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If you mean a modern fencing rapier, you have a point. If you mean a cut and thrust backsword, it would be capable of going through the cracks in armor joints. Although a dagger would be more suited, or better yet a warhammer/pick/mace.Exactly.
Some one forgets that shields are weapons, and this happens again.
You know what weapon I find ridiculous? The Rapier.
Hit a guy in Full Plate with a Rapier. See what happens.
The original game had a table for this, giving bonuses/penalties of different weapons vs armor class, but PFS has nothing like that.
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The original game had a table for this, giving bonuses/penalties of different weapons vs armor class, but PFS has nothing like that.If you mean a modern fencing rapier, you have a point. If you mean a cut and thrust backsword, it would be capable of going through the cracks in armor joints. Although a dagger would be more suited, or better yet a warhammer/pick/mace.Exactly.
Some one forgets that shields are weapons, and this happens again.
You know what weapon I find ridiculous? The Rapier.
Hit a guy in Full Plate with a Rapier. See what happens.
I remember. It added more realism, but it was scrapped in 2nd edition for good reason. You shouldn't have to consult a table every time you roll to hit.
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Much as I appreciate the semantic strawman being put forward; whether or not it's a weapon, a shield or an allegory for the futility of life it still has rules for it's use in it's description (in the Armour section for some strange unknown reason). Usually rules in the description should take precedence over it's appearance in the weapons table and the general weapon and armour rules. Unless...?
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Here in the description it clearly mentions that when used as a weapon it is a One Handed, Bludgeoning, Martial Weapon.
None of those qualifiers stop it from being used with two hands to gain 1.5 STR mod.
So unless that text includes a sentence that specifically says it can't be used with two hands, it can regardless of if you like it or not.
Which we have an example of looking at the Rapier which is also a one handed weapon.
"You can't wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage."
So until that drawback is added to the text of the Heavy Shield, two hand away for that 1.5 STR all day every day.
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Here in the description it clearly mentions that when used as a weapon it is a One Handed, Bludgeoning, Martial Weapon.
None of those qualifiers stop it from being used with two hands to gain 1.5 STR mod.
So unless that text includes a sentence that specifically says it can't be used with two hands, it can regardless of if you like it or not.
The text is not written that way. It's not written "when you shield bash, your shield is a one-handed martial bludgeoning weapon", but "For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon."
There's a difference. By my reading, a shield bash is like a "special attack" you must make with your shield (no joke!), and is calculated as a one-handed attack for feats and such.
I'll repeat it: I'm not against a 2-handed shield bash, it's not game breaking and all, but I'm still not convinced it's RAW.
FAQ ?
There's a difference. By my reading, a shield bash is like a "special attack" you must make with your shield (no joke!), and is calculated as a one-handed attack for feats and such.
I'll repeat it: I'm not against a 2-handed shield bash, it's not game breaking and all, but I'm still not convinced it's RAW.
The fact that a shield can explicitly be enchanted as a weapon in addition to as a shield seems to contradict that sentiment.
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A heavy shield is listed under one-handed martial weapons in the weapons table of the equipment chapter of the CRB. How is this even a question?
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In my opinion, the text of the shield clarifies that when used in a specific way (i.e. strapped on the arm and used to bash) it is considered a weapon. Used any other way it would be an improvised weapon.
This is similar in concept to using a longspear to make reach attacks (as intended) but adjusting to use it as an improvised weapon for adjacent attacks.
So you can two-hand a shield, but you are using it as an improvised weapon.
The fact that a shield can explicitly be enchanted as a weapon in addition to as a shield seems to contradict that sentiment.
Something specifically explained in the shield description of the armor section. I can even see it in favor of my reading.
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In my opinion, the text of the shield clarifies that when used in a specific way (i.e. strapped on the arm and used to bash) it is considered a weapon. Used any other way it would be an improvised weapon.
This is similar in concept to using a longspear to make reach attacks (as intended) but adjusting to use it as an improvised weapon for adjacent attacks.
So you can two-hand a shield, but you are using it as an improvised weapon.
Can you provide rules to back this up or are you just guessing?
Here are the facts.
A Heavy Shield is a weapon.
It is also a Martial weapon.
It is also a Bludgeoning weapon.
And finally it can be found in the ONE HANDED MARTIAL WEAPON CHART.
One Handed Weapons can be used with two hands to gain 1.5 STR.
Unless mentioned otherwise such as in the Rapier description.
