RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Okay, the player definitely should have had their chronicles/ITS with them. Bad on them for that.
But if the cold weather gear was important enough to check chronicles for, you should have done that before the game, not during it. I'm also really curious why a character already having cold weather gear makes you so suspicious in the first place.
Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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That's why I put everything on the ITS. So there are no questions about it. That is just me and I do not expect every one else to do it. I also have the inventory section split up into 2 sections. The top half is what I have on person. Bottom is what I have at my "house/loft/hut" or whatever you want to call it so I don't have cold weather gear adding to my weight in the desert.
Like I said that is just me.
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If its not on chronicle, Inventory sheet, or character sheet, it doesn't exist.
If they declare they have an item that boosts a save, they should be able to provide documentation. I wouldn't take their sheets because that can be considered accusatory, but they won't get the benefit of the item unless they can prove it.
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But, maybe I am treating it too seriously and players should indeed be able to ignore the warnings about weather. I don't know.
It's not really wrong or right. Some GMs are more lenient than others in this area. I feel like such things should be planned for by experienced Pathfinders. If they have to take a little nonlethal cold damage to encourage that, so much the better. You can bet my characters get endure elements spells when they see the need for them.
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Venture-Captain, Canada—Manitoba—Winnipeg
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I have not posted previously and will regret posting now but,
You had every right to ask to see the player's sheets. It is not being nit-picky to expect players to follow the rules of PFS. And for a player to say that the game is stupid because they can't follow the very basic steps to playing it by the rules tells me they lack maturity.
I've looked over a player's character sheets or ITS on occasion, generally when I see something suspect like having a Flaming weapon at level 2 (seen that one three times, same mistake made every time) or when they can't answer basic questions like "What kind of armor are you wearing?" Just recently, in doing so, I saw so many mistakes that it would have been easier to hand him a pregen than to fix it. I did neither. I told him to have it fixed for next time, confirmed that his stats were about what they should be and moved on.
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Is that a jerk move?
IMHO yes. It feels like a "gotcha!" moment. Did the player forget to buy it? I like to think even if the player forgot it, the PC would have noticed as the weather started getting colder.
Well, in the OP's favor... he did actually ask the players specifically if they wanted to purchase cold weather gear. None of them did, so therefore it's their own fault for not planning ahead properly. A seasoned adventurer would be much better prepared and know what sort of gear he/she would require. So I don't agree that it's a jerk move.
Personally I do not see the problem with a GM implementing the rules of PFS if they so desire. It's a living campaign and such types of campaign require very specific rules to keep everyone on an even playing field and to avoid cheating. Which believe it or not, people will do. Shocking, I know.
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Honestly, I had an issue when running a scenario when I asked to see ITSes and chronicle sheets before the game started to check for some specific, scenario-dependent things, and several players did not have ITSes. One didn't even bring their chronicles! I wasn't trying to pull a gotcha! I just wanted to know if any character had referenced chronicle sheets or anything like without letting the cat out of the bag. I don't think people were cheating at all, nor do I want to spend all my time trying to catch bookkeeping errors, but it's an issue when there's a legitimate need to reference something and the documentation for it simply doesn't exist.
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That's actually one of the biggest problems the inventory tracking sheets have caused. Before that it was simple: if it's not on the character sheet you don't have it.
Now I hear the refrain of "it's less than 25 gp so I didn't have to write it down" over and over again. I have met several players who treat this as "I have every item that costs less than 25 gp." Generally new players who genuinely misunderstand.
I treat it as if they don't have it if it isn't written down *somewhere*
I GMed 7 sessions at a convention last weekend. I audited every character played at my tables. The players with no chronicles, a character with a 24-point buy (apparently not audited before level 5), multiple characters who didnt have all their feats chosen, and several instances of buying items before reaching the required fame were all nuisances; but by far the most common issue was players who didn't have an inventory tracking sheet. I don't think any of the tables started less than 45 minutes late.
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Does anyone *actually* inspect inventory sheets?
I have never encountered anyone who did during game time. I'm not sure how I would feel... scratch that.... It would bug me if someone took game time to check my paper work during a game, it would bug me even more if I had to wait during a game while someone checked the other players paperwork. Enough that I would think twice about playing with that judge again.
