Fighter going mythic? Choose archmage. Here's why.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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This is amusing, nice find.

I don't have mythic, but if I did, and a player had presented this to me, I'd be impressed at the lateral thinking on display. I'd let them do it, with the caveat that their caster level would effectively be 1, and only for the purpose of this ability. It would basically be like wild talent magic.

Casting spells that will eat up their a limited resource pool and be the least effective they can be? That will not threaten existing casters.


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Mathius wrote:

The problem is you still need to have min CL to cast the spell. The stone gets you all level 1 spells and a bead of karma plus the stone gets you 1 2 and 3. Might be able to squeak out 4th level spells some how but you are not getting the upper half of spells.

This only applies if you actually have CL 0 and not CL -.

I guess you could argue that CL part is only talking about lowering CL and you do whatever you want at your max level. CL 6 commune and CL 11 wish support you but are SLAs and not full spell casting.

The rule about not lowering your CL below the minimum to cast is a specific rule about intentionally changing your effective CL, it has no bearing outside that context.

The arcane surge ability adjudicates all of its own conciderations regarding what level of spell you can cast; it specifically and explicitly says "any arcane spell."


Scythia wrote:

This is amusing, nice find.

I don't have mythic, but if I did, and a player had presented this to me, I'd be impressed at the lateral thinking on display. I'd let them do it, with the caveat that their caster level would effectively be 1, and only for the purpose of this ability. It would basically be like wild talent magic.

Casting spells that will eat up their a limited resource pool and be the least effective they can be? That will not threaten existing casters.

Maybe not a big threat to wizards who have all the power of the cosmos at their finger tips; but neither blood money nor wish have CL dependent abilities.


I wonder how Andreww will rule on this in our fight. If you use it. I can see the minimal level rule going either way.

By the way I agree with you about sno cones.

In a home game I would go with Scythia idea and even if you can crank it all the way to CL 9 or something it is still not a big deal unless you level 3 mt 1 or something. WBL should make that difficult anyway.


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Scythia wrote:

This is amusing, nice find.

I don't have mythic, but if I did, and a player had presented this to me, I'd be impressed at the lateral thinking on display. I'd let them do it, with the caveat that their caster level would effectively be 1, and only for the purpose of this ability. It would basically be like wild talent magic.

Casting spells that will eat up their a limited resource pool and be the least effective they can be? That will not threaten existing casters.

Note that BigDTBone is contending that this is any arcane spell, and there are a huge number of notable spells with relatively negligible caster levels.

At maximum, this is Wish 31/day. Duplicated spells suck with it, but undoing other spells, adding to an ability score, altering rolls, etc. Among a massive number of other capabilities by duplicating the entire game's playbook.


Hmmm. When a character is granted spell-casting, the class feature that grants it defines their casting stat, and which is tied to save DCs and Concentration checks.

One RAW method of shutting this down may be that since it doesn't grant you a casting stat, you can't qualify for the rule that says you have to have a casting stat of 10 + spell level in order to cast that spell.


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Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.


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I love this. Nice find, Bone.


Mathius wrote:

I wonder how Andreww will rule on this in our fight. If you use it. I can see the minimal level rule going either way.

By the way I agree with you about sno cones.

In a home game I would go with Scythia idea and even if you can crank it all the way to CL 9 or something it is still not a big deal unless you level 3 mt 1 or something. WBL should make that difficult anyway.

He said no.


Martials are finally on par with casters! Woo!


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Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.

Perfectly possible to struggle in Mythic. Just don't push the party to Mythic 10 without being willing to make your own stuff, because nothing in the bestiaries is a challenge then. But that doesn't mean a challenge is impossible.


kestral287 wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.
Perfectly possible to struggle in Mythic. Just don't push the party to Mythic 10 without being willing to make your own stuff, because nothing in the bestiaries is a challenge then. But that doesn't mean a challenge is impossible.

There's at least one mythic book with lots of cool campaign ideas and mythic monsters to fight. And Wrath of the Righteous is all about being mythic with a good challenge.

