When will the Rogues Role Feature Match Their Attack Features?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

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Ok, it has been a while now since the Rogue Role Feutures moved from generating Flatfooted to geberating Distressed condition.

However, all of our attacks do not crit off of distressed, they still only crit on Flatfooted. It is as rare to get a Short Bow or Lightblade crit as it is to get a rogue maneuver to drop.

When will the Rogue get fixed?

Goblinworks Executive Founder

When did the rogue role features (opportunist, daredevil, and cutthroat) ever cause distressed or flat-footed, other than the unimplemented effect where applying sneak attack will also apply any effect conditional on flat-footed?

Goblin Squad Member

In early Alpha, rogue attacks applied flat-footed before Distressed was introduced. Made utilising the attacks that capitalize on Flat-footed much easier to use. Technically wasn't the rogue role feature applying anything, but it gave those of us trying it out the closest feel to what the design we've been told will eventually be like, once the Rogue features apply it according to their specific conditions.

Goblin Squad Member

So, from my understanding the way it is SUPPOSED to work, is that anytime you sneak attack (from rogue feature) the target becomes flat footed(just for you, I think the wording was "Targets acts as flatfooted" or something like that.). Right now this is not in. Once this is in, it will fix alot of our problems with being able to exploit flat footed.

Goblin Squad Member

Totally off topic and not wanting to get into a non-PFO long discussion but I never agreed even in tabletop that a rogue could do rogue stuff in broad daylight in a desert with no cover, I always saw them as more back-alley at night critters. All the stuff that makes them work outside that environment seems to me to be rationalisation designed to make them work cos people like the role.

Just saying :D

Goblin Squad Member

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At the moment I have to melee and mash feint to get my target flatfooted, and as a light armour wearer, that's not nice against an ogre lout.

Rogue needs some love. The maneuvers are useless in PvE and things that would be useful like snapshot for getting out of melee are still not working. Having stun/slow and other conditions work on mobs would also help.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Don't expect rogues to perform well against enemies that see them coming.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Don't expect rogues to perform well against enemies that see them coming. fight back

FTFY

Goblin Squad Member

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DeciusBrutus wrote:
Don't expect rogues to perform well against enemies that see them coming.

I don't expect Rogues to work well if their effects don't proc as they are supposed to.

Rogue attacks feats proc on the condition of the opponent being flat footed. Kindly point to what feature or action produces "Flatfooted"?

Even if a Rogue fires his first shot from Stealth (the enemy did not see him coming), that still does not produce flat footed.

Melee attacks do not count in this discussion, because Stealth does not extend into melee range. But even if you wanted to make that argument, none of the lightblade features cause Flatfooted either.

Rogue attack feats either have to crit on the condition of "Distressed" or they have to be switched back to generating "Flatfooted".

As it stands now, it is a broken role. Its features do not have synergy.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:

Rogue attacks feats proc on the condition of the opponent being flat footed. Kindly point to what feature or action produces "Flatfooted"?

Utility Feint (and there could be more in the pipeline, but that I believe when I see it). I used it back when I though the Rogue role existed.

Bluddwolf wrote:


Even if a Rogue fires his first shot from Stealth (the enemy did not see him coming), that still does not produce flat footed.

It is said to be in the pipeline (see above)

Bluddwolf wrote:


As it stands now, it is a broken role. Its features do not have synergy.

Word!

Goblin Squad Member

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DeciusBrutus wrote:
Don't expect rogues to perform well against enemies that see them coming.

Last I checked, stealthed characters still show on minimap. So players will always see them coming.

My most recent experiment of stealth vs perception:
Rogue stealth 86, perception ~50
Wizard stealth 10, perception ~80

Each tested approaching the other to see how much closer the character trained in stealth could approach and be seen/targeted compared to the "untrained". Rogue could get 3 steps closer than the untrained. To be clear, that is trained stealth vs trained perception, and untrained stealth vs. trained perception. 3 steps difference. I believe in illustrates some value in training perception, and the lack of value in training stealth - unless of course you are a rogue and gated by it.

Stealth is not viable for player interactions.

Goblinworks Executive Founder

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The stealth feats have almost nothing to do with wether or not someone sees you coming or has you targeted.

I suggest hanging behind your teammate, with cutthroat class feature. When the enemy engages the bait/tank/bluff, move up and engage with daggers. Drop feint first, to get a couple of attacks with the ff bonus, then have your ally drop feint, then consider maneuvers. If the target shifts to the cutthroat, disengage with evasion, drop a tanglefoot bag on the target, and make hi choose.

