Skirmishes


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Goblin Squad Member

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TEO and Golgotha had a merry time chasing each other around tonight, fighting for fun.

However.

Several things became *very* apparent. Energizing field is a must have for PvP, as otherwise people can get clear, heal, and come straight back in. That is not fun in the least.

Targeting. There were an *incessant* stream of obscenities about the lack of targeting and the fact that all we could do was try desperately to click something.

PvP could be a lot of fun, and I'd like to thank Golgotha for an instructive experience that was both fun and frustrating. I'd like to think that PvP will get far better soon, and I look forward to future skirmishes! Thanks again to Phyllain, Tink, and Flynn Something-Or-Other.

Goblin Squad Member

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I say again, that if an ability is so strong that it is "mandatory", it is to strong.

Goblin Squad Member

Haha, no thank you to Tigari, sucks to be you!

Goblin Squad Member

Only one of use was using E.F, and he was running around on his own most of the time because his rep quickly got -2500. And why no call out for me :O

EDIT: Guess I'm just that good of an assassin :D

Goblin Squad Member

We had a great time. Sorry to hear about the targeting difficulties. We would have aggressed more at the end but we had spent our rep earlier in the night.

Goblin Squad Member

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Targeting really needs to be fixed. As the defender, I was just fine; the attacker always has the red flag and so they can be tab targeted. When we were on the attack it was way more difficult; click targeting is impossible.

Opportunity also really needs fixed. A lot of CC depends on it being up when it should be. Charging someone and not getting the immobilize is really frustrating.

Speed boosts are OP.

Goblin Squad Member

I couldn't ever target you Tigari, I assume you were the tall elf in blue doing his best bunny rabbit impression?

Goblin Squad Member

Yep. being in Light Armor I was targeted alot.

Goblin Squad Member

I could target most of you fine, as you all know, the two issues that though were the EF Buff being OP (it gives 6 different buffs, as well as a Tier 2 buff, for 12 seconds), as well as for some reason, my entire bar grayed out as if I wasn't in combat. I know Phyllain had the same latter issue, just everything grayed out and not able to do anything at all.

I got a few solid kills, but I died around 4-5 times.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Cheatle wrote:
my entire bar grayed out as if I wasn't in combat. I know Phyllain had the same latter issue, just everything grayed out and not able to do anything at all.

We've run into the same problem as well.

Sounds like you all still had a lot of fun. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Not for much longer. Thorn guard are going to start working soon so the only source of reliable PvP will dry up.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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Fighting in town is the only reliable source of PVP? If that's true, then WoT isn't doing its job at all. Maybe the change allowing defenders to always subtract capture points will make WoT a more reliable source of PVP, since defending should become a viable option.

Goblin Squad Member

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KarlBob wrote:
Fighting in town is the only reliable source of PVP? If that's true, then WoT isn't doing its job at all. Maybe the change allowing defenders to always subtract capture points will make WoT a more reliable source of PVP, since defending should become a viable option.

My observation of in town PvP so far is it consists mainly of:

- targeting AFK players
- targeting players standing at craft stations
- targeting newly logged in players during the 20 seconds they are visible in game to others but have no game interface themselves

combined with a lot of running away :D

Though a few in my settlement have reported a new tactic they observed in starter towns. Apparently the trick is to claim someone is attacking and then you all run after the "attacker" and then if you sucker any new players into joining the "chase" you all turn around and kill them once they leave the settlement hex. Rather clever work around for the no-PvP in starter town rule.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

A pretty slick trick indeed.

Goblin Squad Member

Neadenil Edam wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
Fighting in town is the only reliable source of PVP? If that's true, then WoT isn't doing its job at all. Maybe the change allowing defenders to always subtract capture points will make WoT a more reliable source of PVP, since defending should become a viable option.

My observation of in town PvP so far is it consists mainly of:

- targeting AFK players
- targeting players standing at craft stations
- targeting newly logged in players during the 20 seconds they are visible in game to others but have no game interface themselves

combined with a lot of running away :D

This is what I've seen when it comes to PvP in towns. There are certain players that do that in Keeper's Pass and I know of at least one that logs out so he isn't attacked back. There is nothing 'meaningful' about that PvP.

