a chicken) + 1 (Arithmancy) + 1 (Equipment Trick) + 1 (Mage's Tattoo) + 2 (Spell Specialization) + 5 (Spell Perfection multiplier) + 1 (Coven Caster) + 4 (Eldritch Aid) + 3 (sharesister) = . With the rules for create soul gem, that means it will take a DC 63 caster level check to bring your unfortunate target back from the grave. Chuck them in a secure, guarded demiplane with a big pile of warding spells and traps (with an unhallow for good measure to increase the DC to 65) and you're good to go.
Realistically you won't be able to do all of that (some of it is pretty infeasible), but you should be able to do enough to get the DC up to a really difficult level. For instance, if you have to have someone other than a paladin cast the spell, the wizard can get away with it (though you'll lose 5 CL from losing the Sacred Servant version of Divine Bond- the cleric can imbue them with death knell).
"... only that they are, in fact, affecting your mind or your mind couldn't resist them."
Well, consider that the [mind-affecting] tag is there for something mechanical, which is too say, earmarking those spells as non effective against targets protected from magic of a certain type, and similar abilities. Only makes sense though when you consider the [mind-affecting] tag as meaning something more specific than just the target's mind being affected, since in a broad view, everything perceived will affect the mind. The most sensible specific thing it could be thus is the [mind-affecting] tag denotes when a spell touches the target's mind directly with an attempt to alter or control that mind.
Some illusions, like silent image, are basically magical holograms. They generate an actual objective thing in the world to be perceived, but it masquerades as something else. Visual/thermal illusions create/affect light, audible illusions create pressure waves, tactile illusions apply force, taste/olfactory illusons create particles that affect scent receptors and taste buds. It is just that usually these effects are so mild, that they are not capable of causing direct harm or similar, but certain affects will be true. I.E. an audible illusion will still cause ripples in water, and visual illusions will still provide concealment, etc.
Well, consider that the [mind-affecting] tag is there for something mechanical...
(i'm also totally comfortable divorcing the concept of magic that affects the mind from the [mind-affecting] descriptor in the same way evil and [evil] are different things in the game.)
again, this isn't to say that they should all be considered [mind-affecting] and therefore not effect mindless creatures.
obviously, i meant "affect".
only that they are, in fact, affecting your mind or your mind couldn't resist them.i retract this statement.
They generate an actual objective thing in the world to be perceived, but it masquerades as something else. Visual/thermal illusions create/affect light, audible illusions create pressure waves, tactile illusions apply force, taste/olfactory illusons create particles that affect scent receptors and taste buds. It is just that usually these effects are so mild, that they are not capable of causing direct harm or similar, but certain affects will be true. I.E. an audible illusion will still cause ripples in water, and visual illusions will still provide concealment, etc.
right, but i'm saying that i see this as a miscategorization... if you're actually affecting the light then it's not just an illusion. but my idea of an illusion is probably different from yours.
edit: and i'm not saying any of you are wrong about pathfinder. only that i disagree with pathfinder.
replace light with whatever.
Or a spell that causes physical pain that must be overcome by mental discipline... would require will saves...
so, are there actual spells that do this and that have will rather than fort saves? because if not, you're arguing that you could design a spell however you want... which... of course you can? but, as far as i can tell, the effect you're talking about is generally a fort save ([@Tels] and, personally, i think resisting positive and negative energy should also be fort).
"replace light with whatever."
An illusion only has two possibilities, either you produce/affect something real in the world, or you control someone's mind. The rules cover both, hence figments and phantasms.
What else could you think an illusion would do? (not rhetorical, I'm curious)
Or a spell that causes physical pain that must be overcome by mental discipline... would require will saves...so, are there actual spells that do this and that have will rather than fort saves? because if not, you're arguing that you could design a spell however you want... which... of course you can? but, as far as i can tell, the effect you're talking about is generally a fort save ([@Tels] and, personally, i think resisting positive and negative energy should also be fort).
To my understanding, fort saves are about physiological resilience to an effect and will saves are psychological resilience. Reflex are the odd one out being an avoidance rather than a resilience.