If all of those things are true then you can 100% use a Heavy Shield in both hands to get 1.5 STR.
Anyone saying otherwise should provide a direct quote and not just an opinion on how they would do it in their game. This is a Rules Question not Homebrew/Suggestions.
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The rules as written (including the weapon table) clearly state that the shield is a one-handed weapon. The fact that it is strapped doesn't change that.
On a side note, I loathe the misinformed assumption in the game that all shields are strapped to the arm (about half were not). Only Aspis, heaters and kite shields were historically strapped. Viking round shields, most mongol shields, zulu hide shields, and roman scutums never were. Scottish targes were both strapped and unstrapped.
In my opinion, the text of the shield clarifies that when used in a specific way (i.e. strapped on the arm and used to bash) it is considered a weapon. Used any other way it would be an improvised weapon.
This is similar in concept to using a longspear to make reach attacks (as intended) but adjusting to use it as an improvised weapon for adjacent attacks.
So you can two-hand a shield, but you are using it as an improvised weapon.
Can you provide rules to back this up or are you just guessing?
As I said, the text on the shield clarifies explicitly how a shield is used to be considered a weapon. Either you choose to believe that it says what is says, or that that text is irrelevant and should have not been included. If you believe the text means something, the rest follows logically as I have outlined.
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As I said, the text on the shield clarifies explicitly how a shield is used to be considered a weapon. Either you choose to believe that it says what is says, or that that text is irrelevant and should have not been included. If you believe the text means something, the rest follows logically as I have outlined.In my opinion, the text of the shield clarifies that when used in a specific way (i.e. strapped on the arm and used to bash) it is considered a weapon. Used any other way it would be an improvised weapon.
This is similar in concept to using a longspear to make reach attacks (as intended) but adjusting to use it as an improvised weapon for adjacent attacks.
So you can two-hand a shield, but you are using it as an improvised weapon.
Can you provide rules to back this up or are you just guessing?
You're making a lot of assumptions to make your theory fit. And since the rapier spells out that you can't two-hand it, there seems no reason that the shield description wouldn't have also spelled it out if that was the intention.
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As I said, the text on the shield clarifies explicitly how a shield is used to be considered a weapon. Either you choose to believe that it says what is says, or that that text is irrelevant and should have not been included. If you believe the text means something, the rest follows logically as I have outlined.In my opinion, the text of the shield clarifies that when used in a specific way (i.e. strapped on the arm and used to bash) it is considered a weapon. Used any other way it would be an improvised weapon.
This is similar in concept to using a longspear to make reach attacks (as intended) but adjusting to use it as an improvised weapon for adjacent attacks.
So you can two-hand a shield, but you are using it as an improvised weapon.
Can you provide rules to back this up or are you just guessing?
Sorry but you still need to provide more than just your opinion.
Per RAW, it is strapped to the arm.
You have to hold a longsword by the handle to use it two handed, right?
You can't just grab it anywhere you like.
If the above is 100%, per RAW, wouldn't the other arm also need to be strapped to the shield?
I don't think that most of the shields that you mention as not being strapped are going to hold up to very many blows from a Great Axe.
I don't have any position on the 'legality' of using two hands. But to question it either way is not outside the realm of logical.
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We have no rules text that says you cannot two-hand it, and we do have rules text that says you can (albeit indirectly through its designation as a one-handed weapon). Since there is no rules contradiction, the only other fallback is the very-not-RAW "does it make sense". But there is no logical reason you should not be able to two-hand a heavy shield. So what reason is there to disallow it?
If you use a weapon cord on a great axe it is strapped to your arm now you can't use it two handed either.
Sorry but you still need to provide more than just your opinion.
Fair enough. However, to be useful I think we would have to be on the same page concerning this:
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Do you think it means anything at all, and if so what? If you don't believe it means anything, and that the existence of the heavy shield on the weapons table is all that matter, then we don't have anything to discuss.
If you use a weapon cord on a great axe it is strapped to your arm now you can't use it two handed either.
What? The use of a weapon cord has nothing to do with it. The WEAPON CORD is used that way, not the Great Axe.
There is no logic to your argument.
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Per RAW, it is strapped to the arm.
You have to hold a longsword by the handle to use it two handed, right?
You can't just grab it anywhere you like.
If the above is 100%, per RAW, wouldn't the other arm also need to be strapped to the shield?
I don't think that most of the shields that you mention as not being strapped are going to hold up to very many blows from a Great Axe.
I don't have any position on the 'legality' of using two hands. But to question it either way is not outside the realm of logical.
