Focused Trance (Ex): You can enter a deep meditation, blocking out visual and auditory stimuli and allowing you to concentrate on a single problem, philosophical issue, or memory. This trance lasts 1d6 rounds, during which time you can only take move actions. During this period, you gain a bonus equal to your level on all saves against sonic effects and gaze attacks. When you come out of your trance, you may make a single Intelligence-based skill check with a +20 circumstance bonus. You may enter your focused trance a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.
_____________________________________________________________
Should this ability be limited to things that are known to someone, somewhere? Put another way, should this ability permit the character to learn things for which there would otherwise be no skill check?
For example, an Oracle of Lore enters an ancient tomb, sealed and "forgotten for uncounted millennia" and enters a trance to learn more about the people who built it. Should he learn that no one knows who built it or why, or should he learn the name of the forgotten tribe that built the tomb and why they buried their now-undead king in that place, facts known to no living person and written of in no text?
|
It does what it says it does.
The DC of knowledge checks reflect the obscurity of the information gained.
It is a LORE oracle, lore may be passed down regardless of what was written or how long dead a person or culture was. Don't limit or punish a character for using an ability to do exactly what it is meant to do.
Well that's the question, isn't it? What is the intention.
Take the example of a character with just a straight-up Knowledge (History) skill in the same place. Should that character without this special ability get a roll to know the place's history if the adventure does not provide a DC and specifically says that it's been completely forgotten?
If not, then I don't think the guy with Focused Trance should get a roll, either.
|
I would say yes they both get a roll. The amount of information and the information itself is up to you a GM to have at the ready even if you need to make something up on the fly.
Just like Fomsie said, don't punish a character for using its abilities like they are supposed to be used. Focused Trance should not be limited to what other people know. Its a mystical state that should allow people to know things nobody should.
If the module says there's no way to succeed:
1) It's a weak module that needs work
2) There's no way to succeed. Both guys get rolls, but the DC is too high for either one to hit.
|
|
If the module says there's no way to succeed:
1) It's a weak module that needs work
2) There's no way to succeed. Both guys get rolls, but the DC is too high for either one to hit.
I agree with you there.
I have only used a few modules myself (I prefer custom settings and modules) and haven't come across any that say "There is no way to succeed" in those words or any other. If it doesn't imply that it is completely impossible then the GM should at least come up with something so that a player with said "Focused Trance" or similar abilities should at least get some information out of. That's just my opinion on it though. I know there are many other GM's out there that are so strict in their interpretations that it makes it difficult to enjoy the full spectrum of your character.
It is just a +20 bonus. Some things cannot be known through anything like a lore check. They may know everything there is to know about the tomb, but not things that are not known. Also, they may still know things that are incorrect but accepted as fact. It could be that everyone thinks the temple was by this tribe because it is in the tribe's lands and covered in the tribe's iconography and the tribe says it has always been their's... but it was actually built by someone else. If no one ever figured it out, then how could a knowledge check figure it out?
You can only be an expert on things you've learned and this isn't a divination spell or a means of beseeching a higher power for information.
|
|
Even incorrect knowledge accepted as facts can still be something to someone who wants to feel useful. Stuff such as that can also add a fun element of roleplaying into a game. As a Oracle of Lore you have more than likely learned many strange and otherwise unknown facts which could be attributed to a "lucky roll" with a good knowledge check. As fomsie said Lore can be passed down regardless of what was written or how long dead the people or culture were.
I would say handle it the way you want to handle it Tarondor. Give them a bit of obscure/vague information if they roll really well (whether it is false or true) and see where they take it. That way at least the player doesn't feel completely shafted on the deal.
Or if you feel that there is no way in the nine hells that they could ever glean a single drop of information out of the roll then just tell them. It's impossible to know without using means greater than what your knowledge could provide. Telling them that though will probably lead them to trying even harder to figure it out (unless they are one of those I play just to play kind of people that really don't care one way or another). Kind of like hanging a carrot in front of a horse :D
I tend to agree with MurphysParadox, but I'm not sure that's necessarily at odds with what Shae'ura-Drae and mplindustries are saying.