As I mentioned above, I do. I do not to bug players but because no one else is doing it. And because no one else is doing it, no one is finding the errors. I had a litany of issues above but in only one case did I suspect deliberate malfeasance. (Just suspect, I did not accuse the player of anything.) Players make mistakes. And in many cases those issues compound.
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Can't you just spot-check? Check like one thing such as "checking for correct point-buy today" and then audit just that? It seems like holding the game up for 45 minutes to check everything is a good way to have players excuse themselves and go to other tables. However, maybe everyone was cool about it. I dunno.
wow... 45 minutes game time? checking paperwork?
I didn't want it to take 45 minutes. The audits of correctly built characters take about 45 seconds each. Quick glance at stats, HP, AC, saves, weapon damage to make sure nothing seems out of range, look at weight vs. strength, then scan the ITS.
It is the incorrect characters that slow it down. When there is no ITS. When the monk is wearing armor and still adding wis to AC. When I see one of those things I bear down because 19/20 times there is something else wrong with the character.
Most of the time was spent with the players fixing their characters, not the actual auditing.
This is really something that I'd rather NOT be spending my session time on.
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and 3 to 5 other people at the table are impacted by this right? Everyone else has to wait while this is done?Can't you just spot-check? Check like one thing such as "checking for correct point-buy today" and then audit just that? It seems like holding the game up for 45 minutes to check everything is a good way to have players excuse themselves and go to other tables. However, maybe everyone was cool about it. I dunno.wow... 45 minutes game time? checking paperwork?I didn't want it to take 45 minutes. The audits of correctly built characters take about 45 seconds each. Quick glance at stats, HP, AC, saves, weapon damage to make sure nothing seems out of range, look at weight vs. strength, then scan the ITS.
It is the incorrect characters that slow it down. When there is no ITS. When the monk is wearing armor and still adding wis to AC. When I see one of those things I bear down because 19/20 times there is something else wrong with the character.
Most of the time was spent with the players fixing their characters, not the actual auditing.
This is really something that I'd rather NOT be spending my session time on.
Yup.
It sucks because it comes down to 3 choices:
1. Let the illegal characters play and fix them after the session.
2. Make the players with illegal characters play pregens and fix the characters after the session.
3. Fix the characters on the spot before starting the table.
I never do 1. 2 is my preferred solution at FLGS game days. I have found the hard way that at conventions 3 is somewhat counter-intuitively less time-consuming and disruptive than 2. (Explanation: the player was planning on playing that character in later sessions and the lack of XP woukd keep them from being eligible to play in the next slot. They refuse to leave the table, complain to the convention organizer. The organizer asks "can't they just fix the character?" in an attempt to appease the paying customer, and that ends up being what happens.)
I'm happy to discuss this more but I've got sleep and work so it will be several hours before I can respond.
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Allowing infractions to slide indefinately will eventually end up enabling cheating. Yes, often it's best to assume (or pretend to believe) that the player made innocent mistakes.
For those times when, in your opinion as the GM, corrective action is merited, something should still be done. Audits are possible but time consuming, so that serious drawback for a 4 hour slot has to be weighed with serious thought. It's not only correcting the wrongdoer, but punishing the other players who are innocent of wrongdoing by wasting their time.
In a situation like the one presented in the OP, I'd recommend two courses of action. One, let it slide with a warning. If that, again in solely your opinion, is insufficient then I'd go with option two. The player does not have the required ITS, so the player does not have a legal PC for a PFS table. Hand him a pregen to play for the rest of the night. Death and conditions suffered by the pregen have to be bought off of the registered PFS character as normal for pregen play, if applicible.
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This wouldn't really help with the OP's particular issue, but I occasionally use self-audit cards. It's not fool-proof, but it lets me take a glance for anything out of whack (like multiple competence bonuses or a wildly expensive item at low levels).
Here's what I'm currently using. I print them out on 4x6 cards and hand them out as players sit down. I have the players do it while I'm getting everything ready so it doesn't take any extra time.
If you know there's something you plan to check (like whether someone's played an earlier scenario or whether they have a particular item) it would be nice to remind players ahead of time to have their chronicles and ITS handy. They should anyway, but a reminder leaves them aware of their responsibility and puts it squarely on their shoulders. Obviously this is less feasible at something like a convention where you can't easily contact the players prior to the game.