Edit: I was also GMing a home brew mythic campaign last year, but we abandoned it for the Iron Gods AP. Which is a blast, btw.


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Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.

Peter Noone reporting in.


BigDTBone wrote:


I fail to see the difference between, "against dev intentions," and, "against RAI."

The difference is that one case is actually against the rules(RAI). The other can be legal with due RAI, but the combination of certain abilities can lead to things that were not anticipated, and also not good to use.

That is why I brought up the issue of +10 caster levels and Gate. If someone is going to say CL's are not meant go past ___ then they have to list the cap on CL's which does not exist. Or maybe they will argue that you can only use your native CL's with Gate or some other reason why they don't like it. In the end of that really matters.

Then you stack it with Gate which is powered more by CL's when calling creatures and you have people gating in CR 22 and higher titans at a level when that titan should be a boss fight for them.

Sometimes rules are just really poorly written and they allow things that should not be allowed, and sometimes they just interact in such a way that the GM has to decide if he is going to allow it.

Does A work with B?
Does B work with C?
Does A work with C?
If the answer is yes then they all likely work together.

Now it may also be possible for some reason the A+B+C is going to be frowned upon, but that does not make them against the rules.


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bookrat wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.
Perfectly possible to struggle in Mythic. Just don't push the party to Mythic 10 without being willing to make your own stuff, because nothing in the bestiaries is a challenge then. But that doesn't mean a challenge is impossible.

There's at least one mythic book with lots of cool campaign ideas and mythic monsters to fight. And Wrath of the Righteous is all about being mythic with a good challenge.

Edit: I was also GMing a home brew mythic campaign last year, but we abandoned it for the Iron Gods AP. Which is a blast, btw.

Wrath of the righteous is infamous for being laughably easy with mythic levels, so that's probably not the best example to give.


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BigDTBone wrote:
Scythia wrote:

This is amusing, nice find.

I don't have mythic, but if I did, and a player had presented this to me, I'd be impressed at the lateral thinking on display. I'd let them do it, with the caveat that their caster level would effectively be 1, and only for the purpose of this ability. It would basically be like wild talent magic.

Casting spells that will eat up their a limited resource pool and be the least effective they can be? That will not threaten existing casters.

Maybe not a big threat to wizards who have all the power of the cosmos at their finger tips; but neither blood money nor wish have CL dependent abilities.

So, burn a point, cast Blood Money, take Str damage (as a fighter), burn another point, cast Wish, and do what?

Use it to emulate another spell? The emulated spell will still be weak as possible.

Use for a teleport? Congrats you burned lots of resources to do what a wizard could do much more easily.

Get a +1 Inherent bonus? A single +1 isn't going to make many waves, and getting more than a +1 requires concurrent casting, which you can't do if you have to cast Blood Money every other round.

I don't see the problem, I guess.


wraithstrike wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:


I fail to see the difference between, "against dev intentions," and, "against RAI."

The difference is that one case is actually against the rules(RAI). The other can be legal with due RAI, but the combination of certain abilities can lead to things that were not anticipated, and also not good to use.

That is why I brought up the issue of +10 caster levels and Gate. If someone is going to say CL's are not meant go past ___ then they have to list the cap on CL's which does not exist. Or maybe they will argue that you can only use your native CL's with Gate or some other reason why they don't like it. In the end of that really matters.

Then you stack it with Gate which is powered more by CL's when calling creatures and you have people gating in CR 22 and higher titans at a level when that titan should be a boss fight for them.

Sometimes rules are just really poorly written and they allow things that should not be allowed, and sometimes they just interact in such a way that the GM has to decide if he is going to allow it.

Does A work with B?
Does B work with C?
Does A work with C?
If the answer is yes then they all likely work together.

Now it may also be possible for some reason the A+B+C is going to be frowned upon, but that does not make them against the rules.

Under those terms I see using a 7th level spell to gain 3 9th level spells and 75,000 gp worth of spell components every day forever in the same camp as arcane surge for a commoner.