Nope. No rules govern wear you must hold a weapon to two hand it.
[As far as i know.]As for the Shield its as simply as using the arm that isn't strapped, to hold onto the shield, and help drive it into your foe.
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Sorry but you still need to provide more than just your opinion.Fair enough. However, to be useful I think we would have to be on the same page concerning this:
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Do you think it means anything at all, and if so what? If you don't believe it means anything, and that the existence of the heavy shield on the weapons table is all that matter, then we don't have anything to discuss.
This explains how a Heavy Shield functions.
So using this plus the fact that its listed on the weapon chart plain as day as a one handed weapon is all i need to use it with 2 hands to get a 1.5 STR.
One Handed Weapons can be used with both hands for 1.5 STR?
If this is true then i can use a heavy sheild for 1.5 STR in both hands.
But Brain, that is not following RAW.
I wasn't even trying to say that I think you need to strap both arms in. My point is that if you ONLY go by a strict reading of RAW to deduce that you can use two hands, that same strict reading of RAW states that it is used by strapping the shield to the arm.
Choking up on a long spear to bash straight out with it changes the entire type of weapon, the proficiency required, and the reach of the weapon. And those hands are still used on the part of the weapon that the weapon was designed for!
Again, I don't have a position in this debate. I just want to point out that the question is not a ridiculous one and that most of the "but this is the only way because..." statements that I have seen can be flipped 180 degrees.
Which is why I still don't have a position in this debate.
Sorry but you still need to provide more than just your opinion.Fair enough. However, to be useful I think we would have to be on the same page concerning this:
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Do you think it means anything at all, and if so what? If you don't believe it means anything, and that the existence of the heavy shield on the weapons table is all that matter, then we don't have anything to discuss.
This explains how a Heavy Shield functions.
So using this plus the fact that its listed on the weapon chart plain as day as a one handed weapon is all i need to use it with 2 hands to get a 1.5 STR.
One Handed Weapons can be used with both hands for 1.5 STR?
If this is true then i can use a heavy sheild for 1.5 STR in both hands.
So basically you think it means nothing. Used in this way to me explains that you are bashing with an item equipped as armor, not wielded as a weapon. You think a shield is just another weapon.
Given that perspective, you are correct. I disagree with the fundamental assumption, but other than the existence of the text that explains how a shield is used I have no further evidence.
Sorry but you still need to provide more than just your opinion.Fair enough. However, to be useful I think we would have to be on the same page concerning this:
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Do you think it means anything at all, and if so what? If you don't believe it means anything, and that the existence of the heavy shield on the weapons table is all that matter, then we don't have anything to discuss.
This explains how a Heavy Shield functions.
So using this plus the fact that its listed on the weapon chart plain as day as a one handed weapon is all i need to use it with 2 hands to get a 1.5 STR.
One Handed Weapons can be used with both hands for 1.5 STR?
If this is true then i can use a heavy sheild for 1.5 STR in both hands.
Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand?
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand?If this is true then you must strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your off-hand to gain 1.5 x Str.
See what I did there? I used your exact same logic against you in exactly the same fashion.
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Sorry but you still need to provide more than just your opinion.Fair enough. However, to be useful I think we would have to be on the same page concerning this:
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Do you think it means anything at all, and if so what? If you don't believe it means anything, and that the existence of the heavy shield on the weapons table is all that matter, then we don't have anything to discuss.
This explains how a Heavy Shield functions.
So using this plus the fact that its listed on the weapon chart plain as day as a one handed weapon is all i need to use it with 2 hands to get a 1.5 STR.
One Handed Weapons can be used with both hands for 1.5 STR?
If this is true then i can use a heavy sheild for 1.5 STR in both hands.Shield, Light; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand?
Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand?If this is true then you must strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your off-hand to gain 1.5 x Str.
See what I did there? I used your exact same logic against you in exactly the same fashion.
How?
A humanoid has two hands. Lets call them Hand 1 and Hand 2
In Hand 1 i strap a Heavy Shield to my forearm and hold it with Hand 1.
Then i use Hand 2 to grip the shield and gain 1.5 STR since its a one handed weapon.
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Sorry but you still need to provide more than just your opinion.Fair enough. However, to be useful I think we would have to be on the same page concerning this:
"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."
Do you think it means anything at all, and if so what? If you don't believe it means anything, and that the existence of the heavy shield on the weapons table is all that matter, then we don't have anything to discuss.
