This thread makes me wonder, how is it common knowledge that barbarians>>fighter when it comes to killin'? It seems to me that mcfighter should outscale the barbarian at some point.
At lvl 1, the barb has +2 hit/+3(2) damage.
The fighter probably has +1 to hit from weapon focus over the other guy.
At fifth level or so however, it seems to me that the fighter should have caught up? I know rage powers provide utility, but killing-wise, it looks to me like
+2hit/+3dmg vs +1/+0 at first level. Barbarian is in favor.
+2/+3 vs +1/+2 at fourth level.
+2/+3 vs +2/+3 at fifth level. Fighter has caught up
+2/+3 vs +3/+3 at 8th level. Fighter is edging the barb out.
+2hit/+3dmg vs +4hit/+4dmg at ninth level.
+3/+4 or +5 vs +4/+4 at tenth. I'd prefer +4/+4 over +3/+5, but YMMV, depending on the ac of the thing you're fighting, and how much damage you deal per swing already.
+3/+4 or +5 vs +4/+6 at 12. level. The fighter is objectively ahead.
+3/+4 or +5 vs +5/+7 at 13. level.
+3/+4 or +5 vs +6/+8 at 17th level.
+4/+6 vs +6/+8 at 20th level.
I've observed the belief in myself as well, but it seems like obvious nonsense, once I really think about it. Am I missing something here?
Maybe we on the boards are just biased because we play more in the 1-4 level space than the 5+?
There are also some problems. I've assumed two-hander style for both characters, as it's widely held as the best thing. However, I think the fighter would gain more from being an archer. The barbarian can take rage powers. The fighter can take feats. The barbarian can take Weapon Focus. The fighter has Armor training and gains weapon mastery when the barbarian gains its last rage bump.
I've thought the same for awhile now. Yes the barbarian gets rage, yes CaGM is a great rage power for those of you with reckless abandon and spell sunder is in a league of it's own. But I think that people consistently underestimate the power of weapon training and weapon focus/specialization. Not to mention the gloves of dueling, which any fighter worth his salt is going to have as a top priority magic item.
I ran the numbers on this a while back.
Long and short of it is: No, the Fighter only surpasses the Barbarian at 20th, and maybe one or two other levels depending on circumstances.
Assuming the Fighter has access to his class specific items and Feats while the Barbarian does not have access to class specific items and Rage Powers means you're starting from a faulty foundation.
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Barbarian has Pounce and the ability to fly. Fighter DPR suffers if they have to move.
Barbarian has superstition for a massive boost to saves. Fighter has bravery for a mediocre boost to a small subset of will saves.
The problem is that on it's own, Weapon Training is more powerful than rage. But in practice, Rage powers are much more powerful than bonus feats + armor training.
There is also the out of combat utility discrepancy with the fighter getting less skills, being more vulnerable to traps, and not having access to Spell Sunder.
And outside of raw DPR, fighters can sometimes get neat tricks working earlier, while still having room for other investments.
For example, I could combine a nice reach build (power attack, combat reflexes, lunge), some serious debuffing (cornugon smash and riving strike; the latter needs arcane strike via SLA), the fighter feats (weapon focus, weapon specialization), and some patching options (iron will; maybe half elf for their various will save stuff), and I can get all that together by level 8.
While superstitious beast totem is nice, it isn't the only way to make a martial character that can contribute to the fight. The feats I mentioned above turns a fighter into a 25' circle of pain (particularly with a fortuitous weapon for a pseudo full attack with your AoO) that can also debuff enemy saves vs spells by -4. It also can have a will save on par with a melee cleric/inquisitor at that level.
Am I saying that a barbarian can't have something similar? No. I am just saying that there isn't only one way to play a martial. Being able to grab several options is of course nice. But Just because the role I choose to play isn't superstitious pouncing, it doesn't mean I am unable to play a vital role, or several vital roles, to the party.
Thank you for your quick responses.
I won't count raging flier as 'ability to fly'
Looking over the rage powers, and looking over the feats, I believe I am convinced. The fighter has room for some extra tricks (Cornugon Smash+Hurtful comes to mind) and can pull combinations that the barbarian can't pull in one character, but I am convinced that the barbarian pulls ahead.
I must admit that I was surprised to see the barbarian lead in Armor Class in that test.
I will attempt to check if a fighter archer can do better than a barbarian two-hander, but that is not really relevant to this discussion.
Hail the Barbarian, King of Two-handed weaponry, for he is Truly a Terror on the Battlefield! (and Much More Mighty than fighter wannabes)
Iemeres: I'm not asking for 'Viable party member?' here.
I'm asking 'Which will do more damage?'.
The answer seems indeed to be barbarian, and so I have my answer. Whether or not this implies that superstition+pounce barbarian means fighter has no reason to exist is not a question relevant to the topic of this thread.
Iemeres: I'm not asking for 'Viable party member?' here.
I'm asking 'Which will do more damage?'.
The answer seems indeed to be barbarian, and so I have my answer. Whether or not this implies that superstition+pounce barbarian means fighter has no reason to exist is not a question relevant to the topic of this thread.
Fair enough.
I will ask whether you accounted for the mutagenic warrior archetype. That one is interesting since it trades away armor training for the alchemist's mutagen and a few discoveries (including actual flight via the wings discovery, available at level 7).
Between weapon training, dueling gloves, and the strength boost from mutagens, they can compete a bit more for raw damage.
Note- they can grab the discoveries that improve mutagens, but at much later levels than normal; level 15 for greater mutagen, and level 19 for grand mutagen.
Overall, it is a fine option for a fighter. Even the loss of armor training is relatively minor, since the wings give you a 60(40) fly speed. So you can just enjoy the extra natural armor.