Blakmane wrote:
bookrat wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.
Perfectly possible to struggle in Mythic. Just don't push the party to Mythic 10 without being willing to make your own stuff, because nothing in the bestiaries is a challenge then. But that doesn't mean a challenge is impossible.

There's at least one mythic book with lots of cool campaign ideas and mythic monsters to fight. And Wrath of the Righteous is all about being mythic with a good challenge.

Edit: I was also GMing a home brew mythic campaign last year, but we abandoned it for the Iron Gods AP. Which is a blast, btw.

Wrath of the righteous is infamous for being laughably easy with mythic levels, so that's probably not the best example to give.

Unfortunately, I never made it that far in. The GM quit after the first book.


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kestral287 wrote:
Scythia wrote:

This is amusing, nice find.

I don't have mythic, but if I did, and a player had presented this to me, I'd be impressed at the lateral thinking on display. I'd let them do it, with the caveat that their caster level would effectively be 1, and only for the purpose of this ability. It would basically be like wild talent magic.

Casting spells that will eat up their a limited resource pool and be the least effective they can be? That will not threaten existing casters.

Note that BigDTBone is contending that this is any arcane spell, and there are a huge number of notable spells with relatively negligible caster levels.

At maximum, this is Wish 31/day. Duplicated spells suck with it, but undoing other spells, adding to an ability score, altering rolls, etc. Among a massive number of other capabilities by duplicating the entire game's playbook.

It doesn't say anything about not needing costly material components, so those 31 wishes a day will require a huge investment. Or as BigDT pointed out, Blood Money. So, you're not buying or keeping any magical equipment or you're a fighter with constant strength damage. Either way, not that scary.


BigDTBone wrote:
Mathius wrote:

I wonder how Andreww will rule on this in our fight. If you use it. I can see the minimal level rule going either way.

By the way I agree with you about sno cones.

In a home game I would go with Scythia idea and even if you can crank it all the way to CL 9 or something it is still not a big deal unless you level 3 mt 1 or something. WBL should make that difficult anyway.

He said no.

Of course he did, he has a caster bias.


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bookrat wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.
Perfectly possible to struggle in Mythic. Just don't push the party to Mythic 10 without being willing to make your own stuff, because nothing in the bestiaries is a challenge then. But that doesn't mean a challenge is impossible.
There's at least one mythic book with lots of cool campaign ideas and mythic monsters to fight. And Wrath of the Righteous is all about being mythic with a good challenge.

By all accounts Wrath falls off in difficulty at higher tiers, and from my own testing Cthulhu isn't overly challenging for a single mythic character once you figure out a way around his DC40 Will save-or-die aura (usually, just by staying out of range). Outside of that single ability, 700 hit points isn't hard, and if it's not hard to beat once it's not hard to beat twice.

If you are optimizing, he's actually in range to save-or-die. It's really not hard: 10(base) +9 (spell)+18 (stat; 46 is as high as it can go)+4 (Spell Focus & Greater & Mythic)+2 (Potent)= 43, roll twice and take the lower. Add Channel Power and you bypass his SR and he eats a -2 on the save. His saves are 29/29/33. Target his Fort save with a 9th level spell (Heighten if you have to) with all that and you've got a 93.75% chance of one-shotting him. Note that his initiative is a paltry +15; if you can't beat that with a level 20/mythic 10 you're not trying.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mythic. And challenging that is certainly possible. But you have to move beyond the book stuff.


I guess the missing casting stat makes this even worse. That might kill it even basing it on stupid raw.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mythic JMD031 wrote:

Why this does not work - "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level." CRB - Chapter on Magic

Since your Caster Level = 0, you cannot cast spells of any type as you require at least CL of 1 to be able to cast 0 - level spells.

This.... the part the OP selectively chose to forget.


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kestral287 wrote:
bookrat wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.
Perfectly possible to struggle in Mythic. Just don't push the party to Mythic 10 without being willing to make your own stuff, because nothing in the bestiaries is a challenge then. But that doesn't mean a challenge is impossible.
There's at least one mythic book with lots of cool campaign ideas and mythic monsters to fight. And Wrath of the Righteous is all about being mythic with a good challenge.