This explains how a Heavy Shield functions.
So using this plus the fact that its listed on the weapon chart plain as day as a one handed weapon is all i need to use it with 2 hands to get a 1.5 STR.
One Handed Weapons can be used with both hands for 1.5 STR?
If this is true then i can use a heavy sheild for 1.5 STR in both hands.So basically you think it means nothing. Used in this way to me explains that you are bashing with an item equipped as armor, not wielded as a weapon. You think a shield is just another weapon.
Given that perspective, you are correct. I disagree with the fundamental assumption, but other than the existence of the text that explains how a shield is used I have no further evidence.
No. It describes what happen with a shield since it is both a one handed weapon and a defensive item that grants a shield bonus.
Nothing in that description stops it from being a one handed weapon or calls out that it can't be used with 2 hands to gain 1.5 STR.
Once again see the description of Rapier. If a one handed weapon wasn't meant to be used with 2 hands it would say so.
And you are not using it correctly.
Again, the Long spear:
I hold it with two hands. I attack with it straight out, arms parallel, 90 degrees from my body, and parallel to the ground.
It is no longer a reach weapon.
It is no longer a simple weapon.
It is no longer a piercing weapon.
I am no longer proficient with it.
How? I used two hands. I just turned the weapon a few degrees from the "normal" use of the weapon and most likely reversed my grip on one hand.
Not strapping you hand in is not the "normal" use of the shield.
Again, I am only basing this on a strict reading of RAW, not what I think is 'correct'.
Oh look, It's this thread again.
The search tool is your friend, OP.
That topic ended in no definitive answer. I think it's ok to have a fresh topic THREE YEARS LATER and avoid necroposting.
And you are not using it correctly.
Again, the Long spear:
I hold it with two hands. I attack with it straight out, arms parallel, 90 degrees from my body, and parallel to the ground.
It is no longer a reach weapon.
It is no longer a simple weapon.
It is no longer a piercing weapon.
I am no longer proficient with it.How? I used two hands. I just turned the weapon a few degrees from the "normal" use of the weapon and most likely reversed my grip on one hand.
Not strapping you hand in is not the "normal" use of the shield.
Again, I am only basing this on a strict reading of RAW, not what I think is 'correct'.
Your Longspear example has nothing to do with rules or else you would provide a link or quote them. So as far as this goes i'll ignore them.
And yes to use a Heavy Shield you must strap it to your forearm and grip it with your hand. I understand that.
No where does it state that to use your second hand to gain 1.5 STR do you need to strap that hand in as well.
At this point i don't understand what it is your trying to say and it won't matter until you start using rules and stop using opinions.
Is a Shield a One handed Weapon? YES
Can i use One Handed Weapons with 2 hands to gain 1.5 str? YES
So can someone using the rules please explain to me why i can't use my Heavy Shield in 2 hands to get 1.5 STR?
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That topic ended in no definitive answer. I think it's ok to have a fresh topic THREE YEARS LATER and avoid necroposting.Oh look, It's this thread again.
The search tool is your friend, OP.
There is an easy answer - some just want to make things way more complicated than they are by trying to read more into things than there is.
Where in the rules does it suggest that the text saying a shield is strapped to your arm prevents it from being used two-handed?
If it couldn't be used two-handed, it would say so, like the rapier and the whip.
I apologize. I thought it was a well known rule that didn't need quoting.
I will get you that link in just a minute.
Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?
You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).
While this is clearly based on AoO's and not hands, it sets a precedent that the grip on a weapon does in fact matter. Notice how changing the grip affects the magic properties and the proficiency required.
Forgive me, I do not know how to link to the exact spot, but that should get you to the correct page.
That FAQ has nothing to do with shields or strapping it to arms.
Can I use my longspear to attack at both 10 feet and 5 feet? I know that the rules for reach weapons don't allow them to attack adjacent foes, but can I use the improvised weapon rules to say that the blunt end of my longspear resembles a club and use it to attack adjacent foes? I know that the improvised weapon rules say they are for objects not designed to be weapons, but the blunt end of my longspear was not designed to be a weapon, right?