Goblin Squad Member

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It's threads like that that make me glad I live in a small settlement and play in off hours. Not being safe in town seems like a chore.

Goblin Squad Member

I can only speak for myself. When I am down in Brighthaven and Keepers Pass we kill one afk bank zombie to start a fight and then spend a while running around the town fighting. The only time we run is when we are outnumbered two to one. We can't get people to come out and fight at towers so we come in after you and then laugh when I get whispered about being a coward when I run from eight people when I only brought three friends.

Goblin Squad Member

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Maybe that is because people don't want to fight you so that you're entertained. Do you not realize how selfish that is? Things like that is why I can't stand most PvPers. They are just like the kid that will run up on the play ground and kick the other kids sandcastle and stand there daring them to do something about it.

Goblin Squad Member

Jakaal wrote:
Maybe that is because people don't want to fight you so that you're entertained. Do you not realize how selfish that is? Things like that is why I can't stand most PvPers. They are just like the kid that will run up on the play ground and kick the other kids sandcastle and stand there daring them to do something about it.

How does this narrative change if we consider that the only reason these sandcastles exist at all is to get kicked?

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:
Jakaal wrote:
Maybe that is because people don't want to fight you so that you're entertained. Do you not realize how selfish that is? Things like that is why I can't stand most PvPers. They are just like the kid that will run up on the play ground and kick the other kids sandcastle and stand there daring them to do something about it.
How does this narrative change if we consider that the only reason these sandcastles exist at all is to get kicked?

There are all kinds of invalid assumptions we can make about anything in life, one of which is the notion that "open world PvP" exclusively means fighting each other.

Goblin Squad Member

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...

So you're trying to say you can be a-holes b/c the game exists for you to be a-holes in?

Push the bounds past acceptable social behavior and then wonder why no one wants to play with you other than other a-holes that think the same.

That is why every PvP centered game are small niche pits of scum and vitriol.

PFO can work if PvPers can learn to understand PvEers can deal with PvP if it is on their terms or they are taking actions that are putting them at risk. Standing in town should not be risky. Attacking crafters or "bank zombies" is LESS interaction than the killing of mobs you claim to hate. It elicits a response b/c you're being an a-hole not from any desire to PvP. No one likes a-holes other than a-holes.

Goblin Squad Member

Jakaal wrote:

...

So you're trying to say you can be a-holes b/c the game exists for you to be a-holes in?

Push the bounds past acceptable social behavior and then wonder why no one wants to play with you other than other a-holes that think the same.

That is why every PvP centered game are small niche pits of scum and vitriol.

PFO can work if PvPers can learn to understand PvEers can deal with PvP if it is on their terms or they are taking actions that are putting them at risk. Standing in town should not be risky. Attacking crafters or "bank zombies" is LESS interaction than the killing of mobs you claim to hate. It elicits a response b/c you're being an a-hole not from any desire to PvP. No one likes a-holes other than a-holes.

Well put, and well said

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:
Jakaal wrote:
Maybe that is because people don't want to fight you so that you're entertained. Do you not realize how selfish that is? Things like that is why I can't stand most PvPers. They are just like the kid that will run up on the play ground and kick the other kids sandcastle and stand there daring them to do something about it.
How does this narrative change if we consider that the only reason these sandcastles exist at all is to get kicked?

So, are you saying the only reason the 20-second log-in window exists only to allow others to kill your toon? Or that bank access exists only to allow others to attack your toon? Crafting only exists to allow others to attack? Really?

-Doomn


Crafters are legitimate targets. Or are you seriously suggesting they aren't providing opposing PvPers with gear?

Bank zombies, and other longterm AFKers are usually trying to regain lost rep, and have thus already been involved in unsanctioned PvP and are regaining rep in a mildly cheesy way. So, what's so noble about them that they should be untouchable?

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:

Crafters are legitimate targets. Or are you seriously suggesting they aren't providing opposing PvPers with gear?