By all accounts Wrath falls off in difficulty at higher tiers, and from my own testing Cthulhu isn't overly challenging for a single mythic character once you figure out a way around his DC40 Will save-or-die aura (usually, just by staying out of range). Outside of that single ability, 700 hit points isn't hard, and if it's not hard to beat once it's not hard to beat twice.

If you are optimizing, he's actually in range to save-or-die. It's really not hard: 10(base) +9 (spell)+18 (stat; 46 is as high as it can go)+4 (Spell Focus & Greater & Mythic)+2 (Potent)= 43, roll twice and take the lower. Add Channel Power and you bypass his SR and he eats a -2 on the save. His saves are 29/29/33. Target his Fort save with a 9th level spell (Heighten if you have to) with all that and you've got a 93.75% chance of one-shotting him. Note that his initiative is a paltry +15; if you can't beat that with a level 20/mythic 10 you're not trying.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mythic. And challenging that is certainly possible. But you have to move beyond the book stuff.

I generally find that monsters are much easier when one plays them as if they don't have intelligence. For example, even mythic characters should have a tough time fighting Cthulhu, because he would never go into a straight on slugfest against someone stronger than himself. I have a sneaking suspicion that WotR may not be as easy as people say simply based on so many people playing the bad guys to the PCs favor rather than as thinking and mean/vicious real non-player characters. I've been running planescape campaigns for years, so I'm well experienced with the meanness of Demons and Devils - even with mythic, they shouldn't be easy if played well.

I've found that encounters that are blasted as rediculously easy on the threads have been challenging for my players simply due to tactics (without any other out-of-combat meanness) and encounters that my own players have said was deadly when they went through it was easy for me as a player due to same said tactics. That's all in-combat stuff; there's a whole other world of tactical planning and intrigue bad guys can do out of combat. That's what makes monsters challenging - not just their damage, HP, DR, and spells. Think beyond the stat block, and bring your monsters to life.


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Mathius wrote:
I guess the missing casting stat makes this even worse. That might kill it even basing it on stupid raw.

The casting stat rule is NOT in the magic chapter. It is part of each classes individual spells ability. It is therefore not a global restriction but a restriction of each class. It also has no bearing on Mythic Commoner of DOOM!


LazarX wrote:
Mythic JMD031 wrote:

Why this does not work - "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level." CRB - Chapter on Magic

Since your Caster Level = 0, you cannot cast spells of any type as you require at least CL of 1 to be able to cast 0 - level spells.

This.... the part the OP selectively chose to forget.

Not relevant. See my reply to JMD031.


kestral287 wrote:
bookrat wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.
Perfectly possible to struggle in Mythic. Just don't push the party to Mythic 10 without being willing to make your own stuff, because nothing in the bestiaries is a challenge then. But that doesn't mean a challenge is impossible.
There's at least one mythic book with lots of cool campaign ideas and mythic monsters to fight. And Wrath of the Righteous is all about being mythic with a good challenge.

By all accounts Wrath falls off in difficulty at higher tiers, and from my own testing Cthulhu isn't overly challenging for a single mythic character once you figure out a way around his DC40 Will save-or-die aura (usually, just by staying out of range). Outside of that single ability, 700 hit points isn't hard, and if it's not hard to beat once it's not hard to beat twice.

If you are optimizing, he's actually in range to save-or-die. It's really not hard: 10(base) +9 (spell)+18 (stat; 46 is as high as it can go)+4 (Spell Focus & Greater & Mythic)+2 (Potent)= 43, roll twice and take the lower. Add Channel Power and you bypass his SR and he eats a -2 on the save. His saves are 29/29/33. Target his Fort save with a 9th level spell (Heighten if you have to) with all that and you've got a 93.75% chance of one-shotting him. Note that his initiative is a paltry +15; if you can't beat that with a level 20/mythic 10 you're not trying.

Don't get me wrong, I love Mythic. And challenging that is certainly possible. But you have to move beyond the book stuff.

