Three ACG Errata You Didn't FAQ


Rules Questions

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I run Stealth using the terminology from Rogue Glory. Stealth successfully used means you are Hidden (as opposed to Observed) and also have one of the three relative conditions:

*Undetected - your opponent has no idea you are Hidden nearby
*Detected - your opponent knows "somebody is Hidden nearby"
*Located - your opponent knows which square you occupy and can target it

In all three cases you have the benefits of 50% concealment, DX-denial, and +2 to hit. The special case for Invisibility, if you somehow manage to fail your Stealth roll, is that you are Located at worst, but never Observed.

The change to the Sniper ability is talking about Undetected.

Paizo Employee Sales Imp

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Removed a post and the replies and references to it. If you have an opinion to relate on this subject, positive or negative, please refrain from epithets and/or name calling. If you see a problematic post, flag it and move on. Do not acknowledge or reply.


Mark Seifter wrote:
You postpone your first ranger combat feat talent to 4 (but can still take the second at 6)

This part is of interest to me. I'm glad to have it actually stated that you don't have to take the Ranger talents at exactly 2/6/10. Now all I need is to know if you can skip the first or second talent and still take the later ones.


Interesting change for the Sniper.

I hope there's also an explanation for what Sniper does with Swift Tracking when they don't get Track to start with.


Quick question... What happens if the Ecclesiarch enchants his holy symbol, dies, and is brought back to life? Is the money he invested in his symbol gone for good?

Only asking because my 14th level RotRL campaign has a warpriest that's collecting frequent flier vouchers in the afterlife at the moment.

The Exchange

When will the team address the numerous issues that have been raised by the community rather than things that the team admites weren't issues of dispute?


what are some of the issues you'd like to be addressed sooner than later?

The Exchange

The feat pre req issues for the shield champion.

Why does the bolt ace retain gunsmithing.

Why does the shield champion not gain shield proficiency? Home does the damage of a shield champions shield increase. Because it straight up breaks the size table right off the bat.

And plenty of other issues that people have raised.

Why are they doing stuff like this before addressing issues that have actually been raised?


Magus and arcane deed(precise strike) seems to come up often but with no clear solution as of yet.


Alright: In reference to the sniper sneak attack and "on your guard because you were shot once."

Explain to me how something like greater invisibility works for multiple sneak attacks in a round.

Because if being hidden isn't enough to allow you to continue to use the ability I don't understand how being invisible should work to do so -- especially in a melee situation.

EDIT: Ah, so you *could* still sneak attack, just not outside of the range limit, and without the bonus damage.

Which seems silly since even if they know you are there they still don't know *where* and from what angle they need to protect themselves.

I would instead offer that it should be a full round action to use this ability to snipe and attempt to remain hidden and if you succeed you can continue to use it.

This would support the idea of a sniper sniping and then continuing to snipe while hidden -- which is something snipers would do (though admittedly not every time or all the time).

And if someone spends the resources to be good at doing this -- well they did spend the resources right?

Even then it's still not a *great* option since it's only once per round.


Any ETA on when this Errata will be posted and if it has anything for the Bolt Ace?


Abraham spalding wrote:

Alright: In reference to the sniper sneak attack and "on your guard because you were shot once."

Explain to me how something like greater invisibility works for multiple sneak attacks in a round.

Because if being hidden isn't enough to allow you to continue to use the ability I don't understand how being invisible should work to do so -- especially in a melee situation.

Well, for one thing, it's gonna be a whole lot easier to dodge an arrow shot from 120 feet rather than 30 feet, or at least to turn so it hits your shoulder instead of your neck.

Two, if you have absolutely no idea anyone is about to shoot you, you are just really defenseless. If they are just invisible, you won't know where or when the arrow is coming, but at least you know that there is one coming, so you know you have to be on your toes, or at least not standing very still. That's why the sniper can score some extra damage when the target just has no idea, because they're not doing even the slightest bit of defensive maneuvering.


RumpinRufus wrote:
That's why the sniper can score some extra damage when the target just has no idea, because they're not doing even the slightest bit of defensive maneuvering.

Unless they're on guard for a different sniper. Then the second sniper gets his free damage once. The target is then somehow on guard for both snipers, despite not having any idea there's more than one.

Liberty's Edge

DominusMegadeus wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
That's why the sniper can score some extra damage when the target just has no idea, because they're not doing even the slightest bit of defensive maneuvering.
Unless they're on guard for a different sniper. Then the second sniper gets his free damage once. The target is then somehow on guard for both snipers, despite not having any idea there's more than one.