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Well, in the OP's favor... he did actually ask the players specifically if they wanted to purchase cold weather gear. None of them did....Actually, he listed the conversation as thus
[i]ME: "Do you have a cold weather outfit on? That would boost your save."
Nosig, with all respect, that's not fair. You left out the entire 4 lines of conversation that preceded that. Those 4 lines of conversation are in my original text, at the start of this topic. Please don't exclude context to make a point, especially if the context would materially affect the point.
Faelyn is right -- I did ask at the start of the game, flat-out, for people to purchase cold weather gear. It is right in the post for all to see.
and if I had been at the game, and had a PC without cold weather gear, I would have listed it on the sticky sheet that I keep my in game expenses on, that is stuck on my PC. And not spent game time to say "I'm buying a tasteful outfit of grey leathers, trimmed in white fur. It goes with my existing boots, and will have slits for my weapons to pass thru, as well as tie rings to clip my pack to....".
But then I normally have it on my spread sheet, and can show you if you need to see it. The part that get's me, is that I, personally, am loosing game time waiting on some jerk to go thru his personal files to find a note that his PC spent 8 GP. Think how you are treating the other players (who hopefully did it right)... "Sorry guys - you have to wait while this cheater finds his paperwork"... and if/when he finds it, does he become less of a jerk? because he didn't buy it?
That's why I said, can I just buy everyone an outfit at the start of the scenario? Having to spend game time to do paperwork is ... less fun then liistening to the adventure unfold.
Given that the OP already responded to your post, I won't say any further on that. I will say this though. Good for you! You are a player who follows the rules outlined in the PFS Guide, that's good!
As far as the rest of your snarky post... the OP isn't stating you, or ay of his players for that matter, are required to go into a long, in-depth description of the gear. He simply asked his players if they wanted to purchase appropriate equipment for the scenario and the environment they would be going into. The environment was also highly suggested prior to the group leaving their city! He is also not suggesting that you could not buy everything for the rest of the party... So please stop throwing things out there that have nothing to do with the situation.
Also, I do not see that asking a player to prove he has a piece of equipment that she/he claims to have is not being jerky. It should take all of 30 seconds. "Oh, sure. It's right here on my ITS. See?" Done! Game moves on. Here's the rub of it: By not enforcing the rules, the GMs and VCs send a message to everyone that says "Well, it's okay to break the rules." So where does is it stop after that?
The bottom lines is this. PFS has very specific rules laid out for a reason. No one is forcing anyone to play PFS and if folks do not like the rules laid out by Paizo for their living campaign... Then don't participate!
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On a similar note, would you consider it a Jerk Move to prevent a PC casting a Create Pit spell if they don't have a 10gp miniature shovel on their ITS/Character sheet - in the middle of combat, where the success of the spell could have significant impact?
That's a judgment call for me. For low-level characters of new players, they often don't realize that they need to buy material components or foci. I will usually allow them to mark off 10 GP, write the shovel on their ITS, and successfully cast the spell. I also ask them to check their other spells after the scenario and buy the necessary foci and however many multiples of the material components they want.
At the higher tiers, it's completely different. Running Siege of the Diamond City at level 12-13 last year I had (at the same table) a wizard try to cast stoneskin and a cleric cast true seeing without possessing the material components.
I don't audit for material components or foci beforehand, that I do when a player casts a spell. And if the scenario allows it I absolutely let even the high tiers go to a shop mid-scenario and buy missing gear. Just not mid-encounter :)
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I tend to not inspect chronicle sheets or character sheets unless something is out of whack enough to make me exceptionally suspicious, I.E. someone has an item over 10K before level 5 or they're making every single save and hitting with every single attack.
My girlfriend is exceptionally detail oriented and will usually point out to me when one of her characters or my characters is missing something small like that, but I guess since I'm rather scatterbrained I give other players a fairly wide leeway and will just remind them that the tiny things still need to appear somewhere if they're necessary.
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Also, I do not see that asking a player to prove he has a piece of equipment that she/he claims to have is not being jerky. It should take all of 30 seconds. "Oh, sure. It's right here on my ITS. See?" Done! Game moves on. Here's the rub of it: By not enforcing the rules, the GMs and VCs send a message to everyone that says "Well, it's okay to break the rules." So where does is it stop after that?The only problem with that is that you're not required to track such cheap purchases on the ITS. It's also not clear, at least to me, if you're required to have them all listed on a chronicle instead. And in practice, I've rarely seen GMs actually track gear on Chronicles - written in after the fact by players if anything.