Wow... if I ever have a game with the big guy I am gonna triple everything on him and have a few starchildren with him...

Grand Lodge

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To cast a spell, you must have the ability to cast spells. Fighters don't get that ability. You can rule it however you want, that's my ruling.

Quote:
A spell is a one-time magical effect. Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). Some spellcasters select their spells from a limited list of spells known, while others have access to a wide variety of options.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
To cast a spell, you must have the ability to cast spells. Fighters don't get that ability. You can rule it however you want, that's my ruling.

The ability says you can cast spells.

I wouldn't rule that it works. But it does by RAW.


Ok so reading the first two sentences of this ability
"Arcane Surge (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today (even if you have already cast it); if you're a spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells known."
I would then ask where it's stated the fighter is either a spontaneous caster or a prepared caster. It doesn't? Do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. Thanks for playing.
This isn't ability A happens in a vacuum, separate from either conditions 1 or 2.
This is how this ability works with these subsets of conditions.


BigDTBone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I don't know any GM's who will let you pass go with this idea.
Me either, I also don't know any GM's who would put up with the sno-cone wish machine, or planar binding shenanigans, but those get thrown around as "RAW" all the time. This ability is clear as day in the RAW. There is no hemming or hawing. The ability specifically and explicitly states "you can cast ANY arcane spell," by burning a mythic power point.

I just wanted to say "hi"... (I'm so lonely, no one knows me...)


BigDTBone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:


I fail to see the difference between, "against dev intentions," and, "against RAI."

The difference is that one case is actually against the rules(RAI). The other can be legal with due RAI, but the combination of certain abilities can lead to things that were not anticipated, and also not good to use.

That is why I brought up the issue of +10 caster levels and Gate. If someone is going to say CL's are not meant go past ___ then they have to list the cap on CL's which does not exist. Or maybe they will argue that you can only use your native CL's with Gate or some other reason why they don't like it. In the end of that really matters.

Then you stack it with Gate which is powered more by CL's when calling creatures and you have people gating in CR 22 and higher titans at a level when that titan should be a boss fight for them.

Sometimes rules are just really poorly written and they allow things that should not be allowed, and sometimes they just interact in such a way that the GM has to decide if he is going to allow it.

Does A work with B?
Does B work with C?
Does A work with C?
If the answer is yes then they all likely work together.

Now it may also be possible for some reason the A+B+C is going to be frowned upon, but that does not make them against the rules.

Under those terms I see using a 7th level spell to gain 3 9th level spells and 75,000 gp worth of spell components every day forever in the same camp as arcane surge for a commoner.

You must be referencing a board theory combo I have not run across yet.

Can I get the long description? <-----Serious question.

Grand Lodge

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Marroar Gellantara wrote:
The ability says you can cast spells.

It says you can spend a point to cast a spell without expending a slot. It doesn't say "you gain the ability to cast a spell". You still need to be able to cast spells in the first place.


bookrat wrote:
I generally find that monsters are much easier when one plays them as if they don't have intelligence. For example, even mythic characters should have a tough time fighting Cthulhu, because he would never go into a straight on slugfest against someone stronger than himself. I have a sneaking suspicion that WotR may not be as easy as people say simply based on so many people playing the bad guys to the PCs favor rather than as thinking and mean/vicious real non-player characters. I've been running planescape campaigns for years, so I'm well experienced with the meanness of Demons and Devils - even with mythic, they shouldn't be easy if played well.

From what I have read PC's are one rounding bosses and doing +125% of the boss's hit points at times. Now unless a lot of people are blatantly lying tactics is not the problem.


Darkthorne68 wrote:

Ok so reading the first two sentences of this ability

"Arcane Surge (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today (even if you have already cast it); if you're a spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells known."
I would then ask where it's stated the fighter is either a spontaneous caster or a prepared caster. It doesn't? Do not pass go, do not collect $200.00. Thanks for playing.

Being a prepared or spontaneous caster isn't a requirement of the ability. In fact, having those abilities are actually triggers for limitations to the ability.