I totally see where you're coming from. The real "trigger" for not getting the ability seems to be purely in meta-game rather than in the world, and that sucks, especially since it makes it harder to rule how it might interact with other abilities and situations in that world.

Personally I would (house-)rule that it's not awareness of the sniper that does it, it's the quick movements and dashing for cover in response to the first shot that does it. It's a lot harder to precisely hit a target that's moving around a lot than one that was sitting there sipping his drink or casually walking. This would mean that the sniper might not get a good shot even if he's completely hidden as the target could otherwise be in combat, practicing his kung-fu, etc.


RumpinRufus wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Alright: In reference to the sniper sneak attack and "on your guard because you were shot once."

Explain to me how something like greater invisibility works for multiple sneak attacks in a round.

Because if being hidden isn't enough to allow you to continue to use the ability I don't understand how being invisible should work to do so -- especially in a melee situation.

Well, for one thing, it's gonna be a whole lot easier to dodge an arrow shot from 120 feet rather than 30 feet, or at least to turn so it hits your shoulder instead of your neck.

Two, if you have absolutely no idea anyone is about to shoot you, you are just really defenseless. If they are just invisible, you won't know where or when the arrow is coming, but at least you know that there is one coming, so you know you have to be on your toes, or at least not standing very still. That's why the sniper can score some extra damage when the target just has no idea, because they're not doing even the slightest bit of defensive maneuvering.

So I have no idea where it's coming from, but that's different than having no idea where it's coming from but it's closer and I have more idea than no idea, so I'm more defenseless than when I have no idea where it's coming from but it's farther away.


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Call me insatiable, but I'm actually way more interested in the Eldritch Scion getting a few patches.


Yeah, really this rule seems to imply that a person gets hit by an arrow fired by a sniper, chooses to ignore it and keep hacking away at the barbarian in front of them and now somehow they have gained some advantage that denies a sniper his bonus.

I get the whole argument that game mechanics can only be so complex but if they simply made the rule that the target of a sniper has the option to spend a move action to deny the sniper the bonus on sniping from extended range, the class feature would be a lot more useful and no more complicated than a lot of spells.

Then again the Slayer still isn't a spellcaster so I suppose fans of the class should take what they can get or play by house rules.


Zwordsman wrote:

Unless I'm missing something ?

animal focus, second animal focus, hunter tactics, and speak with master class abilities Traded for 1 temp, 1 permi does not feel like a fair trade. Its literally what a pre lv 8 hunter gets if his pet dies. .since none of those abilities are upgraded vs the normal. nor expanded. It might have been good to include some sorta of benefit to the polymorph (which serves no purpose other than looks. Whic hcan infact cause issues). Either some extra benefit. Or it should have been given access to any and all focus. I've seen some folks dipping vermin for the regen and letting their pet get killed off.

Personally I'd like to see a limit on how long the Hunter gets that benefit after the companion dies (24 hours should be enough) to stop exactly that sort of thing


Tentative Errata wrote: wrote:

Replace the Sniper archetype’s Deadly Range ability with “Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon’s first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper’s presence.”

Very nice.


Zwordsman wrote:

Unless I'm missing something ?

animal focus, second animal focus, hunter tactics, and speak with master class abilities Traded for 1 temp, 1 permi does not feel like a fair trade. Its literally what a pre lv 8 hunter gets if his pet dies. .since none of those abilities are upgraded vs the normal. nor expanded. It might have been good to include some sorta of benefit to the polymorph (which serves no purpose other than looks. Whic hcan infact cause issues). Either some extra benefit. Or it should have been given access to any and all focus. I've seen some folks dipping vermin for the regen and letting their pet get killed off.

I don't think the feral hunter gets a temp use of the focus. It just has the 1 permanent I think.


Chess Pwn wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:

Unless I'm missing something ?

animal focus, second animal focus, hunter tactics, and speak with master class abilities Traded for 1 temp, 1 permi does not feel like a fair trade. Its literally what a pre lv 8 hunter gets if his pet dies. .since none of those abilities are upgraded vs the normal. nor expanded. It might have been good to include some sorta of benefit to the polymorph (which serves no purpose other than looks. Whic hcan infact cause issues). Either some extra benefit. Or it should have been given access to any and all focus. I've seen some folks dipping vermin for the regen and letting their pet get killed off.
I don't think the feral hunter gets a temp use of the focus. It just has the 1 permanent I think.

