Why is the Traits Web Enhancement incomplete?


Pathfinder Society

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Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I've known about this for a while, but just re-realized it when I wanted to give my Core Cleric of Abadar the "Eyes and Ears of the City" Trait (normally found in the APG).

The Traits Web Enhancement is mostly a reprint of the APG rules that introduced Traits. It explains what the different categories are, and lists a small selection of them.

But, despite categorizing Race, Region, and Religion Traits, it doesn't have any. Campaign Traits are missing, too, but that I can understand.

Why is the Traits Web Enhancement incomplete?

Is it possible we can get it updated with the entire listing found in the APG?

Seems now is the perfect time to do so.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

The Traits document came first, I believe, originally printed in the Player's Guide to Second Darkness. The list of traits was expanded for the Advanced Players Guide (as well as several other sources) afterwards.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Captain, Texas—Waco

Chris is correct. The Second Darkness Player's Guide, which was published under 3.5 rules in 2008, the year before the Pathfinder Core Rulebook was ever released (to say nothing of the APG in 2010), introduces the concept of traits and has the first list of Basic Traits, plus some AP-specific Campaign Traits.

The next AP that was released, Legacy of Fire, was also under the 3.5 ruleset. The Legacy of Fire Player's Guide has a single paragraph about Basic Traits and refers the reader to the online web supplement, then goes on to list a variety of Region, Race, and Campaign Traits specific to adventuring in Katapesh.

TL;DR: The Basic Traits online web supplement predates the Core Rulebook by months and the APG by over a year.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Is it possible to get it updated to include the APG Traits? Or at least the 3 missing categories?

I mean, it's strange that Adopted is listed, and yet no Race Traits are.

Or, if it's not possible to update that particular document, could a reprint of the APG pages simply be uploaded as a separate document, instead?

Would be nice if Core characters could pick Religion Traits for their chosen deity.

Silver Crusade 5/5 5/5 **

It would also be trivially possible to just point to the APG prd traits page. Its a separate page with its own link.

In fact, it took me longer to find the older legal page :-). Had to go through the PFS blog link to find it.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

For the core campaign's sake though, updating the document to include some race traits to take along with adopted. And the same with any other missing traits that would be appropriate.

Dark Archive *

you can't take "rich parents" either, what's the big deal that "adopted" doesn't work?

I'd love to see the "of the society" traits added personally, but understand why they're not.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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melferburque wrote:
you can't take "rich parents" either, what's the big deal that "adopted" doesn't work?

There's a difference between "this option is banned" and "it's legal for you to take an option that literally has no effect".

And that's besides the fact that it's pretty weird to have the trait selection rules center around categories, and then not even have all the categories available.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Core should just not use the web enhancement, and print all of the traits that they want to be legal in the guide. That way they can add a few traits from the Primer.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

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I wouldn't be surprised if the next GtOP has traits listed and they deep-six the Traits WebDoc for good.

Grand Lodge 3/5

I doubt the "of the Society" traits would appear, as with any deity specific traits, as I don't think they are under the OGL, the deities and factions being Paizo specific.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Kovok wrote:
I doubt the "of the Society" traits would appear, as with any deity specific traits, as I don't think they are under the OGL, the deities and factions being Paizo specific.

Why would it matter if they are OGL or paizo? It is Paizo's GtOP.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/55/5 **

Pathfinder Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The Traits web Enhancement is OGL, so anything published in it BECOMES OGL. Paizo wants to protect its IP so will not publish non-OGL material in an all OGL supplement.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Tim Statler wrote:
The Traits web Enhancement is OGL, so anything published in it BECOMES OGL. Paizo wants to protect its IP so will not publish non-OGL material in an all OGL supplement.

That doesn't explain the removal of Regional Traits, though.

The Regional Traits in the APG are for generic regions like "Mountains" and "Savannah".

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Nefreet, the regional traits weren't "removed" from the Traits document. They were never there to begin with.

By the nature of the Core Mode, there are going to be elements of the game that leave holes in the environment.