Grand Lodge

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Anyway, I've FAQed it for you, so we'll see if they get around to adjusting this.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
You still need to be able to cast spells in the first place.

That is not a requirement in the ability.

If it were then there would have been a prerequisite to become an archmage or to take that ability. Neither have that prerequisite.


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bookrat wrote:

I generally find that monsters are much easier when one plays them as if they don't have intelligence. For example, even mythic characters should have a tough time fighting Cthulhu, because he would never go into a straight on slugfest against someone stronger than himself. I have a sneaking suspicion that WotR may not be as easy as people say simply based on so many people playing the bad guys to the PCs favor rather than as thinking and mean/vicious real non-player characters. I've been running planescape campaigns for years, so I'm well experienced with the meanness of Demons and Devils - even with mythic, they shouldn't be easy if played well.

I've found that encounters that are blasted as rediculously easy on the threads have been challenging for my players simply due to tactics (without any other out-of-combat meanness) and encounters that my own players have said was deadly when they went through it was easy for me as a player due to same said tactics. That's all in-combat stuff; there's a whole other world of tactical planning and intrigue bad guys can do out of combat. That's what makes monsters challenging - not just their damage, HP, DR, and spells. Think beyond the stat block, and bring your monsters to life.

This is true-- and really it depends on how and where he's fought. But, by the book? A single level 20/mythic 10 is not someone stronger than Cthulhu. They're a CR25; meaning for an entire party of these people Cthulhu is meant to be beyond an epic threat. In reality, the Wizard can off him with three mythic power and one ninth level spell. And yeah, tactics, terrain, etc. can make that harder. Except that on paper, Cthulhu should be alone and still presenting that epic threat. And he really just... can't. His tactics, to survive, have to be a giant game of keep-away-- because the minute the Wizard enters range to cast a Heightened Baleful Polymorph or what have you, he's dead. That is not what the book presents. The book tells us that Cthulhu should be laughing at the puny mortal who dare threaten him and stomping the poor girl into the dirt, because she's that much weaker than he is (seriously, he's CR30 to her CR25). Note that she only needs to hit him once and she's all but guaranteed to get the first turn every round. And yeah, tactics can make him hard to hit, the nature of the battlefield can make that a pain... but once she comes up with a way to beat that DC40 will save to enter range, Quickened Teleport + her kill shot handles him handily before he gets a way to fight back on the battlefield.

I guess the short version is that my gripe with Cthulhu is that he's pitched by the CRs as so incredibly badass that he shouldn't need help, he shouldn't need to fight fancy. When it comes time, he should be able to take on one old man in a hockey rink who's been pissing him off, not trying desperately to stay out of reach of the man*.

The key problem with mythic balance is that the book says 2 mythic tiers are equivalent to one level when in reality a 1:1 ratio is more fair (though some tiers are worth far more than others, it's at least a decent approximation).

*Wrong Great Old One, I know, but I couldn't help the reference and it actually fits.


wraithstrike wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:


I fail to see the difference between, "against dev intentions," and, "against RAI."

The difference is that one case is actually against the rules(RAI). The other can be legal with due RAI, but the combination of certain abilities can lead to things that were not anticipated, and also not good to use.

That is why I brought up the issue of +10 caster levels and Gate. If someone is going to say CL's are not meant go past ___ then they have to list the cap on CL's which does not exist. Or maybe they will argue that you can only use your native CL's with Gate or some other reason why they don't like it. In the end of that really matters.

Then you stack it with Gate which is powered more by CL's when calling creatures and you have people gating in CR 22 and higher titans at a level when that titan should be a boss fight for them.

Sometimes rules are just really poorly written and they allow things that should not be allowed, and sometimes they just interact in such a way that the GM has to decide if he is going to allow it.

Does A work with B?
Does B work with C?
Does A work with C?
If the answer is yes then they all likely work together.

Now it may also be possible for some reason the A+B+C is going to be frowned upon, but that does not make them against the rules.