One reason I hope someone can come in and explain it for me.

since feral hunter doesn't modify that portion while modifying the rest. and most archetypes that modify and not fully replace keep the parts not modified..
So I've had folks read it as they get the temp one and permi one. and some as they only get permi one.
But.. how is that a fair trade? The other stuff in the archetype seems fairly fair trade.
What they get in exchange isn't relative to what they lose.. So strange to me if they only get one permi one. It would've been more reasonable while they had second focus I suppose but thats not there now.
While losing that bump in power my previous builds come up a bit more short than before. having permi(or two permi) and the temp was nice because I could use them instead of money for some equipment which allowed for the more expensive AOMF stuff for wild shape, and still hav weapon and armour costs.

Granted I still think they should have access to all focus types, or gain aspects (Like a generic list of feat animal aspects; or claws, a bite, gore, slam. So they can more readily focus on natural attacks as they wild shape later)


Where is this FAQ Friday the PDT is referring to?


For the last few months they've released a FAQ on Fridays


Paladin of Baha-who? wrote:
Where is this FAQ Friday the PDT is referring to?

I wondered the same thing. They were official message board posts, But they haven't been added to the ACG FAQ. You can find them listed here.


They aren't FAQs, these are pre-release errata changes.

Designer

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Chess Pwn wrote:
They aren't FAQs, these are pre-release errata changes.

That's right. We have already finished our part of the process, so we've got some tentative errata I can share with you guys sometimes. In the absence of any high FAQ demands for ACG errata other than the three we covered last week, we figured we would share three cool improvements where we managed to fit additional powers in without messing up the pagination. These were all still based on issues with the ACG, they just aren't really appropriate to be FAQable.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
They aren't FAQs, these are pre-release errata changes.
That's right. We have already finished our part of the process, so we've got some tentative errata I can share with you guys sometimes. In the absence of any high FAQ demands for ACG errata other than the three we covered last week, we figured we would share three cool improvements where we managed to fit additional powers in without messing up the pagination. These were all still based on issues with the ACG, they just aren't really appropriate to be FAQable.

Hey Mark, I realize it isn't really something that generally happens, but can we get some of the backstory on how the sniper ability ended up where it is?

I feel like there is more here than perhaps I realize and I would be interested in knowing more about the process that put the ability where it is.

This is said with full realization that if such is provided there is nothing on my end to really... argue/comment on -- I'm interested in the process is all.


Matrix Dragon wrote:

Oh wow, the Feral Hunter has suddenly become pretty good. The inability to have a long duration summon to use those teamwork feats with was a huge design problem in the original version.

Yay, I need to run one of these now. Thanks for taking the time to make these archetypes more effective :D

Wow, I didnt' even notice that glaring problem with the feral hunter before it was mentioned by this thread!! Awesome that others noticed it, cause I FRICKIN" LOVE THE FERAL HUNTER!


Mark Seifter wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
They aren't FAQs, these are pre-release errata changes.
That's right. We have already finished our part of the process, so we've got some tentative errata I can share with you guys sometimes. In the absence of any high FAQ demands for ACG errata other than the three we covered last week, we figured we would share three cool improvements where we managed to fit additional powers in without messing up the pagination. These were all still based on issues with the ACG, they just aren't really appropriate to be FAQable.

Hey Mark can you answer my question of if the Bolt Ace will be Errata'd /FAQ soon?


Just one last comment on Blessing of the Faithful:

Isn't it a little weird that now, any time an Ecclesitheurge is part of the party, the standard protocol on Knowledge checks will go something like this:

Quote:

"This inscription says that the sword once belonged to Count Denkschwer. OK, NOBODY THINK ABOUT COUNT DENKSCHWER. Think about puppies. Playful puppies. We have to give time for Steve to use his blessings. Puppies. Puppies. Puppies."

(12 seconds pass while Steve casts Guidance and uses Blessing of the Faithful on Tim)

"OK, now Tim, you try to remember what you can about Count Denkschwer. Everyone else, puppies. Whatever you do, DO NOT think about Count Denkschwer. Except for Tim, Tim you better be thinking your hardest about Count Denkschwer right now."

(another 12 seconds pass while Steve casts Guidance and uses Blessings of the Faithful on the narrator)

"OK, my turn now. Dang, I can't say I've heard of him. Ok, just continue to NOT think about Count Denkschwer. He could be really important, and if you try to remember anything about him before you're blessed, you could be messing this up for all of us. Remember that really cute goldendoodle we saw on Mount Destruction? Think about that!"