In any case, my point was that claiming mind affecting as anything that needs psychological resilience would be just silly and pointless mechanically speaking and that how it is used in the mechanics indicates that mind affecting is something more limited and predictable.
For the pain thing, how pain affects you physically would be fort, but being able to take actions and focus on a task in spite of pain is a mental thing, a thing most people have low tolerance for.
I don't know of any crucio spells in d20, but if there is one and it uses fort instead of will to be able to act, then I'd say the designer of it didn't pay attention to the rest of system to see what the saves actually mean. Which is sadly a likely possibility as every supplement I see, and indeed even core d20 derivatives like pathfinder and d20 modern keep getting farther and farther from the original design on such subtle matters, which indicates in my opinion, that few people are able to lok at the rules and understand the underlying logic, instead relying too much on unreliable names and not nearly enough on the more relieble mechanical usage.
Dumb idea sparked by Pokemon: Pathfinder Go app.
You and others walk around with as PCs. You will randomly come across encounters that will be generated based off the number of people in the encounter area. Have quests giver NPCs spawn around town that send you to different locations to solve quests. Fight monsters, save princes, slay dragons.
This was an idea of mine for computer glasses that would oberlay images on top of what you were seeing, but that was before any real ones were publicly announced (I still think my design is better since you don't need to focus on the glasses themselves.).
Just as long as I can pick a drow. :)
Need to go back and read from here.
Crossposted in AMA threads: it's a Paizopaloozaganza!
P vividly you don't work for Paizo, but I'm dropping this in all the AMAs here that I see.
Super-serious series of questions*:
*
If you could have different super-powers, what would they be and why?
(Assume corollary powers required to make a given power work are part of it; i.e. Since you'd need super tensile strength/durability to, you know, not-die when you made use of your super-strength power, you get them both when you say "super strength" as a singular option.)
Why?
If, instead, you could be a gestalt of super heroes, who would you gestalt to be yourself? Why? Which comic universe would you run around in? Would you prefer to be in that one, or this one?
On the other hand: BAM! You just gained levels in a Pathfinder class (or classes)! Which class(es) do you pick, and why? Incidentally, if you could spontaneously switch races, would you? And if so, to which?
Similarly, you won the super-lottery, and gained mythic tiers! of 'em! (And you gain class levels to match; please feel free to change your previous answer if this does so for some reason.) What path do you take? (Alternate option: substitute a single tier for a simple mythic template.)
Yet another query: you monster. Specifically, you (or less) monster! Which are you?! ... and would this have been your first choice? If not, which would be?
But the wheels of fate-time have spun again, and your everything has been transposed into that of someone else! You've just become a prepublished NPC from an official source! Which prepublished NPC is it?
What campaign setting do you run around in? Why?
As a final thing: blend any and/or all of the above questions into a single ginormous question: an optional blend of a prepublished NPC, monster, and some superheroes all walk into a bar... and out comes you, as a gestalt of those guys, the race you choose, some extra superpowers, and have extra class levels and mythic tiers on top! What are you?! (Other than "awesome" - naturally.)
Equipment is a non-issue (like adjunct super-powers; what you need to do <X> is assumed). Also note that any significant others can be brought with you.
"Official" and "Pre-published" are loose terms, but general expect something that has a solid publishing company and identifiable map/world/conceits behind it (like WotC for Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dark Sun, Greyhawk, etc; or Green Ronin for Blue Rose, but not "True20"; or Paizo for Golarion, or the Maelstrom, or the upcoming Starfinder; but not "the Bestiaries" or "the Planes" or things like that - basically things that people can find and nerd out about with you). Similarly, if it has a solid AP out for it, that, too, is acceptable (like Legendary Planet; or any of Paizo's APs). It should probably be a d20 variant, but it can be whatever you like of those many variants (True20, Blue Rose, Paizo, 3.5, 3rd; etc.). That said, if a Homebrew or otherwise "weak" entry just needs to be there due to compelling reasons... okay. Similarly other systems. Let us know why! Computer and video game translations of such (Neverwinter Nights and/or expansions/sequels; PFO; etc) are acceptable as interpretations as well.