Under those terms I see using a 7th level spell to gain 3 9th level spells and 75,000 gp worth of spell components every day forever in the same camp as arcane surge for a commoner.

You must be referencing a board theory combo I have not run across yet.

Can I get the long description? <-----Serious question.

Cast simulacrum to create a sno-version of an efreet. Make the efreet grant you three wishes a day. Don't pay the 25K gp diamond for the wishes.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
The ability says you can cast spells.
It says you can spend a point to cast a spell without expending a slot. It doesn't say "you gain the ability to cast a spell". You still need to be able to cast spells in the first place.

I don't see how you could read it that way.


BigDTBone wrote:
Mathius wrote:
I guess the missing casting stat makes this even worse. That might kill it even basing it on stupid raw.
The casting stat rule is NOT in the magic chapter. It is part of each classes individual spells ability. It is therefore not a global restriction but a restriction of each class. It also has no bearing on Mythic Commoner of DOOM!

This one is --> "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, ..."

The fighter does not even get to choose a caster level.

Then the question is asked how do we know what your caster level needs to be for a certain spell?

Well that depends on how your spell list is constructed, and this fighter does not even have a spell list.

I have yet to see anyone dictate how you can cast any spell without expending a slot translate into "you can bypass every other requirement also."

It would be like a feat that said "You can use any weapon, even those you are not proficient in without taking penalties", and someone tried to say "Oh, now I can use gargantuan weapons", while ignoring the size restriction.

The entire time focusing on the "You can use any weapon.." part.


Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.

Man... I'm just... it's like I don't exist...

Ipslore the Red wrote:
Blakmane wrote:
Honestly, it's mythic rules anyway. Noone plays mythic rules because they want to see their characters struggle against adversity. I would probably even allow this in-game if a martial was in a party of all full casters.
Peter Noone reporting in.

He speaks the language of my people!

Mathius wrote:

The problem is you still need to have min CL to cast the spell. The stone gets you all level 1 spells and a bead of karma plus the stone gets you 1 2 and 3. Might be able to squeak out 4th level spells some how but you are not getting the upper half of spells.

This only applies if you actually have CL 0 and not CL -.

I guess you could argue that CL part is only talking about lowering CL and you do whatever you want at your max level. CL 6 commune and CL 11 wish support you but are SLAs and not full spell casting.

One thing regarding "--" and comparing it to "0" - for purposes of animal companions (well vermin animal companions), at least, when you upgrade their ability scores, you can choose to increase their "-" to "1".

Thread that I just learned about!


wraithstrike wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Mathius wrote:
I guess the missing casting stat makes this even worse. That might kill it even basing it on stupid raw.
The casting stat rule is NOT in the magic chapter. It is part of each classes individual spells ability. It is therefore not a global restriction but a restriction of each class. It also has no bearing on Mythic Commoner of DOOM!

This one is --> "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, ..."

The fighter does not even get to choose a caster level.

Then the question is asked how do we know what your caster level needs to be for a certain spell?

Well that depends on how your spell list is constructed, and this fighter does not even have a spell list.

I have yet to see anyone dictate how you can cast any spell without expending a slot translate into "you can bypass every other requirement also."

It would be like a feat that said "You can use any weapon, even those you are not proficient in without taking penalties", and someone tried to say "Oh, now I can use gargantuan weapons", while ignoring the size restriction.

The entire time focusing on the "You can use any weapon.." part.

The rule about not lowering your CL below the minimum to cast is a specific rule about intentionally changing your effective CL, it has no bearing outside that context.

The arcane surge ability adjudicates all of its own conciderations regarding what level of spell you can cast; it specifically and explicitly says "any arcane spell."

Grand Lodge

BigDTBone wrote:
That is not a requirement in the ability.

It's a requirement to cast spells.

Shadow Lodge

Marroar Gellantara wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
The ability says you can cast spells.
It says you can spend a point to cast a spell without expending a slot. It doesn't say "you gain the ability to cast a spell". You still need to be able to cast spells in the first place.
I don't see how you could read it that way.