(this continues until everyone has finished their Knowledge (nobility) checks)


Tentative Errata wrote:
Replace the Sniper archetype’s Deadly Range ability with “Deadly Sniper (Ex): At 2nd level, when the sniper makes an attack against a target who is within his weapon’s first range increment and completely unaware of his presence, that attack ignores the 30 foot range limit on ranged sneak attacks, and if it is a sneak attack, he adds his sniper level as a bonus on his sneak attack damage roll. After this first attack, the target is aware of the sniper’s presence.”

This is really nice.


Out of curiousity is there a special thread or anything for FAQ stuff? I haven't seen any, so i think i just miss them.
The only idea i have is to look at the pathfinder design team acc and look through it's posts/threads. (will be doing that shortly) edit: found a few via but doesnt' seem like a good way of finding it. Feel like having it's own thread line somewhere is more likely?

and thanks it's pretty rocking to see sneak peaks of epic.
Is this stuff being held for second printing? or is it going to be released on this, and on the main paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ website?
Mostly asking as a new game is coming soonish for me. so it might be worth postponing a bit if it is.

Silver Crusade

Dread Knight wrote:
Hey Mark can you answer my question of if the Bolt Ace will be Errata'd /FAQ soon?

Seconded, I need to update some stuff if we get some much needed errata on this beast.


On the top middle there is a bar that says "About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog My Account Help/FAQ" and it's grey. The Help/FAQ has a list of all the books and the FAQ's for each book.


rainzax wrote:

I run Stealth using the terminology from Rogue Glory. Stealth successfully used means you are Hidden (as opposed to Observed) and also have one of the three relative conditions:

*Undetected - your opponent has no idea you are Hidden nearby
*Detected - your opponent knows "somebody is Hidden nearby"
*Located - your opponent knows which square you occupy and can target it

In all three cases you have the benefits of 50% concealment, DX-denial, and +2 to hit. The special case for Invisibility, if you somehow manage to fail your Stealth roll, is that you are Located at worst, but never Observed.

The change to the Sniper ability is talking about Undetected.

That's obviously the intent of the change, but it really should allow the ability to work even if "Detected" as long as the Sniper has not been "Located."


Chess Pwn wrote:
On the top middle there is a bar that says "About Paizo Messageboards News Paizo Blog My Account Help/FAQ" and it's grey. The Help/FAQ has a list of all the books and the FAQ's for each book.

oh I knew about that list. I just didn't wanna dig through looking for new stuff.. I figured they had a thread somewhere for FAQ and discussions on it. Sorta like this except for official things. I haven't seen anything like that there. Reading through it each friday to look for new stuff doesn't seem very efficient for me.

It does show me rough month when it was updated though. So thats a start
thanks. already saw a few things i hadn't noticed.

Shadow Lodge Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8

RumpinRufus wrote:

Just one last comment on Blessing of the Faithful:

Isn't it a little weird that now, any time an Ecclesitheurge is part of the party, the standard protocol on Knowledge checks will go something like this:

Quote:

"This inscription says that the sword once belonged to Count Denkschwer. OK, NOBODY THINK ABOUT COUNT DENKSCHWER. Think about puppies. Playful puppies. We have to give time for Steve to use his blessings. Puppies. Puppies. Puppies."

(12 seconds pass while Steve casts Guidance and uses Blessing of the Faithful on Tim)

"OK, now Tim, you try to remember what you can about Count Denkschwer. Everyone else, puppies. Whatever you do, DO NOT think about Count Denkschwer. Except for Tim, Tim you better be thinking your hardest about Count Denkschwer right now."

(another 12 seconds pass while Steve casts Guidance and uses Blessings of the Faithful on the narrator)

"OK, my turn now. Dang, I can't say I've heard of him. Ok, just continue to NOT think about Count Denkschwer. He could be really important, and if you try to remember anything about him before you're blessed, you could be messing this up for all of us. Remember that really cute goldendoodle we saw on Mount Destruction? Think about that!"

(this continues until everyone has finished their Knowledge (nobility) checks)

Duh, that's what the Memory Subdomain is for!


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Thanks for fixing the sniper! And generally taking a second to buff/fix things that aren't working quite right.

Cheers!
Landon


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Oly wrote:
rainzax wrote:

I run Stealth using the terminology from Rogue Glory. Stealth successfully used means you are Hidden (as opposed to Observed) and also have one of the three relative conditions:

*Undetected - your opponent has no idea you are Hidden nearby
*Detected - your opponent knows "somebody is Hidden nearby"
*Located - your opponent knows which square you occupy and can target it

In all three cases you have the benefits of 50% concealment, DX-denial, and +2 to hit. The special case for Invisibility, if you somehow manage to fail your Stealth roll, is that you are Located at worst, but never Observed.