Against ranged targets, slot opportunist. Cycle feints for the time being, until sneak attack is working properly, to get maximum benefit from things that trigger off of ff.

I'm not telling you secrets here; this is the first-order strategy such that anyone who doesn't understand at this basic level is acting in a manner that is games-theoretically "random". Not that genetic algorithms don't work, just that they will take much longer.

Goblin Squad Member

Next ting ya know him's gunna be spillin da beanz on me sooper sekrit "sharp bit goes in da udder guy" taktiks!

Goblin Squad Member

Decius it isn't that it's impossible to get a few of the things to work, it's that only one out of several works at all. That a core mechanic of the role is completely useless. If you really think 3 steps is a good return for a difference of 36 points..
I can't think of anything that isn't vulgar to say there.

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
The stealth feats have almost nothing to do with wether or not someone sees you coming or has you targeted.

I agree. The fact that stealth has nothing to do with it does seem counterintuitive however, and leaves the question, what is it for other than for gatherers?

Quote:

I suggest hanging behind your teammate, with cutthroat class feature. When the enemy engages the bait/tank/bluff, move up and engage with daggers. Drop feint first, to get a couple of attacks with the ff bonus, then have your ally drop feint, then consider maneuvers. If the target shifts to the cutthroat, disengage with evasion, drop a tanglefoot bag on the target, and make hi choose.

Against ranged targets, slot opportunist. Cycle feints for the time being, until sneak attack is working properly, to get maximum benefit from things that trigger off of ff.

I'm not telling you secrets here; this is the first-order strategy such that anyone who doesn't understand at this basic level is acting in a manner that is games-theoretically "random". Not that genetic algorithms don't work, just that they will take much longer.

Excellent examples, not just for rogues but for the underlying theory how groups are meant to work. A team working together that learns how to apply and capitalise off each other's conditions is the game as intended and an indication of a lot of work in group planning/synergy. Eventually it will be necessary to be competitive but most don't currently have the familiarity with the system. They have described interesting mechanics that they intend to use for the rogue. I'd love to get a chance to use them and will advocate for their priority every chance I get. Rogues need this, they need the ability of one or more shortbow attacks to have mobility (and I'd give up the sole long range Distant Shot), they need stealth to keep them off the minimap, and the planned balancing of armor resistances.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
Don't expect rogues to perform well against enemies that see them coming.

We've been told repeatedly that rogues will never be able to stealth into melee range and perform an old-style backstab, if that's what you're referring to.

We've also been told that all combatants are intended to count as flat-footed at the beginning of combat, similar to the tabletop game. The problem with coding that situation was reported to be carving out an exception for targets with Uncanny Dodge.

If all combatants who don't have Uncanny Dodge were counted as Flat-Footed until their first action in combat, then rogues wouldn't need to be able to stealth into melee range in order to apply large amounts of Alpha (1st) strike damage.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

"Sneak Attack damage is applied to all opponents who are not targeting you" doesn't work yet.

"Sneak Attack damage is applied to all targets as long as the Rogue is providing Opportunity" doesn't work yet, either.

Some people seem convinced that "Sneak Attack damage is applied to all targets who are providing Opportunity" is working, but I haven't seen a confirmation of that from GW.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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<Kabal> Kradlum wrote:

At the moment I have to melee and mash feint to get my target flatfooted, and as a light armour wearer, that's not nice against an ogre lout.

Rogue needs some love. The maneuvers are useless in PvE and things that would be useful like snapshot for getting out of melee are still not working. Having stun/slow and other conditions work on mobs would also help.

I've given up on the Rogue armor feats altogether, and now use the Fighter armor feat Archer. The survivability difference between light armor and medium armor is pretty substantial.


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From what I've gleaned from the forums so far, there is no plan to reverse the synergy removed by the Distressed/Flat-footed change (and I'm sad about it too). With that in mind, the initial combat flat-footed state cannot come into effect soon enough. It is the promised fix, but nothing more than that at the moment.

As far as Stealth goes, I would love to see a little bit of a stealth speed boost as you go up in levels. I'm fine with not being able to attack from stealth, but the single low gear makes it tough to use even tactically (aside from gathering v PvE, sitting in one spot guarding/ambushing, or attacking afk).

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:
Some people seem convinced that "Sneak Attack damage is applied to all targets who are providing Opportunity" is working, but I haven't seen a confirmation of that from GW.

