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So someone in my PFS group was thinking of running 'campaign mode' of one of the modules (details escape me ATM, it involves playing a 1-7 campaign, and getting 4 levels of PFS credit for it.) I was thinking of fun character concepts, and I came up with one based around feinting.
Here are my questions. 1) Does the feinting thing really work in PFS? Given that you suffer up to a -8 when feinting (if going up against, say an animal-intelligence aberration.), is the build viable?
2) Given that my aim is not only to have fun at the table, but also ensure that my friends at the table also have fun, does this bog down combat too much? If every full attack I have to roll a bluff check vs. the opponent's sense motive check, see if it succeeds, then attack, are the rest of the players (or even the GM) going to kill me for taking too much time?
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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If you are prepared it shouldn't bog things down any more than any other combat maneuver.
Feinting is not a combat maneuver.
This might seem like a nitpick, but feints and combat maneuvers are resolved very differently. On the player's end, they don't get to add attack buffs like bless or Inspire Courage to their feint. On the GM's end, they can't just glance down at the CMD in their statblock; they have to calculate a DC that has two different formulas (and the slower of the two to calculate, must always be calculated, because the other is only used if it's higher).
And unfortunately, "being prepared" only goes so far: you can calculate your Bluff score, and you can memorize the formulas that you need to recite to the GM, but there's nothing you can do to reduce the amount of time the GM has to spend calculating the DC, since they have to do that on their end.
So really, the time it takes has less to do with your preparation and more to do with how quick the GM is with doing math on the fly. :/
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2)....I wouldn't worry about time. Its really not much worse than a PC two weapon fighting.
1)Most people feint builds kind of use the feint part as a possibility not their only decent offensive capability...that being said i've seen PFS PCs with an outstanding bluff skill.
That being said, is there a cannon PFS legal item that adds to feinting? A magic item or a cloak or belt or Ioun stone or something? The build I have . . . kinda has a penalty to charisma. I see the mulberry pentacle ioun stone, but is there anything else (like the boots of elvenkind do for acrobatics?)
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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That being said, is there a cannon PFS legal item that adds to feinting? A magic item or a cloak or belt or Ioun stone or something? The build I have . . . kinda has a penalty to charisma. I see the mulberry pentacle ioun stone, but is there anything else (like the boots of elvenkind do for acrobatics?)2)....I wouldn't worry about time. Its really not much worse than a PC two weapon fighting.
1)Most people feint builds kind of use the feint part as a possibility not their only decent offensive capability...that being said i've seen PFS PCs with an outstanding bluff skill.
Headband of Ninjutsu for +2 feint (and reposition) and 1/day swift action feint.
Cape of Bravado gives +5 to feint (and +1 AC) but requires a hand.Mask of Stony Demeanor gives +10 to lying, +5 to feinting, –5 to passing secret messages, and has a bit of a reputation.
I have not verified legality in Additional Resources, and none of these are Core.
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That being said, is there a cannon PFS legal item that adds to feinting? A magic item or a cloak or belt or Ioun stone or something? The build I have . . . kinda has a penalty to charisma. I see the mulberry pentacle ioun stone, but is there anything else (like the boots of elvenkind do for acrobatics?)2)....I wouldn't worry about time. Its really not much worse than a PC two weapon fighting.
1)Most people feint builds kind of use the feint part as a possibility not their only decent offensive capability...that being said i've seen PFS PCs with an outstanding bluff skill.Headband of Ninjutsu for +2 feint (and reposition) and 1/day swift action feint.
Cape of Bravado gives +5 to feint (and +1 AC) but requires a hand.
Mask of Stony Demeanor gives +10 to lying, +5 to feinting, –5 to passing secret messages, and has a bit of a reputation.I have not verified legality in Additional Resources, and none of these are Core.
Well, I don't think I'll use the mask (I'm a thinking of playing a tengu, so I don't think it'll fit, LOL, plus it's broken as all get-out.) The headband would be nice, but I doubt I'll get 15000 in cash by level seven (while keeping up with my other gear), and as for the cloak, I don't know if it's PFS legal (archives doesn't say, though it SHOULD be according to additional resources) but it doesn't matter, as my design is a two weapon feinting build.