I've noticed.


kestral287 wrote:
bookrat wrote:

I generally find that monsters are much easier when one plays them as if they don't have intelligence. For example, even mythic characters should have a tough time fighting Cthulhu, because he would never go into a straight on slugfest against someone stronger than himself. I have a sneaking suspicion that WotR may not be as easy as people say simply based on so many people playing the bad guys to the PCs favor rather than as thinking and mean/vicious real non-player characters. I've been running planescape campaigns for years, so I'm well experienced with the meanness of Demons and Devils - even with mythic, they shouldn't be easy if played well.

I've found that encounters that are blasted as rediculously easy on the threads have been challenging for my players simply due to tactics (without any other out-of-combat meanness) and encounters that my own players have said was deadly when they went through it was easy for me as a player due to same said tactics. That's all in-combat stuff; there's a whole other world of tactical planning and intrigue bad guys can do out of combat. That's what makes monsters challenging - not just their damage, HP, DR, and spells. Think beyond the stat block, and bring your monsters to life.

This is true-- and really it depends on how and where he's fought. But, by the book? A single level 20/mythic 10 is not someone stronger than Cthulhu. They're a CR25; meaning for an entire party of these people Cthulhu is meant to be beyond an epic threat. In reality, the Wizard can off him with three mythic power and one ninth level spell. And yeah, tactics, terrain, etc. can make that harder. Except that on paper, Cthulhu should be alone and still presenting that epic threat. And he really just... can't. His tactics, to survive, have to be a giant game of keep-away-- because the minute the Wizard enters range to cast a Heightened Baleful Polymorph or what have you, he's dead. That is not what the book presents. The book tells us that Cthulhu...

I can't argue with you here. I agree on all your points. And while I sometimes make the same types of arguments you present, I have to remind myself that pathfinder is a game of more than just statistics and numbers - it's a game of imagination and creativity. And it's in these unwritten worlds of imagination that the challenge truly lies. An odd sentiment in a thread about pure RAW. :)


BigDTBone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Mathius wrote:
I guess the missing casting stat makes this even worse. That might kill it even basing it on stupid raw.
The casting stat rule is NOT in the magic chapter. It is part of each classes individual spells ability. It is therefore not a global restriction but a restriction of each class. It also has no bearing on Mythic Commoner of DOOM!

This one is --> "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, ..."

The fighter does not even get to choose a caster level.

Then the question is asked how do we know what your caster level needs to be for a certain spell?

Well that depends on how your spell list is constructed, and this fighter does not even have a spell list.

I have yet to see anyone dictate how you can cast any spell without expending a slot translate into "you can bypass every other requirement also."

It would be like a feat that said "You can use any weapon, even those you are not proficient in without taking penalties", and someone tried to say "Oh, now I can use gargantuan weapons", while ignoring the size restriction.

The entire time focusing on the "You can use any weapon.." part.

The rule about not lowering your CL below the minimum to cast is a specific rule about intentionally changing your effective CL, it has no bearing outside that context.

The arcane surge ability adjudicates all of its own conciderations regarding what level of spell you can cast; it specifically and explicitly says "any arcane spell."

Are you a barber? You're awesome at splitting hairs.

You are deliberately taking sections of the rules out of context.
It's like driving 55 in a school zone and when the Officer pulls you over and asks why you're driving so fast, and you explain your manual states 55 IS the speed limit. That's when he points out "when you're on the highway". But don't worry I'm sure you'll convince everyone.


TOZ wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Marroar Gellantara wrote:
The ability says you can cast spells.
It says you can spend a point to cast a spell without expending a slot. It doesn't say "you gain the ability to cast a spell". You still need to be able to cast spells in the first place.
I don't see how you could read it that way.
I've noticed.

I have this bad habit of believing that words mean what they do.

Abilities do what they say they do.

Get over it.

Grand Lodge

Marroar Gellantara wrote:

]I have this bad habit of believing that words mean what they do.

Abilities do what they say they do.

Get over it.

No one is forcing you to reply.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
No one is forcing you to reply.

No one is forcing you either.

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