The only place you're likely to find cold weather gear is on the character sheet. Which is fine by me. It shuts down the "I have an unlimited supply of all < 20gp items" thing, which is probably sufficient.
Mind you, not having chronicles and ITS at the table is a violation of the rules and that much is definitely worth checking on.
This is true, thejeff. That is one of those rules that to which I do not agree. As others have pointed out, given those rules a player could simply have an unlimited supply of alchemical weapons. Personally I feel that the PFS Guide could really benefit from having a dedicated section to implicitly spell out exactly what paperwork is required from a player instead of having it hidden in different rules. That way it's less confusing for some newer players.
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This is true, thejeff. That is one of those rules that to which I do not agree. As others have pointed out, given those rules a player could simply have an unlimited supply of alchemical weapons. Personally I feel that the PFS Guide could really benefit from having a dedicated section to implicitly spell out exactly what paperwork is required from a player instead of having it hidden in different rules. That way it's less confusing for some newer players.Also, I do not see that asking a player to prove he has a piece of equipment that she/he claims to have is not being jerky. It should take all of 30 seconds. "Oh, sure. It's right here on my ITS. See?" Done! Game moves on. Here's the rub of it: By not enforcing the rules, the GMs and VCs send a message to everyone that says "Well, it's okay to break the rules." So where does is it stop after that?The only problem with that is that you're not required to track such cheap purchases on the ITS. It's also not clear, at least to me, if you're required to have them all listed on a chronicle instead. And in practice, I've rarely seen GMs actually track gear on Chronicles - written in after the fact by players if anything.
The only place you're likely to find cold weather gear is on the character sheet. Which is fine by me. It shuts down the "I have an unlimited supply of all < 20gp items" thing, which is probably sufficient.
Mind you, not having chronicles and ITS at the table is a violation of the rules and that much is definitely worth checking on.
Even IF the items purchased are less than 25 GP, the gold expense MUST show up on the chronicle as gold spent. If they don't have it marked on the ITS, then they should be able indicate which chronicle it came from.
Personally, I'm one of those that puts everything on the ITS and works from there. It's a LOT easier to track your items that way.
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I believe material components less than 25 or 50gp are assumed by rule and don't need to be tracked, and have nothing to do with the ITS.
There is definitely a fine line balancing act between making sure everything is legit and being over officious.
But if you are finding tons of mistakes like the anecdote above, then you need to continue to be vigilant. The players will ultimately be better off for it in the long run.
The only suggestion I'd make to the above auditor, is to not stop play till the character(s) is(are) legal, but to let them be updating as you continue play.45 minutes is a huge chunk of time at a convention that may only have a five, or worse a four, hour slot.
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I believe material components less than 25 or 50gp are assumed by rule and don't need to be tracked, and have nothing to do with the ITS.
This I've never heard before...if it's not negligible (under 1gp and part of a spell component pouch), then as far as I'm concerned you need to have bought it before you left town if you want to cast a spell I know requires one...
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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For me the conversation might have gone something like this....ME: "Do you have a cold weather outfit on? That would boost your save."
PLAYER: "Yes."
ME: "Good, but I didn't hear you say you were buying one earlier. You got it in an earlier game? If not we'll need to be sure to include it on this one......
The time to do that was back in town, not once you're already in the mountains.
"The scenario starts with an overland trip of a month.....
....(after the VC briefing)....
"Did you buy 30 days of rations? No?....
"All PCs died in route due to lack of food.... Easiest TPK I've ever run."
You know, there's a lot of hand-waving, getting characters to and from the adventure locations. (At the end of "Rescue at Azlant Ridge", the party needs to get back from the heart of the jungle, having been teleported in, with no maps of the area.) (The "Quest for Perfection" series takes place on the other side of the world. If PCs are playing other adventures in between, it could mean that they walk across the Crown of the World -- a trek that takes months, and was the subject of its own AP module -- six times.)