Tengu Swordsman (Slayer)
Str: 16, Dex: 16, Con: 12, Int: 14, Wis: 10, Chr: 8
Level 1 (Feat-Combat expertise)
Level 2 Ranger fighting style-TWF
Level 3 (Feat- Two weapon Feint)
Character concept: Character is attempting to discover the 'perfect' swordfighting style using the double-bladed sword. Uses his first attack to bluff, and then sneak attack+studied target on the second hit. Comes online at level 3. If he only has a single attack, he can two-hand his weapon for str+1/2 dmg. And because he's a Tengu, he's proficient in the double sword from level 1.
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I have a geisha assassin (brawler2/ninja5) that uses feint. I just roll two d20s and specify which one is the feint. she has a +14 to bluff, uses a fighting fan in her offhand and a wakizashi in her main hand. assuming I don't roll incredibly low, it's usually high enough to feint and get my sneak dice. it doesn't slow combat down hardly at all.
I don't even bother with the mask of stony demeanor. a successful feint only requires you beat (10 + BAB + WIS) or (10 + sense motive). with a good bluff check, this is rarely difficult.
it's a bit of a busted mechanic really, but it's a reliable way of getting sneak attack damage without a flanking partner, and it doesn't work on a lot of enemies at all so I don't feel bad about it.
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So really, the time it takes has less to do with your preparation and more to do with how quick the GM is with doing math on the fly. :/
For that reason, it's really helpful to the GM if, before the sessions starts, you give them a heads up that you intend to do a lot of feinting. It gives them the opportunity to go ahead and calculate those numbers while everyone's still getting settled.
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Circlet of Persuasion should give a +3 to feinting shouldn't it? and it's Core.
It would also help other CHA skill checks too....
I was always iffy on that one. It doesn't say 'skill checks' just 'checks.' and it doesn't follow the standard gold rule (otherwise It would cost a fortune, as it essentially adds +3 to diplomacy, bluff, intimidate, handle animal, etc.)
I THINK it just adds to checks using your charisma, such as a sorcerer/oracle's concentration check, or the opposed charisma check when you charm person someone. I could be entirely wrong though. My google-fu fails me and I can't find the errata if there is one.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Yeah, the Circlet is indeed unusually good. If you made it for any other ability score nobody'd be foolish enough to allow it.
That said, a feinting rogue might actually be an interesting CORE exercise. I mean, if we're out to prove that we're hardcore, might as well play a rogue...
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This should take up no more time than a Cornugon Smash Intimidate build. It's a similar DC calculation, and all that matters is that you succeed, not by how much.
Also, the OP mentioned concern about the opponent's Sense Motive check. That's not how it works. The GM doesn't roll anything. The DC is calculated as mentioned earlier in the thread. 10+HD+WIS modifier, or 10+Sense Motive bonus, whichever is higher. Generally that will be the first calculation.
EDIT: Since this is campaign mode, you could see if your GM will let you reflavor the Mask of Stony Demeanor to an actual Tengu mask. if the GM thinks it's overpowered, s/he can always increase the price, since it's campaign mode.
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I have a rogue that with a feint build. I used a combat trick as my 4th level rogue trick to get improved feint (non-human, 1st level weapon finesse, 3rd combat expertise). It generally only comes into play when I can't get a flank, so it's more of a cool feat. Depending on your build you could get it faster (human, or level of fighter, not a dex build).
5th level I picked up Gang-Up to further reduce my reliance on feinting. So from my perspective it's a nice trick to have but fairly situational. Worth the feat or two to make it a move action, but then I also like having the ability to get the AC boost from Combat Expertise. Still working on getting to the higher level stuff.
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Side note:
If you are playing the module in "campaign" mode, then, depending on what's decided for game rules, your PCs don't have to be PFS legal.
Campaign mode for that module (Dragon's Demand, I assume), means you can run it with "homebrew, rules and assign all the chronicles, at the end, to a PFS legal character(s).
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We recently played that module (unless there's another 1-7 module that gives 4 levels of credit) with Improved feint and Improved disarm focused rogue. He was quite effective. He used feint when he couldn't get into flank, and since he didn't get a second attack, using feint to get the sneak attack dice was a nice bonus.
Around level 5, he picked up a keen rapier, and he took Butterfly's Sting to pass crits over to the two-handed fighter.
Since we were playing with the same group every week, he and the fighter were able to pick up Outflank as a teamwork feat, and they were just devastating: the rogue crits, the fighter gets an AoO, then the rogue passes the crit over to the fighter...it took 1-2 rounds to get into position, but that sequence ended the toughest fights quickly.