Grand Lodge 3/5

What Tim said.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So, is the Pathfinder Society Guide to Organized Play OGL? If not they could just put the traits in there. This will of cause add them to normal PFS with out the need for the book they are from. So, that could be a downside to them.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Chris Mortika wrote:

Nefreet, the regional traits weren't "removed" from the Traits document. They were never there to begin with.

By the nature of the Core Mode, there are going to be elements of the game that leave holes in the environment.

But, they had to have been at one point, in a previous printing.

They're quite literally described in their own section.

You don't just type up a document, and define something, for no reason.

And, the Adopted Trait is still there.

That suggests the Race Traits were removed.

Silver Crusade 2/5

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In the Second Darkness Players Guide (the first place traits are mentioned) it does mention race, region, and religion, but when it does it states that these types of traits will be in upcoming player companions (like the elf companion, the varisian companion, and the faiths of good companion.)

Edit:

Second Darkness Player's Guide wrote:
There are five types of Character Traits to choose from, although at the time of this book’s printing, only two (Basic and Campaign) are available; these traits are described on pages 11–15. The other three categories (race, religion, regional) of traits are listed below—expect to see traits from these categories in future Pathfinder Companions!

Bolded my addition as I didn't want to copy and paste the example sections.

4/5 *

Race taits have never been in the trait document as far as I can remember... They did refer to them since they had already started putting traits into players companions (or were about to). The doc suggests that if you don't have a book with race traits, then don't take adopted.

4/5 ****

I found an old copy of the traits pdf on my old laptop. Identical to a fresh download.

Taking a look at the document

"Basic Traits: There are a total of 40 basic traits—ten each, split among the categories of Combat, Faith, Magic, and Social."

It defines the other trait types but doesn't provide any of them.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Alrighty then.

So, time for an update?

Shadow Lodge 4/5

No, Nefreet. It's not. They may have a plan to allow more content (though with the move to cut content back to the bare bones I'm not sure why they would) but I'm certain it doesn't involve revising a supplementg that predates the core rulebook.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Nefreet wrote:

Alrighty then.

So, time for an update?

The update was the Advanced Players Guide. Which largely made the web supplement obsolete. Except for those players who did not want to purchase the Advanced Players Guide. Then they still had a source for traits.

The web supplement is allowed in the Core Campaign, so that Core characters can actually have two traits.

But there is no need for an update.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

There was no need for an update.

There is some need for it now, because otherwise you're not getting Race and Religion traits in CORE.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Less options is what core is about. We don't need those other trait options.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Andrew,

In general, I agree with you. 95% of the suggestions that this or that should be added to the Core ruleset, I'd agree should be left out.

But that's not to say that the current restriction level is perfect. A more robust set of traits strikes me as the same sort of thing as regional languages. It's a part of the setting environment that should be available in Core Mode.

Why? Because when the PFS rules began at the beginning of Season 1, there were already race traits through the Elves of Golarion book. Likewise, religion traits were already intended. The Traits document updated the original traits from the fourth AP into the PFS ruleset, but didn't reprint the ones from race books, perhaps because the race series was still in production.

We don't need a full suite of trait options, but then we don't need traits at all. The better question is: would the Core Mode environment benefit from a more robust set of traits? I would like to see the Traits Document expanded to include two or three race traits for each of the seven core races and one or two religion traits for each of the Big 20 gods.

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Chris Mortika wrote:
I would like to see the Traits Document expanded to include two or three race traits for each of the seven core races and one or two religion traits for each of the Big 20 gods.

Yes, please.

Grand Lodge 2/5 RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Either that, or remove traits from the CoreCam altogether. But this sort of "halfsies" setup is kinda weird. :/

Silver Crusade 5/5

I think adding traits for the religions might be going a bit far, but the race traits from the APG would be nice.

2/5

I think of traits as core to the concept of Pathfinder. Therefore I do find it odd that two of the trait categories (acknowledging that there are a couple of smaller more niche trait categories developed since then) are absent from the Traits access in Core Campaign.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

The Fox wrote:
Chris Mortika wrote:
I would like to see the Traits Document expanded to include two or three race traits for each of the seven core races and one or two religion traits for each of the Big 20 gods.
Yes, please.

The APG has 15 Religion Traits, 2 Race Traits for each race, and 7 generic Regional Traits.