Slot Opportunist. Take a long-reach melee weapon like a spear and agro a melee mob. Back up so mob keeps moving and displays opportunity. Attack mob and note damage. Do this a couple of times to make sure you capture the maximum damage you can do. (You could also use goblin scouts as they constantly present opportunity.)

Unslot Opportunist. Repeat the test sequence above, noting maximum damage.

In my experience, the basic spear exploit did about +24-25 points against goblins and wolves. With a damage factor of 2.43, that works out to +10 base damage.

I'm not GW, but if/when GW says something is working, I'd *still* recommending testing it.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Hobson Fiffledown wrote:

From what I've gleaned from the forums so far, there is no plan to reverse the synergy removed by the Distressed/Flat-footed change (and I'm sad about it too). With that in mind, the initial combat flat-footed state cannot come into effect soon enough. It is the promised fix, but nothing more than that at the moment.

As far as Stealth goes, I would love to see a little bit of a stealth speed boost as you go up in levels. I'm fine with not being able to attack from stealth, but the single low gear makes it tough to use even tactically (aside from gathering v PvE, sitting in one spot guarding/ambushing, or attacking afk).

Given how little each level of stealth affects the distance before a character stops being shadowed, a slight increase to stealthed speed with each level would be a nice benefit to training stealth.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Yrme wrote:
KarlBob wrote:
Some people seem convinced that "Sneak Attack damage is applied to all targets who are providing Opportunity" is working, but I haven't seen a confirmation of that from GW.

Slot Opportunist. Take a long-reach melee weapon like a spear and agro a melee mob. Back up so mob keeps moving and displays opporunity. Attack mob and note damage. Do this a couple of times to make sure you capture the maximum damage you can do. (You could also use goblin scouts as they constantly present opportunity.)

Unslot Opportunist. Repeat the test sequence above, noting maximum damage.

In my experience, the basic spear exploit did about +24-25 points against goblins and wolves. With a damage factor of 2.43, that works out to +10 base damage.

I'm not GW, but if/when GW says something is working, I'd *still* recommending testing it.

That's basically what I'd heard in game. Until the other feats work, I guess Opportunist is the one to use.

Goblin Squad Member

Seems to me high stealth now has you disappearing from the minimap at ranges that it previously did not.

Since the last patch if other party members stealth to clear nodes near groups we want to attack to avoid tab-target mishaps they disappear even if quite close.

It may be just my impression but it appears to have changed in favor of the stealthy party.

You are still not going to get even close to melee range when stealthed but that ability was always just plain stupid in any game without some sort of magical invis .

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:

"Sneak Attack damage is applied to all opponents who are not targeting you" doesn't work yet.

"Sneak Attack damage is applied to all targets as long as the Rogue is providing Opportunity" doesn't work yet, either.

Some people seem convinced that "Sneak Attack damage is applied to all targets who are providing Opportunity" is working, but I haven't seen a confirmation of that from GW.

It works for me (I think I have daredevil slotted at the moment). I see at least 5% more damage to opponents who are not targetting me. Sneak up on a bandit recruit and hit it with Deadly Shot and it will go down in one. A bandit recruit that is targetting me will only take about 95% damage from the same shot.

I tested Snap Shot repeatedly last night and on no occasion did it evade more than a tiny shuffle back. Definitely not the 10m advertised. I've bugged it and I'm going to whine on the GW boards. Since Running Shot is also a joke, that makes 1/3 of the short bow feats a waste of xp. If they don't work, they shouldn't be in the game.

I think you are right, the Scout armour feat and light armour are pointless at the moment. But that just makes me feel I have wasted so much xp this month on useless armour feats and crafting/refining abilities to make useless armour.

Goblin Squad Member

For the record, I primarily slot Scout / Opportunist.

On a side note, I have yet to see my Critical: Bleeding attacks proc.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

From the Goblinworks forums today:

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Sneak Attack triggering Flat Footed conditionals is scheduled for "soon" but I can't get any more precise than that yet.

Goblin Squad Member

KarlBob wrote:

From the Goblinworks forums today:

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Sneak Attack triggering Flat Footed conditionals is scheduled for "soon" but I can't get any more precise than that yet.

That is good news.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
KarlBob wrote:

From the Goblinworks forums today:

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Sneak Attack triggering Flat Footed conditionals is scheduled for "soon" but I can't get any more precise than that yet.
That is good news.

Or at least it will be good news Soon (tm).

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