Let's consider two real-world examples:
1) Researcher wishes to know the details of Roman rituals for worshiping the Bona Dea at the Aventine Hill and how that differed from those of the related cult of the Magna Mater. That's pretty obscure, but a DC can be assigned. (I'll go ahead and call it a DC 25). In this case, both our regular researcher (who has a Knowledge (History) of +10) and our oracle with the +20 are both going to get a shot at knowing the truth.
2) Researcher wishes to unravel the mysteries of the ancient Cretan form of writing known as Linear-A. This is something that has never been translated and of which there are only a few examples. No amount of research is going to help our first researcher, because the knowledge just isn't out there to learn. Should our oracle be able to access this knowledge?
The central question here is as MurphysParadox puts it: is it merely an enhanced intelligence-based skill check or is it a form of divination?
Don't get me wrong. I -love- the fact that my player's character has this ability. It allows me to feed him all the cool information players often miss.
The only question is "What are its limits?"
Knowing the facts about this particular tomb (in my original question) will have no effect on the game either way.
|
|
I imagine when put that way it would be closer to divination then. But then I begin to think that if given the chance to study or if he/she already had a chance to study the very few examples of Linear-A and compare them to other writing forms I could see her being able to use the ability to make an appropriate Linguistics check at +20 to try to crack the system and figure out how it works. Giving said oracle the ability to either fail at deciphering or be the one who FINALLY breaks the coding needed to decipher the unknown language.
Translating Linear-A isn't the right comparison for a knowledge check in this situation. It'd be more like looking at some script in Linear-A and guessing that it was tax records. With similar limitations, IMO.
Suppose the oracle has a +10 in the skill, rolls a 20 and adds +20 for 50 total. That is a superhuman result. It should give superhuman results. Not the name of the tribe if it is forgotten, but perhaps there are invisible signs that someone walled up an entrance here, that these scratches might be related to wardings used against the evil dead in another culture, and that no one nearby will know anything about it.
|
|
Yeh the Linear-A line of thought was a bad comparison but only answered because it was asked.
My thoughts on the word "forgotten" as a GM doesn't always mean it is completely forgotten with no possibility of finding out the information. The quote he originally gave was "forgotten for uncounted millenia". So in theory there could have been information on such a tomb stored somewhere.
It is entirely possible that an Oracle of Lore could have at some point in time in all of her training come across a small tidbit of information on something or heard of something that could be useful in determining and origin or at least hint in the right direction of finding more information.
Like AVR said it may not reveal the name of the tribe necessarily but a good enough result could at least give some small hint that could lead to a greater revelation in the long run. It might even lead to a dead end but at least he/she can get some type of clue to work with.
It doesn't have to be and probably won't be a "game changing" reveal BUT it could be if used as a plot hook for future reference and scenarios.
Thanks for all your opinions!
If you're interested in what information I gave my players, I've put it below under a spoiler.
It is (or perhaps was) the burial place of an important person from that long-ago age. Not a king, but a powerful warrior or priest or shaman. The scenes of village life were intended to remind the spirits of the dead that they were, in fact, dead. But they were also intended to comfort the dead in their long sleep, reminders of their brief time under the sun. Such barrows were usually laid out in a straight line (often aligned with the rising sun on some important date), or for a more important person, the tomb might be laid out in a cruciform (cross-like) pattern. The side passages of a cruciform tomb would be where the familes and retainers of the great man were buried, the tomb remaining open until the last of them died, and then walled up by their descendants. Thus the relatives and servants of the great man could continue to serve him and keep him company in the underworld. The structure of the eight-sided entry chamber suggests to Faisul that this tomb will be of the cruciform type. The great man will be buried at the far end, with his retainers down the right- and left-hand passages. There are also signs that indicate that the "great man", whoever he was, was not a priest or shaman, but instead a great warrior.
Such tombs were known for their wealth of burial hoards, and thus were frequently the targets of thieves. For this reason, many ancient tribes trapped their tombs with deadly pitfalls and even magical wards.
This tomb has been open for decades, possibly resulting from an earthquake. But the erstwhile entrance was well-hidden enough that it is possible no one else has found the tomb in the intervening years. Or it might have been thoroughly looted.