Bank zombies, and other longterm AFKers are usually trying to regain lost rep, and have thus already been involved in unsanctioned PvP and are regaining rep in a mildly cheesy way. So, what's so noble about them that they should be untouchable?

Not that you don't have some valid points, but sometimes, AFKers have been called away in a hurry to help their disabled spouse, among about a thousand other possible reasons.

Goblin Squad Member

Sandcastles != PFO. Sandcastles = towers.

The core of Phyllain's post was "We can't get people to come out and fight at towers".

Of course I don't think and did not mean to imply that the purpose of PFO is PVP. What I meant was that the purpose of the War of Towers is PVP, and that it's not at all selfish to want that purpose to be fulfilled.

Goblin Squad Member

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I think Jakaal's complaint is about "collateral damage."

There are plenty of people who don't care about the war of towers, and if they could opt out, they would, even if it meant capping training until there are more meaningful mechanism. Unfortunately for those that want to test their combat skills against other players, there aren't a lot of options. Still I think most of us can agree that killing crafters and afk bank folks, while it might be denying your "enemy" resources, isn't much of a test. And it's probably hurting casual gamers interest a lot more than it's hurting "enemies."

Goblin Squad Member

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Well for one Settlement warfare isn't really a thing yet so no crafters are NOT legitimate targets, thus the next build is ramping up the Thornguards to put a stop to that crap.

AFK rep gaining is another issue, and is why you see threads asking for ways to combat that issue. Allowing PvP kills in town is not it.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Guurzak wrote:

Sandcastles != PFO. Sandcastles = towers.

The core of Phyllain's post was "We can't get people to come out and fight at towers".

Of course I don't think and did not mean to imply that the purpose of PFO is PVP. What I meant was that the purpose of the War of Towers is PVP, and that it's not at all selfish to want that purpose to be fulfilled.

Agreed, however coming into town and killing AFK players b/c you can't find people out amongst the towers it what I was calling selfish. Sorry for the disconnect.

Goblin Squad Member

Gol Phyllain wrote:
I can only speak for myself. When I am down in Brighthaven and Keepers Pass we kill one afk bank zombie to start a fight and then spend a while running around the town fighting. The only time we run is when we are outnumbered two to one. We can't get people to come out and fight at towers so we come in after you and then laugh when I get whispered about being a coward when I run from eight people when I only brought three friends.

I'll vouch for that. Golgotha's raids have been mostly legit attempts to generate PvP. That said, the towns are not supposed to be PvP zones until you can actually raze the towns. I'm in favor of the mechanics changes as GW continues to fine tune the system into funneling the PvP the game is designed to have.

Goblin Squad Member

Jakaal wrote:
Gol Guurzak wrote:

Sandcastles != PFO. Sandcastles = towers.

The core of Phyllain's post was "We can't get people to come out and fight at towers".

Of course I don't think and did not mean to imply that the purpose of PFO is PVP. What I meant was that the purpose of the War of Towers is PVP, and that it's not at all selfish to want that purpose to be fulfilled.

Agreed, however coming into town and killing AFK players b/c you can't find people out amongst the towers it what I was calling selfish. Sorry for the disconnect.

It will be a process for GW to get the systems right so we behave as intended. But generally speaking, we want more tower PvP, gathering far from your home base should be dangerous, and settlements should be safe sans random lunatics who get squashed by Thornguards.

Naturally this patch or that patch will have part of that equation out of wack, but that's the goal.


Zef Starr wrote:
That said, the towns are not supposed to be PvP zones until you can actually raze the towns.

Is there a dev quote indicating this?

Is my only ability to wage strategic warfare, intended to be killing the gatherers before they get to town? Because, technically that isn't strategic warfare, it's interdiction.

I'd like to see the dev posts indicating that. While I love PvP, I have accounts that I've been saving for future uses that would be more likely to be crafters if crafting is supposed to be completely safe and out of reach of PvP.

I don't want such a system, but in the adapt or die world of gaming I'll happily cheese the heck out of it to provide armaments to the poor saps who ARE vulnerable to attack.


Jakaal wrote:


AFK rep gaining is another issue, and is why you see threads asking for ways to combat that issue. Allowing PvP kills in town is not it.