And even if a GM were to enforce rations to get you to the adventure, there would be opportunities along the way to buy them, just as the OP gave the characters opportunities to buy cold weather gear. If the PCs continually refused to buy food for the journey, or have the cleric use magic to obtain food, then yes, they would all die.
I don't see that as relevant to this discussion at all.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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As ealier stated if a wizard want to cast a spell like create pit, they need to have the material companant which is a shovel costing 10 gp.
Now the rule does state that you only need to put purchases of only 25gp or more on the ITS. But if it does not show up on any chronicles stating he purchased that 10gp shovel I, as a GM, will not let them cast it.
How ever, I would offer some wiggle room for newer players and let them know I will let him cast it, only if he purchases the 10gp shovel right there on the spot and I would have to notate it on the chronicle sheet for the scnario.
But I do have a wizard who loves pits and such. So I make sure to buy 5 shovels at a time and put it on the ITS so i can keep track of how many shovels i have left, since the casting of the spell does "annihilate" the substances used.
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As ealier stated if a wizard want to cast a spell like create pit, they need to have the material companant which is a shovel costing 10 gp.
Now the rule does state that you only need to put purchases of only 25gp or more on the ITS. But if it does not show up on any chronicles stating he purchased that 10gp shovel I, as a GM, will not let them cast it.
How ever, I would offer some wiggle room for newer players and let them know I will let him cast it, only if he purchases the 10gp shovel right there on the spot and I would have to notate it on the chronicle sheet for the scnario.
But I do have a wizard who loves pits and such. So I make sure to buy 5 shovels at a time and put it on the ITS so i can keep track of how many shovels i have left, since the casting of the spell does "annihilate" the substances used.
So the spell component thing cheaper than 25gp must be from a previous iteration of the game. I don't play spellcasters very often, so I probably missed this change. But in Pathfinder, any spell that lists a specific spell component cost, must be specifically purchased.
Not listing something on the ITS (because its less than 25gp) does not mean you get to assume you have it. It has to be listed on some inventory of items for that character. Otherwise the character doesn't have it.
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But I do have a wizard who loves pits and such. So I make sure to buy 5 shovels at a time and put it on the ITS so i can keep track of how many shovels i have left, since the casting of the spell does "annihilate" the substances used.
The shovel is a focus component, not a material component. Foci are not consumed on use, you just have to have one.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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But I do have a wizard who loves pits and such. So I make sure to buy 5 shovels at a time and put it on the ITS so i can keep track of how many shovels i have left, since the casting of the spell does "annihilate" the substances used.The shovel is a focus component, not a material component. Foci are not consumed on use, you just have to have one.
I've been playing that wrong for while then. Whoops!
Thanks for the catch though. Should save me on some gold.|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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On a similar note, would you consider it a Jerk Move to prevent a PC casting a Create Pit spell if they don't have a 10gp miniature shovel on their ITS/Character sheet - in the middle of combat, where the success of the spell could have significant impact?
That's a brilliant point I've forgotten about. I am totally using that next time someone tries to use pits to bypass the encounter. I hate those things.
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As ealier stated if a wizard want to cast a spell like create pit, they need to have the material companant which is a shovel costing 10 gp.
Now the rule does state that you only need to put purchases of only 25gp or more on the ITS. But if it does not show up on any chronicles stating he purchased that 10gp shovel I, as a GM, will not let them cast it.
So the current version of the rules says that purchases of 25 gp or more must be tracked on the ITS, with only a summary gold cost appearing on each chronicle, but purchases of less than 25gp must be listed separately on the chronicle sheet?
And for consumable ones, found and crossed out and initialed by the GM when used?
No...only the gold has to be accounted for on the chronicle in the "gold spent" box. Mark the item on the character sheet and done.
Consumables are tracked by the player, but again, purchase expense must be accounted for on the chronicle (or ITS as appropriate) as a gold expense.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown
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Like I mentioned earlier, I put everything on the ITS. I also put it on the chronicle sheets to show i have the correct Fame for it. And to keep track of when I bought it.
Personally I would treat it like my arrows and put it on the ITS any way. Put down how many I bought. And scratch out those lovely little boxes next to the item line as I let them fly.
The other method could work. As well. I usually have the GM sign off on a one time use boon. As for other items. Make a note of it in play and wait untill after the scenario to have them GM initial it.