You can't maximize enervation to get an automatic 20 because don't roll any dice that would let you get a 20.
You could maximize it to get an automatic 4 however.
The way I have always interpreted Maximize is that you play the spell out normally, and then once that's done you look at all effects the spell gives you and if any are numeric variables you maximize those.I would say that that's very, very different from any interpretation of Maximize that I have ever heard. Or any metamagic, honestly-- it's not applied ex post facto, it's a part of the spell.
As far as the spray question yes, I would think those would maximize. Number of rounds when based on a roll is variable, numeric, and in most cases not opposed, so it should work with maximize. If it didn't things like a maximized timestop also wouldn't work, and I am fairly certain it does.I don't think you're looking at Prismatic Spray, which is a very different spell from Color Spray. Prismatic Spray has you roll a d8 per target for the effect it does. If Maximized it would actually do nothing, as you would treat the d8 as an 8 (roll twice on the table and ignore any rolls of 8), then treat your next two d8s as 8s... and thus your spell does nothing due to that 'ignore any more 8s' clause.
Incidentally, I'm going to bring the attack roll thing back up. You said:
Also, attack rolls don't work because they are opposed rolls, not because they aren't variable.However, this is untrue. An opposed roll is one where two dice are rolled, one for each party involved. Bluff vs. Sense Motive, Stealth vs. Perception, etc. Higher wins. However, there's only one die rolled on an attack roll, versus a static target. No opposition there. So, I ask again: can I Maximize Enervation to get an automatic 20 on the die roll, and if not why not?
If you can find a game definition of opposed roll that would treat an attack roll as one I'd love to see it.
I am aware its applied before. I meant that line of reasoning as a thought experiment one could use to determine which parts of a spell, if any, could be maximized.
Sorry I thought he/she said color spray. Prismatic spray gives you non numeric affects so it can't be maximized.
As for attacks being an opposed roll, that was proven out (I believe) earlier in the thread. I think the consensus was that an opposed roll was any roll that was opposed, be it by another die roll or something else (save, ac, etc).
Regardless of that interpretation, the d20 roll for an attack isn't a spell effect so it isn't altered by maximize. That's what I meant with the thought experiment. Think through enervation, the end result is that the target gains a variable number of negative levels. As that is the end effect, that is what maximize would function on. Next you ask yourself if the effect meets the metamagic requirements. As it is variable and numeric and an effect that isnt an opposed roll we are all good to go.
That's sort of my point. In the same way, I contend Cleromancy's d4s and Embrace Destiny's d20 are not an 'effect' of the spell, despite being variable numbers.
You can't maximize enervation to get an automatic 20 because don't roll any dice that would let you get a 20.
You could maximize it to get an automatic 4 however.I'm speaking of the attack roll, which is a d20.
What I'm trying to do is pin down what Amrel (and others, really) believe can or cannot qualify for Maximize and why.
Variable affects or values are any affects that can change between every casting of a spell when no other element changes.This is true of an attack roll, is it not? One can cast two Enervations, rolling a 9 to hit on the first and a 10 to hit on the second.
To clarify, an attack roll is not an effect. As such it cannot be a variable effect.
The d4 values and the d20 values from clereomancy and Embrace destiny are also not effects themselves. These roll's are used to calculate the end result. What are effects are bonus over a duration (cleromancy) and a "recorded result" which can be swapped for a d20 roll (Embrace Destiny). Maximize does not mean that you treat all die rolls as if they were max (as was in earlier editions of d&d).
What it means is that any effect of the spell that is variable and numeric are made to be their maximum possible value. In the case of cleromancy the effect is a bonus over a duration. In the case of Embrace Destiny it is not simply a bonus but a replacement of a d20 roll with your earlier variable numeric result.
Again this is different from an attack roll because the d20 roll granted by the spell is used to define the potency of the spell effect, just as rolling a d6 for the fireball spell determines its potency.
I believe our disagreements in the end boil down to how you define an effect. I see Embrace Destiny's effect as "use your recorded result instead of rolling a d20" and as such that result is part of the effect.
I believe what you are saying is that you don't see the result as part of an affect, that the effect is simply that you may do something other than roll a d20.
But the attack roll isn't an effect of the spell, it just represents how well you aim the spell.
The bonuses given by cleromancy are a variable numeric effect of the spell. The grouping makes it seem more complicated but its essentially the same thing.
The example with prismatic spray doesn't work because its not a variable numeric effect of the spell. The die are being used to generate a place on a table rather than a number.
But with cleromancy the dice are generating numbers that affect how potent the spell is (how big of a bonus you get and how many times you get the bonus.) Maximizing the spell would give you all rolls of 4, which means one group and you can get a +4 bonus every round until the spell ends.