The crowdforging for that issue definitely DOES include PvP as a solution (combined with things like not returning to life until you press a button, and not gaining rep while you remain dead).

If you mean that isn't your PERSONAL choice, then fine, but PvP was actually fairly popular as part of the way to deal with AFK rep gain.

Goblin Squad Member

Savage Grace wrote:
Jakaal wrote:


AFK rep gaining is another issue, and is why you see threads asking for ways to combat that issue. Allowing PvP kills in town is not it.

The crowdforging for that issue definitely DOES include PvP as a solution (combined with things like not returning to life until you press a button, and not gaining rep while you remain dead).

If you mean that isn't your PERSONAL choice, then fine, but PvP was actually fairly popular as part of the way to deal with AFK rep gain.

Your assumption that most AFK people are rep gaining is not true. At least not for Keeper's Pass and Phaeros. I personally have not been below 5k Rep because I usually let the enemy get one free shot on me first. As for Crafters that are AFK, they don't fight so they don't lose Rep to gain back. For most people that are in Keeper's Pass they won't have bad reps.


Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V wrote:


Your assumption that most AFK people are rep gaining is not true. At least not for Keeper's Pass and Phaeros. I personally have not been below 5k Rep because I usually let the enemy get one free shot on me first. As for Crafters that are AFK, they don't fight so they don't lose Rep to gain back. For most people that are in Keeper's Pass they won't have bad reps.

Unfortunately, there is no way for either of us to prove the other wrong.

Heck, your own mates might be HIDING their low rep just to fit in at K.P. ;-)

Goblin Squad Member

I doubt a single person is gaining rep in KP.

PvP in settlements is suppose to be legitimate, but it can't be at the moment, because the tech isn't in yet.

We have to have player built towns, we have to have PoIs to increase our windows, so that some towns have less guards, and we have to the mechanics to set our guards to kill X Settlement/Company/Player. Once all of this tech is in, PvPing like you are currently doing is legitimate tactics.

Hell, if the working out of your bank for crafting was in, PvP in town would be legit.

Goblin Squad Member

Right now, PvP with Golgotha is like a game of pool between friends. Sure, we'd rather win than lose, but losing isn't a big deal. Our friend might give us a hard time for a few days, and we'll come back next time wanting to turn the tables. We enjoy the fight, and that's the point.

Right now, in tier 1 gear, there is no real loss to PvP, but there also isn't any gain. Once there are things to gain or lose, you'll likely see a lot more PvP.


TEO Cheatle wrote:

Once all of this tech is in, PvPing like you are currently doing is legitimate tactics.

Just to be clear, I have not (yet) attacked anyone in a town. Not that I wouldn't... I'm just having too much fun interdicting mobile nodes gatherers before they get to town.

But strategic warfare *is* an interest.

Goblin Squad Member

True there is no real safehouse in PFO right now aside from the option of logging out. Logging out works for now, but I don't think will work forever. Later down the road when your toon stays in the world for X minutes after you log out (like EVE), logging out won’t be a completely viable option. (I can’t recall where I read that PFO would have this feature, whether it was in the blogs or in a devs post or somewhere, but I’m sure I read it - and it makes sense to have, for the same reasons it is needed in EVE).

I am confident that, once Settlement mechanics are more solid, once laws can be enacted and enforced in Settlements, once rep limits are put on entering certain Settlements, once city walls can be built, once Thornguards have better AI, and once there are many many more players around to actually enforce laws and respond to disturbances effectively, it will be very difficult to engage in this type of activity in most Settlements without it being a suicide mission. That alone will keep the frequency relatively low.

However, in the long run it also cannot be impossible. Assassins have to be able to ply their trade, too.

Goblin Squad Member

TEO Lone_Wolf wrote:
Assassins have to be able to ply their trade, too.

Aww, thanks for thinking of us minority too :D

Goblin Squad Member

Like it or not, the only way for PvP players to get their rocks off is to do what Golgotha has, very occasionally, been doing down south (and a few other places). Outside of running into a player settlement and poking the bear a few times, there is an extremely low chance of actually encountering measured resistance.