You could choose to wield your longspear as an improvised blunt weapon. In this case, it threatens only your adjacent squares, and not the further squares. If you are wielding it as a longspear, though, to threaten the further squares, then your grip precludes the use as an improvised blunt weapon. The rules are silent on how long it would take to shift between the two, but switching between a one-handed and a two-handed grip with a one-handed weapon like a longsword is a free action (and can thus be only taken on your turn), so it should take at least as long as that, thus preventing you from simultaneously threatening all of the squares at once. Incidentally, using the longspear as an improvised weapon in this way would not allow you to benefit from any magical enhancements it may possess, nor would you add benefits that apply when attacking with a longspear (such as Weapon Focus (longspear), but you would apply any benefits from using an improvised weapon (such as Catch Off-Guard).
While this is clearly based on AoO's and not hands, it sets a precedent that the grip on a weapon does in fact matter. Notice how changing the grip affects the magic properties and the proficiency required.
Forgive me, I do not know how to link to the exact spot, but that should get you to the correct page.
What does any of that have to do with using a one handed weapon with 2 hands?
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What does any of that have to do with using a one handed weapon with 2 hands?
He's trying to infer that the vague mention of 'grip' should apply as a rule instead of just flavor text. (Grip wasn't even used to actually answer the question about the spear - it was just drawing a similarity between that and one/two-handing a sword.)
He's trying to infer that the vague mention of 'grip' in the question should apply as a rule instead of just flavor text.
What does any of that have to do with using a one handed weapon with 2 hands?
I know. I just wanted to see him explain it before i disproved it.
So it would seem we are right back to the same thing i've been saying then.
Is a Shield a One handed Weapon? YES
Can i use One Handed Weapons with 2 hands to gain 1.5 str? YES
So can someone using the rules please explain to me why i can't use my Heavy Shield in 2 hands to get 1.5 STR?
Also that FAQ is simply stating use improvised weapon rules when trying to use longspear outside it's regular use that it isn't already designed for (in the longspear's FAQ case: piercing and reach).
Heavy and light shields are in the close weapon group. They're on the martial weapons tables. They can be enchanted as weapons which doesn't support improvised weapons. They got written rules stating they're light (light shields) or one-handed (heavy shields) martial weapons when used as weapons (called "shield bash" because they need specific wording for such attacks for feats like Improved Shield Bash in order to throw more rules in). Nowhere in the rules states strapping the shield is required to bash with it. Folks claiming their ridiculous limitations on shield bash are simply spewing personal bias that's being thrown into rules-assumptions and claiming it as RAW.
This FAQ indicates that the grip on a weapon matters in some instances. Specifically, when you are using a reach weapon in a way that precludes its use in the fashion it was designed for. Because of the specificity of this rule, it cannot be generalized even to the most closely analogous case: using a non-reach weapon as an improvised weapon to deal a type of damage it's not designed to do, e.g. hitting with the pommel of a longsword to do bludgeoning damage. There is no way to make an direct connection between a grip on a reach weapon and a grip on a shield. At most, the grip situation suggests that it might matter, and would provide some precedent if the developers decided to institute a rule that further restricted the use of a shield as a one-handed weapon. But make no mistake -- this would be a new rule, along the lines of when they nerfed Crane wing, not a clarification of an existing one where they say "it's always been that way, we just weren't clear".
I know. I just wanted to see him explain it before i disproved it.
So it would seem we are right back to the same thing i've been saying then.
Is a Shield a One handed Weapon? YES
Can i use One Handed Weapons with 2 hands to gain 1.5 str? YESSo can someone using the rules please explain to me why i can't use my Heavy Shield in 2 hands to get 1.5 STR?
Let me try to explain it using your questions.
Is the shield a one handed weapon? Yes, when it is equipped as armor and used to sheild bash.
Can i use One Handed Weapons with 2 hands to gain 1.5 str? YES
So can someone using the rules please explain to me why i can't use my Heavy Shield in 2 hands to get 1.5 STR? If you are holding your shield in both hands, it is no longer equipped as armor, you are no longer performing a shield bash, therefore it is no longer a weapon, and it would have to be used as an improvised weapon.
Clearly, this only matters if you think the text on how a shield can be used as a weapon is a rule rather than just fluff text. I think it is a rule. Others seem not to.
My point is that using a weapon in a manner that it was not designed to be used in has a rules precedent that it changes much of how the weapon works.
Shields state that they are strapped to an arm.
By a strict reading of RAW, the second arm must also be strapped to the shield to receive the 1.5 x Str mod.
When I was told that grip does not matter, I referenced the Longspear and how per the FAQ, grip matters.
Again, I am not advocating strapping both arms to the shield. I am pointing out that it can be considered a valid question as the grip on a weapon changes the properties of a weapon.