The change to the Sniper ability is talking about Undetected.

That's obviously the intent of the change, but it really should allow the ability to work even if "Detected" as long as the Sniper has not been "Located."

I believe the difference between knowing you are being fired upon (even if you can't see who or exactly wherefrom) and having no idea you are about to be shot at is pretty substantial.

Should the ability to take advantage of this nuanced situation be locked behind a class ability? Now that is a question worth asking that is beyond the scope of this thread.


Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

• Page 91—Change Bonded Holy Symbol to the following:

Bonded Holy Symbol (Su): At 3rd level, an ecclesitheurge forms a powerful bond with a holy symbol of his deity, which functions identically to a wizard’s bonded object except it can be used to cast cleric and domain spells (instead of wizard spells) and the ecclesitheurge can grant his bonded holy symbol only magic abilities appropriate for a holy symbol or a neck slot item.

PRD wrote:
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one spell that the wizard has in his spellbook and is capable of casting, even if the spell is not prepared. This spell is treated like any other spell cast by the wizard, including casting time, duration, and other effects dependent on the wizard's level. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast spells from the wizard's opposition schools (see arcane school).

Can the ecclesitheurge cast spells from any domain or just the ones the deity provides? Is the ecclesitheurge limited by a spellbook?

And thanks for the preview.


Am still very underwhelmed by the Ecclesitheurge..... bonded item is OK but very restrictive in terms of items

Blessing of the Faithful should have some scaling IMO.... +2 is pretty tame as you go up past lower levels. Yes its at will but thats as a standard action, single target and lasting for 1 round only.... realistically the only way to get decent usage out of it is by using channels to extend.. which have been reduced by 1D6.

Disappointing Paizo..... this insistence on tying the cleric to his channels is so restrictive and it creates other probs too. For example in this case an Ecclesitheurge cant really take a half decent PRC like Exalted because it would kill his channels stone dead..... meaning that the Ecclesitheurge would not only lose out on channels but also therefore making decent use of the Blessing ability....

A golden opportunity to sort out the tired cleric class gone I fear.... :(((


Zwordsman wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
I don't think the feral hunter gets a temp use of the focus. It just has the 1 permanent I think.

One reason I hope someone can come in and explain it for me.

since feral hunter doesn't modify that portion while modifying the rest. and most archetypes that modify and not fully replace keep the parts not modified..
So I've had folks read it as they get the temp one and permi one. and some as they only get permi one.
But.. how is that a fair trade? The other stuff in the archetype seems fairly fair trade.
What they get in exchange isn't relative to what they lose.. So strange to me if they only get one permi one. It would've been more reasonable while they had second focus I suppose but thats not there now.

Well, the Feral Hunter's animal focus is also a polymorph effect, which could have some interesting side effects


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rainzax wrote:
Oly wrote:
rainzax wrote:

I run Stealth using the terminology from Rogue Glory. Stealth successfully used means you are Hidden (as opposed to Observed) and also have one of the three relative conditions:

*Undetected - your opponent has no idea you are Hidden nearby
*Detected - your opponent knows "somebody is Hidden nearby"
*Located - your opponent knows which square you occupy and can target it

In all three cases you have the benefits of 50% concealment, DX-denial, and +2 to hit. The special case for Invisibility, if you somehow manage to fail your Stealth roll, is that you are Located at worst, but never Observed.

The change to the Sniper ability is talking about Undetected.

That's obviously the intent of the change, but it really should allow the ability to work even if "Detected" as long as the Sniper has not been "Located."

I believe the difference between knowing you are being fired upon (even if you can't see who or exactly wherefrom) and having no idea you are about to be shot at is pretty substantial.

Should the ability to take advantage of this nuanced situation be locked behind a class ability? Now that is a question worth asking that is beyond the scope of this thread.

Knowing you are being attacked is not enough to retain your dex bonus though -- I would argue just for the full round single attack (with ability to hide afterward) that allows sneak attack on the attack in the weapon's first range increment would be the right balance.

Sure it's a little harder to shoot someone that knows someone hostile is in the area but it's not as hard as hitting someone that knows you are right beside them even if they can't see you, and that's supported by the idea you are only getting one attack.


Andy Brown wrote:


Well, the Feral Hunter's animal focus is also a polymorph effect, which could have some interesting side effects

Well only thr appearances is polymorph the mechabical becits are not. I assune so as not to conflict wildshape.

But what kinda side effects?

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