Towers don't provide it; there are too many to make it worth defending the ones you hold, much easier to just run off and grab someone elses when their window comes up.

Gatherers don't provide it; almost everyone gathers solo, and ganking unarmed loot pinatas gets very boring, very quickly.

Where else are the PvP orientated players supposed to be going to have a bit of fun? If you want us to go full a&**~$$ mode and gank every single bank alt we can find, we could do that. Or we could continue on with our "poke the bear a few times a week" tactics. That isn't going to change until we actually get a productive outlet for our stab-in-face desires.

Oh hey, look! Something else gushers would fix!

I for one think that the skirmish around Keepers/Brighthaven was in reasonably good fun. I think that the majority of the participants enjoyed themselves.

Goblin Squad Member

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I actually think the skirmishing between Golgotha and Brighthaven/Keepers has strengthened the relationship. We all know it is in fun and I've heard a lot of excitement and positive notes on the events in our CotP/TEO mumble channel.


Jakaal wrote:

...

So you're trying to say you can be a-holes b/c the game exists for you to be a-holes in?

Push the bounds past acceptable social behavior and then wonder why no one wants to play with you other than other a-holes that think the same.

That is why every PvP centered game are small niche pits of scum and vitriol.

PFO can work if PvPers can learn to understand PvEers can deal with PvP if it is on their terms or they are taking actions that are putting them at risk. Standing in town should not be risky. Attacking crafters or "bank zombies" is LESS interaction than the killing of mobs you claim to hate. It elicits a response b/c you're being an a-hole not from any desire to PvP. No one likes a-holes other than a-holes.

This is a player driven game first and foremost and you are entitled to your opinion however rudely you may have stated it. That said if you have a problem with what you believe to be improper social behavior correct it in game. Proper social behavior is based completely on interpretation and varies between the many groups that make up PFO. So who is right? The people that can enforce their interpretation IN GAME and not the ones who get the most favorites on the boards.

There of course common lines that shouldn't be crossed, killing in STARTER towns, harassing newbies, obscenities, spawn camping etc.. But killing an afker once to provoke a battle is not one of them.

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:

Unfortunately, there is no way for either of us to prove the other wrong.

Heck, your own mates might be HIDING their low rep just to fit in at K.P. ;-)

Ah.. you must be a little bit uninformed. I'm always right. That is just my nature. :P

Goblin Squad Member

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I know there are a few in Keeper's Pass that have not been enjoying being shot at or killed in Keeper's Pass. The complaints I have been hearing are from those that were trying to either craft or had to step away for something in RL and came back to find themselves dead are not thrilled.

I'm fine if both parties wish to duke it out, or if someone is jumped in the woods by a bandit (hazard of living in the River Kingdoms), but having people be harassed in town is not something I care to see.

Goblin Squad Member

From what I have heard and seen, the main reason for these changes are for the the smaller settlements and the starter settlements, where people are being douchebags.


KOTC WxCougar wrote:
having people be harassed in town is not something I care to see.

Combat is not harassment.

If you want combat free towns, crowdforge it.

Goblin Squad Member

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Savage Grace wrote:
KOTC WxCougar wrote:
having people be harassed in town is not something I care to see.

Combat is not harassment.

If you want combat free towns, crowdforge it.

Killing people in town is poor behavior and drives people out of the game. If you want a game with the population of a ghost town, then keep on.

Goblin Squad Member

If the settlements weren't meant to be PFO's version of "hi-sec", there wouldn't be 20+ Thornguards stationed in them. No place in PFO will ever be 100% safe, it's the degrees of safety we are talking about.


Lifedragn wrote:
Savage Grace wrote:
KOTC WxCougar wrote:
having people be harassed in town is not something I care to see.

Combat is not harassment.

If you want combat free towns, crowdforge it.

Killing people in town is poor behavior and drives people out of the game. If you want a game with the population of a ghost town, then keep on.

I haven't done it even once. But until the devs tell me they are going to let your Military Industrial Complex craft gear for your PvPers in utter invulnerability, it remains a viable option.

And I'm still puzzling how an AFKer who isn't even at their computer can get upset over something they didn't even see happen.

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