It also has 7 Campaign Traits, but I think we can all agree that those should still be excluded.

Let's take a poll!

"Like" the option below that you agree most with:

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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YES!

I am in favor of opening up the Core Campaign to include all of the Character Trait options from the Advanced Player's Guide.

(minus the Campaign Traits and any already illegal Traits such as Rich Parents)

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/55/5 ***

17 people marked this as a favorite.

NO!

I do not favor more material being added to the Core Campaign. The current Pathfinder Character Traits Web Enhancement is fine as is.

1/5 **

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Is there a third choice?

I think I would prefer they put all the APG traits (with the exception of the campaign traits) in the Web Enhancement. But I think anything legal for the Core Campaign has to be in the Web Enhancement; Core should not depend on the APG.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

That would still fall under the "Yes" option.

Whether they end up in a new Web Enhancement, or the Guide, or we just use the APG, that still means they're being included.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

The traits in the GtOP are legal, right? The faction ones?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Indeed.

Right now, available Traits are scattered between two documents.

Sovereign Court 2/5

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I like the idea of either a) updating the old Traits Wed Enhancement to represent all categories of traits, b) creating a new "Core Traits" Web Enhancement that is a little more complete, or c) just adding the Core traits to the Pathfinder Society Guide, like WAY back in the beginning of Season 0 when you got a bonus feat from the Guide depending on your faction, and dropping the Web Enhancement all together. "C" seems like the tidiest option.

But having only some trait categories represented and dead-ends like Adopted seems weird. I guess my choice "D" would be to just drop traits from Core altogether.

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Mosaic, if we do that, then the set of "characters legal in Core Mode" would stop being a subset of "characters legal in Standard Mode," because Core characters wouldn't have traits, which standard PFS characters are required to have.

Liberty's Edge 2/5

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I would like the Society traits added at the very least, I think those are fitting.

Though I would love to see all of the "of the Society" traits moved to "Campaign" traits as that see a likely place for them.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Then, I don't see what the issue is.

There are plenty to choose from for the purposes of the Core Campaign.

If you want more traits, play Classic.

Scarab Sages

I would like the race and religion traits added from the APG. It's two more categories of traits that give more options for roleplaying, without being overpowering, since everyone is still going to be taking reactionary and a magic trait.

4/5 *

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Not having the trait does not remove the option for roleplaying - it merely removes any mechanical benefit.

Liberty's Edge 4/5

Imbicatus wrote:
I would like the race and religion traits added from the APG. It's two more categories of traits that give more options for roleplaying, without being overpowering, since everyone is still going to be taking reactionary and a magic trait.

Hmmm. Traits, traits, traits.

Nope, I don't have any trait on me named Reactionary.
And I don't think either of them is a Magic trait. Could be wrong, there aren't that many choices.

IIRC, my traits add to a couple of my saves...

Liberty's Edge 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville

Thus far, both of my Core Characters has a trait from the faction section of the Guide to Society Play.

I think that Adopted will just not be a viable choice in Core Mode, simply because of the way Race(Racial?) Traits were put out among various Campanion books. Ultimate Campaign has reprinted some of them, making it so that Race Traits no longer have a second category (Of one of the four basic ones) attached to them.

In the regular campaign, it allowed me to take Adopted (Gnome) and Etymologist (Sp?) as a Tengu.

I believe that in Core, having the Traits as is will be enough, being able to get Race Traits in regular Society can be an incentive to play the regular campaign.

Sovereign Court 1/5

How about they update; create a new document. Perhaps create a "PFS Core Campaign Traits Document"

This way, there's a comprehensive list of legal traits from the various sources people are asking for. No clutter, No questions. What you see is what you get.

4/5 *

I doubt that putting existing things into a single document for player convenience rates high on the list for the designers at Paizo... I'd rather see people just look it up and have Paizo spend more time on new content.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Adopted gnome etymologist doesn't work, because both adopted and etymologyst are social traits.

Sovereign Court 1/5

GM Lamplighter wrote:
I doubt that putting existing things into a single document for player convenience rates high on the list for the designers at Paizo... I'd rather see people just look it up and have Paizo spend more time on new content.

It cool. My suggestion was just a fly-by idea.

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