Similarly, for comics, it needs to be superheroes that people can reasonsonably be expected to come across - "that one I made up with my cousin as a kid" is an awesome answer, and worth noting and why, but prrrrooooobabaly isn't the best choice, unless it's just so powerful that you've GOT to. In which case: sure, but bring us along for the ride! Related, the super need not come from one of the "big two" in comics, so long as the people and world is both recognizes me and accessible - choosing The Incredibles world is valid (and awesome), as is Spawn (blech); you're not just limited to Marvel or DC. Similarly "standard" powers need not apply - so long as it is clearly communicable, it's fine (even if all the field specifics aren't clear, that's okay - knowing you're powered by our yellow star is fine; you don't need to know this, but it's acceptable if you do).
Finally, presume you have the basics necessary for a happy life. Your spouse, best friend, and so on, can all be considered to "come with you" (should they choose to do so) wherever it is that you go.
Oh, and one more thing: if you lived through a Legend of Zelda (as one of the Links); which would it be, and why?
Thanks! Enjoy!
Pg 53.
An illusion only has two possibilities, either you produce/affect something real in the world, or you control someone's mind. The rules cover both, hence figments and phantasms.
What else could you think an illusion would do? (not rhetorical, I'm curious)
why would it have to do anything else? i thought it was obvious that i don't agree that the first is an illusion. and that i recognize that it is, in fact, an illusion in pathfinder, and that i disagree with pathfinder's decision to call it such.
To my understanding, fort saves are about physiological resilience to an effect and will saves are psychological resilience. Reflex are the odd one out being an avoidance rather than a resilience.
For the pain thing, how pain affects you physically would be fort, but being able to take actions and focus on a task in spite of pain is a mental thing, a thing most people have low tolerance for.
my point is that you're suggesting a new mechanic to handle morale because there's no reason the will saves you're talking about wouldn't also apply to mundane torture. there aren't rules in the game that force you to make a will save or be demoralized because something hurt a lot and there currently isn't a spell for that. a spell would either be targeting your body and resisted by fort or your mind (or apparently gear) and resisted by will. again, if you want to make new spells, you can have them do whatever you want.
I don't know of any crucio spells in d20, but if there is one and it uses fort instead of will to be able to act, then I'd say the designer of it didn't pay attention to the rest of system to see what the saves actually mean.
OR! because you're resisting the spell and the spell targets your physiology to cause pain, it's a fort save to, you know, resist the spell and rest of that stuff you want the spell to do is a subsystem or would be additional effects of the spell potentially allowing for another save similar to phantasmal killer and weird.
"why would it have to do anything else? i thought it was obvious that i don't agree that the first is an illusion. and that i recognize that it is, in fact, an illusion in pathfinder, and that i disagree with pathfinder's decision to call it such."
You only claimed that your idea of an illusion was different. You never clarified why nor defined what your idea of an illusion is. Though I find it odd you don't consider real illusions (like a desert mirage, invisibility fields [yes they exist, just not in a practical form], stage magic, etc) as illusions.
"my point is that you're suggesting a new mechanic to handle morale because there's no reason the will saves you're talking about wouldn't also apply to mundane torture. there aren't rules in the game that force you to make a will save or be demoralized because something hurt a lot and there currently isn't a spell for that. a spell would either be targeting your body and resisted by fort or your mind (or apparently gear) and resisted by will. again, if you want to make new spells, you can have them do whatever you want."
I'm not suggesting new mechanics at all. The system was designed to be guidelines, it was not to be a completely exhaustive list of any and all possibilities. Things like resisting torture are fairly easy to figure out once you know the system. Almost everyone would agree that mental resistance is the obvious choice to not tell secrets under torture, so why make a note of it? but things like how far you can jump, or how long it takes to starve to death are not so obvious and not widely known, thus guidelines are more important there.
This concept of treating the rules as being hard and inflexible is a recent thing and totally contrary to the design.