Just holding it in two hands does not work. It must be held properly, as evidenced by the fact that someone "choking up" on a longspear cannot use the magic, reach, feat, or proficiency properties of that weapon, per RAW.
That specific FAQ doesn't have bearing because it involves using a weapon in a matter that violates how you can use that weapon.
It would have more to do with using a crossbow as a melee weapon than it does using an one handed weapon with two hands to get 1.5 strength bonus with it which is already specifically and explicitly allowed by the rules.
So Summary:
FAQ: How to use a weapon in a manner you cannot use it at all (a reach weapon within the area it cannot attack).
The question in this thread: Can I use an one-handed weapon with two hands in order to get 1.5 strength bonus?
The answer to the question in this thread: Yes, unless the weapon in question specifically states you cannot, for example the rapier.
As to the 'problem' of how the weapon is used by the one hand doesn't acually exist as a problem because the weapon does not state you cannot use it in accordance with the rules for the class of weapon it is (namely, one handed, bludgeoning, martial).
EDIT:
You really want to have fun? Go two hand a whip, or a Scizore.
I know. I just wanted to see him explain it before i disproved it.
So it would seem we are right back to the same thing i've been saying then.
Is a Shield a One handed Weapon? YES
Can i use One Handed Weapons with 2 hands to gain 1.5 str? YESSo can someone using the rules please explain to me why i can't use my Heavy Shield in 2 hands to get 1.5 STR?
Let me try to explain it using your questions.
Is the shield a one handed weapon? Yes, when it is equipped as armor and used to sheild bash.
Can i use One Handed Weapons with 2 hands to gain 1.5 str? YES
So can someone using the rules please explain to me why i can't use my Heavy Shield in 2 hands to get 1.5 STR? If you are holding your shield in both hands, it is no longer equipped as armor, you are no longer performing a shield bash, therefore it is no longer a weapon, and it would have to be used as an improvised weapon.Clearly, this only matters if you think the text on how a shield can be used as a weapon is a rule rather than just fluff text. I think it is a rule. Others seem not to.
Where exactly does it mention, "If you are holding your shield in both hands, it is no longer equipped as armor, you are no longer performing a shield bash, therefore it is no longer a weapon, and it would have to be used as an improvised weapon."
Is that a quote from he rules or is this once again your opinion where it doesn't belong. [Seeing as this is a RULES QUESTION]
My point is that using a weapon in a manner that it was not designed to be used in has a rules precedent that it changes much of how the weapon works.
Shields state that they are strapped to an arm.
By a strict reading of RAW, the second arm must also be strapped to the shield to receive the 1.5 x Str mod.
When I was told that grip does not matter, I referenced the Longspear and how per the FAQ, grip matters.
Again, I am not advocating strapping both arms to the shield. I am pointing out that it can be considered a valid question as the grip on a weapon changes the properties of a weapon.
Just holding it in two hands does not work. It must be held properly, as evidenced by the fact that someone "choking up" on a longspear cannot use the magic, reach, feat, or proficiency properties of that weapon, per RAW.
Nope.
It doesn't state that at all in the rules. You are the one saying that and it is quite false.
You see i've backed up my argument with rules.
All the rules you have quoted have nothing to do with the situation at hand. [With or with out straps.]
I guess "nope" is about a good of a debate tactic that one can expect on these forums anymore.
I guess "nope" is about a good of a debate tactic that one can expect on these forums anymore.
I guess about as good as quoting random rules and claiming false things.
I'm not trying to be a jerk but every thing you have said concerning this either hasn't had anything to do with it or isn't back up by the rules. Your just using your opinions and claiming your right.
I guess "nope" is about a good of a debate tactic that one can expect on these forums anymore.
How about:
Explain why I can't two hand a shield, but I can two hand a whip, or a Scizore?
I've already pointed out that the use of the FAQ is invalid, and that there is nothing in the weapon description stating you cannot use the shield two handed.
You need specific language to deny the use of something in the way the rules allow.
You do not have that specific language.
I guess "nope" is about a good of a debate tactic that one can expect on these forums anymore.How about:
Explain why I can't two hand a shield, but I can two hand a whip, or a Scizore?
Because "reasons".
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Alright guys, this conversation's over. No new points are being added here, so anyone who isn't already convinced will not be.
That said, I have some suspicions about the nature of the rebuttal against two-handing a shield...
"A fire is started 'pon word of 'RAW'
But those on fire can't seem to see
My added words make fire burn higher
Every word increasing my glee
What am I?"
Flaming Troll?